Bookshelf speaker pairing with subwoofer

@m20j201 

  m20j, I was on a similar search for over a year. My room size is 12 x 18' similar to yours. After thorough researching,  and in some cases, also listening to several  stand mount (bookshelf) speakers to integrate with my subs, I came to a choice that for me ( I emphasize for me) stood above all the rest. Keep in mind this essay is only my personal, subjective opinion and they all were great speakers that I was considering, but one in particular gave me the best presentation of the type of audio qualities that I was seeking. Here was my experience for what it's worth and hopefully it may give you some things to think about that may help in your journey to make the best choice for you. That choice may be totally different than mine or any else's on this forum. There is no right or wrong, best or better. Just differences and you need to learn what differences appeal most to you and fit your system. Everyone on this post is giving you very helpful guidance from their experiences. Be careful in how you put it all together though, including what I am writing about as well. In other words, take your time and do your research. Make your own kind of music (good title for a song, ha)! 

I looked at Magico, Focal, Sonus Faber, KEF, SVS, B&W, several boutique brands, Klipsch, Paradigm and many more. The clear winner for me, and this was after reading everything about them and watching every video on YouTube multiple times, was the ATC SCM7, sealed box stand mount. I purchased my ATC SCM7 from TMR Audio and it was an exceptional experience with that vendor. Fortunately, on receipt of the speaker, my critical listening evaluations on all sorts of music (Innuos streamed  and CD, Chord DAC), exceeded in satisfying  all of the key audio qualities I was looking for which also corroborated the expert and user reviews. Music genre covered Rock, Jazz, Classical, Country, Heavy Metal, Alternative, Folk, Easy listening, Vocals and Instrumentals, old and new material)

The ATC SCM7, based on my subjective listening excelled in clarity (micro and macro details), impeccable mid range realism, crisp and clear, with very realistic musical  tonality that was equal or better than the best speakers I was able to audition (again for my preferences). Vocals and instruments sounded just like they should. I never heard mid range like this from other speakers, even though my other speakers produce exceptional midrange. The SCM7 I simply unique and appealed to me. Others may be turned off and not desire such an analytical speaker. It's analytical but imo very musical, not clinical.  It was realism to me. Sublime to me.  It yielded very smooth beautiful highs that never were harsh, linear and with superb dynamics, the best center imaging I ever heard in my room with my electronics, a wide soundstage and overall excellent imaging. Many speakers out there can do the same or better. It didn't matter; I was hearing imo, for the first time, what midrange really sounds like. It just sounded more "real" is what I am trying to say.  Most important these quality ATC drivers (specialty drivers hand made in England  by ATC) gave me the engaging and often emotional and/or exciting  experience I was looking for. I will explain later why they are not meant for everyone though; there are countless outstanding bookshelf speakers out there so I am just giving you what I experienced and suggest you do your own research on all speakers you are considering and include the ATC SCM7's. Someone else in this thread mentioned the ATC speakers sealed box benefits. Kudos for those comments.  Know what you are looking for in the type of audio strengths you desire. Confirm that your electronics can drive these speakers ( a bit more on that later). 

As I alluded to above, there are countless other stand mount (bookshelf) speakers out there that are truly excellent. I am not saying the ATC SCM7 is better than the rest. That would be nonsensical of me.  They are not better than this or that, or are the best. They do something special so it depends on what the buyer is seeking.  I am pointing out differences and you need to decide if they align with what you are looking for.  To all reading this forum, your stand mount speakers are all "the best", for you and your room and system and preferences,  if they are giving you what you enjoy in audio. I never view one speaker better than another; simply different and subjective to everyone's personal listening preferences.  In my case here,  the SCM7 worked for me and exceeded my expectations.

The  ATC SCM7  is not a full range bookshelf speaker; nor is it warm, romantic or laid back. It is limited in bass (61hz); however, its's bass is tight, fast, and excellent. It does reach below  50 hz but is dropping off quickly in that zone. This didn't matter one bit to me; in fact it was one of my goals. I purposely didn't want  bookshelf speakers with a port or extended bass; I wanted pure midrange and well presented highs. I wanted a sealed box. Try and find one. Magico makes one (10k), ATC makes them. I couldn't find others but there are likely some others out there. Nothing wrong with ports either; they are fine and can sound great! I own some and they are excellent. 

The SCM7 is an acoustic suspension type of speaker. It has no ports which is also what I wanted for better integration with my sealed box musical subs. The SCM7 is a mid range marvel! For realism, precision, tonality; it exceeded anything I have ever experienced. That box was triple checked! The downside is they will reveal weaknesses in poor recordings and upstream electronics more-so than the majority of its peers; however, this is the quality of mid range I was seeking. And found it. If you want a forgiving speaker, look elsewhere. The speakers don't color anything and are precisely neutral from my personal experience.  The SCM7 integrated seamlessly with my subs with the overall audio which totally exceeded my expectations sounding to me like what I would expect from $100k systems ( I have actually listened to such systems, Wilson, Magico). I am as pleased with my $1.7K SCM7's and B&W subs as much as having one of those high end speaker systems. I need money for groceries and utilities. No one else has to agree or disagree, and in fact can't really agree or disagree because they haven't heard my system.

Additional key factors- To experience what the SCM7 can deliver, it requires a high quality, high current amp with a decent sized power supply. Look at those factors vs watts. In terms of watts I would say at a minimum 100WPC (8 ohms). I am using a Coda CsiB  integrated amp that is rated at 150/300 WPC 8/4 ohm (2 ohm stable), 130 amp maximum, 3000 volt power suppy, 80K uf capacitance. There are many amps that will work well and many that may be struggling to drive the ATC's (you don't want that). The SCM7 sensitivity is debatable (84db, however one reviewer measured 82). The sealed box is really a big plus imo and helps with sub integration. With a sub, these mid range powerhouses sound superb to me.   You also  need really good stands for the SCM7's and decent cables. Positioning, as always,  is important and in my 12x18 room they are positioned from the tweeters,  ~70" from the front wall, ~5ft apart, ~8ft to listening spot. There are also other variations that also worked well. 

I hope this helps some. In summary, This entire long essay is not to commend or even recommend the ATC SCM7 to anyone. I believe the speaker is a good candidate for those looking for midrange accuracy and quality and detail; however, it is not for those who prefer the same qualities  presented in a different manner.  If you gain anything from this post, the key point is to make certain you know what type audio qualities you are seeking, know if your electronics are capable, and take time in the setup and break in period. These speakers will  imo require subs as well. . 

Enjoy your search and most of all take your time and research all your choices . There are so many great speakers to choose from that can be a great fit for your room, your gear, and most all your listening audio preferences.I have made far more mistakes over the past decades than good choices. It's not helped me so much in picking the so called "best" product but has helped me to more wisely define what I am looking for as well as better realize and incorporate the limitations that the room, the gear , our own hearing and discernment ability, and the recording quality itself play! Each of us have to find our own path. It's the only right one. 

The Triangles are super bright IMHO. The MoFi SP 8 are not and also very good for the money but may not integrate very well. . The MoFi SP 10 should not need a sub.

I would look for a used or discounted pair of Dynaudio Contour 20i.  Totally smooth / non bright and are designed to use port plugs as an option (they come with them).  I cannot emphasize enough how port plugs make for the best sounding subwoofer integration.  If you are a careful observant listener, subwoofers and open ported speakers can sound excellent but you will also hear compromises too, things that sound worse than without the subs.  Plug the ports and no compromises along with easier integration.  

Totem Acoustic or Sonus faber should be given serious consideration. Verafi Audio is an excellent bang for the buck (Never heard ’em.) Have a set of these Vanguard Speakers (in Bamboo) puppies in my whole house system and like wow.

Hey @m20j201, look at GR Research X-LS Encore or NX-Bravo. You can build a kit really affordably if you're crafty, or buy pre-built for still an affordable amount. I have their NX-Studios and they absolutely surpass the hype. Honestly given your components and musical taste, you might favor the soft dome tweeter of the X-LS Encore. Worth looking at.

-Lloyd

Q Accoutics 300 would be a great pairing. Sound better than speakers 3x their cost.

you are probably right. My Legacy Studio HD speakers clash with the REL's and the amt tweeter is a might much. Toe in and out does not seem to help much.

I'd look for speakers with less bass

https://speakerchoices.com/

I thought about the PS Audio FR5's. Are they bright at all?

In my 12x24 room with 8' ceiling and no acoustical treatment yet, I am getting very good results with PS Audio Aspen FR5's on stands paired with an ELAC 3010 Sub...don't usually need the sub for most music I listen to (acoustic, Jam, jazz)...for reggae I turned up the sub to maybe 50%, but otherwise, very sweet and rewarding sound. PS Audio offers a trade-in up to $875 on the speakers making them $2600, plus if you want the stands another $500. They offer generous 30 day in home audition too.

Another option is the Vandersteen VLR-CT.

Depends on your preferences and budget.  I have a pair Revel M126Be standmounts that sound excellent with my pair of SVS SB1000 Pro subs.  They have a rear vent that can be plugged but I removed the plug.  I preferred them over KEF R3 Meta, B&W 705 S3 and SVS standmounts.  

I can also recommend the Studio Electric M4s, an excellent monitor-size standmount.

My Magnepan LRS+ had a smaller footprint than my KEF LS50 + stands. The KEF is a bit more detailed and the LRS+ is a huge soundstage with depth. The LRS+ also have very little side wall interaction. You just need about 3 feet from the front wall. You also need some power from the amps.

@oddiofyl ...I was just thinking about acoustic suspension....in regards to the old AR-3a speakers.... still not the same as a passive, but closer to a defeated port...   🤷‍♂️🙄

Just a thought to post for consideration....
I've an older pair of Polk bookshelf with no port, but a 6" passive cone beneath it's 6" woof with a 1" dome above all....

Not the same as port plugging....a different sort of shift in response, perhaps...? 

I just picked up the excellent Studio Electric M4  Monitors.     I'm using them with a REL and I think the fact that they also are sealed acoustic suspension allow them to integrate so well.   

Around $3200 and worth every penny.   

Thanks for all the input. I am going to experiment with different speakers. Up first will be the Acoustic Energy AE1 active speakers. Second, I will try the low budget Triangle BR04. Then maybe the MoFi Sourcepoint 8 or 10. If I am not happy, then a floorstander. See what happens. Personal taste will probably play a big role.

The music room has evolution acoustics mm1 half price with stand1600$.I have some of these they are fantastic and a bargain.they have high dollar components in them ribbon tweeter ceramic mids.enjoy the music

So, given your components, typically you would be shopping in the $2K range if you're looking to maximize your current components. But, if looking long term and wanting to upgrade your system in a significant way then maybe $3K - $5K. I would look used... in the less than 7 year range. 

You can start with KEF LS-50s and go up from there. From 60Hz up they are Class A in every regard. They are rear ported and do come with port plugs for subwoofer pairing. From there, you will get maybe something that will play louder, or have a different tonal balance, or cost multiples what the LS-50s cost, but not likely to overall play better.  The next step up would be a 6" 2-way stand mounts, and there's no shortage of those from most high end speaker manufacturers. Beyond that would be a d'Appolito (Mid-Tweet-Mid or MTM) design. These will give you the greatest maximum volume, if that's a concern, simply because they have the speaker surface area to push more air. MTM speakers are also a. It taller and so tend to throw a larger soundstage than smaller speakers, that might be an issue in your good-sized room. I'd Look to Revel, Focal, Dynaudio, KEF, Monitor Audio, B&W, Sonus Faber, ATC, all have different series with increasing costs for the same basic config, but more expensive components, crossovers, cabinet details. SIlver, Gold, Platinum; Good, Better, Besr, if you  will.

These would be very nice. They disappear better then most box speakers.

https://www.audioconnect.com/products/proac-tablette-10-signature

Yes…… budget. 
 

500 bucks can get you something descent “normal” people would be amazed with! Not for most of us but…………. some guidance between x and x price wise might be helpful. In my opinion 2k and above gets into pretty good territory. 

Budget?

+1 Harbeth P3ESR. I’ve owned them prior to getting a larger speaker. This is one of the many positive reviews!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqFIaiPT_kY

Consider Harbeth P3ESR for your listening tastes. 

I had a lot of success pairing my Fritz speakers with my subs.

Sealed speakers are also an excellent option to match with subwoofers.  The issue us that not many stand mount speakers have sealed enclosures.  ATC for example. 

jern loudspeakers mate exceptionally well with rel in fact they make a damping plate for rel

https://jernspeakers.com/accessory/damping-plate/

https://jernspeakers.com/speaker/jern14ds/

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/jern14-es-loudspeaker-and-rel-t5i-subwoofer/

Dave and Troy

Audio intellect NJ

jern importers

Thanks for the info on port plugging. I wonder is sealed stand mounted would be better with the subs?

I forgot about the REL calculator. I will check it out.

Have you tried using the REL speaker 🔈 pairing calculator that they have on their website. I think this is a useful tool that helps narrowing down choices.

@m20j201

Not sure what your budget is.

For excellent pairing with subwoofers make sure you pick speakers that come with port plugs- e.g. KEF, B&W, Dynaudio etc. The reason is that the output from the speaker ports is usually low in frequency where it will compete with the frequencies coming out of the subwoofer. What happens when the port output mixes with the subwoofer output is that you can get cancellations in the sound, additions to the bass sounds that can create peaks or be out of phase with each other that will lack clarity and sound hard / distorted.

It is best to plug the ports and let the subs integrate with just the frequencies of the main speaker’s woofer.  Trying to integrate the subwoofers with the sound of the ports AND the woofers is impossible to get right.  

Schiit Freya+ preamp, Orchard Audio mono 150w amps, Denafrips Gaia DDC, Denafrips Pontus 15th DAC, Shingling CD transport and Roon Rock

Agreed, more info. Equipment you will be using. 

I assume you mean stand mounted... you're not actually going to position them on a bookshelf. Then, you want compact speakers because of the way they sound? 

I have heard spectacular sounding $15K stand mounted speakers... without subwoofers. 

I definitely would take a trip. I used to live over a hundred miles from a proper city... I'd get up early and drive up for a day of listening. Later, I would make it a point to visit shops while on buisness trips. 

I have similar listening tastes and a REL sub, but would need more info on the rest of your system to make any recommendation.