In the Audiogon Selling portal they listed their shipping address as a US Oregon address. I shipped the item to this address. Paypal payment made to my account. USPS Insured shipment, with delivery confirmation. Delivery confirmed on June 11, 2021 by USPS. I got an email, from a DIFFERENT email address stating they received the item.
Next, I got a dispute from Paypal saying the buyer never received the item. The buyer listed their address as VIETNAM! Not Oregon. I NEVER sell or ship overseas and would not have accepted this purchase if that was disclosed. Paypal has approved the claim, and took my $500 payment back. I am left without the original DAC or payment.
Wouldn't Paypal "Friends and Family" remove the risk of this claw-back
scam? The "Friends and Family" option removes the fees - as well as
access to the Paypal dispute process that these scammers rely upon.
Win-Win.
An advantage for the seller, but if you were a buyer, would you agree to Friends and Family with a stranger on the internet?
Here is an elephant for the room…. In the old days, before PP even existed and we paid by postal money order, bank transfer or checks, agon didn’t try to prevent the buyer and seller from talking. What a concept! Talking when closing in on a deal. Probably the best, but still not perfect, way of gaining confidence in a deal. As a buyer, I much prefer to use a service that lets me talk to the seller. I say boo agon on this!
Wouldn't Paypal "Friends and Family" remove the risk of this claw-back scam? The "Friends and Family" option removes the fees - as well as access to the Paypal dispute process that these scammers rely upon. Win-Win.
In May I bought a turntable off of Audiogon. Paypal provided me with a USPS tracking number. A few days later the USPS tracker showed me it was delivered to my front door.
Nope.
Contacted my local post office they tell me it the tracking number must be wrong because it involved a delivery to a different address in my town.
Reached out to seller via Audiogon and Paypal. No response. File a complaint with Audiigon and Paypal. I note that while the seller lists his address as new York, New York, the package was shipped from South Carolina.
Audiogon says gee, sorry, contact Paypal, and then immediately sends me a email survey on how well a job did they do in responding to me. Well, not well at all to say the least.
Paypal denies my claim. Says the seller provided a legitimate tracking number. Go back to my post office. The postmaster looks things over and shows that the package was delivered to another address, but, here's the kicker, the package weighs 9 ounces.
Well guess what. The turntable weighs 22lbs!
Paypal throws in the towel and I get my money back. It's a fairly creative scam, but yet another thing to watch out for when buying online.
PS, PayPal does this to buyers as well. Had a Krell preamp, purchased here on A'gon, just not arrive at my doorstep while I was in the house. Despite the fact that the seller insured it and sent it 'signature only', UPS said they left it on the doorstep (again I was home and waiting for it) and despite getting police reports and neighbors video of my door that the police went over, PayPal still closed the case on me and I was out the preamp and the money. Luckily, a little while later my PayPal MasterCard was kind enough to find in my favor and I was no longer out the money.
I think that everything that needs to be said has been said about this. I just would like to add that I would think nothing of opening a small claim in your local jurisdiction against PayPal. First off, just for the ballbreaking of it all. Even if they dismiss it, PayPal has to pay $1,500 to get somebody to stand in there that day. Second, when you provide everything you've said in the original post, that comes across real well on an arbitrator or a judge. You will win your 500 bucks back and unfortunately you'll have to work for it, but I don't like getting schtooped on an order that got stolen in Southeast Asia by an organization (PayPal) that's handling business and making decisions from Southeast Asia. Even if I lose money I like to see them lose.
I have been told to not accept paypal and they don’t help the seller. And, this makes me want to never buy used or through Audiogon. I am shopping for speakers and everyone says buy used, but with risks like this I don’t think it is a good idea. OP, I am sorry for your loss. The world would be so much better if everyone was honest.
Create a bank Acct for use only for your web sales and purchases. It will be in same bank as your regular account. Moneyfrom sale goes into it and you immediately transfer to your regular Acct. PP only has authority to clawback money from your one Acct which is at zero balance. You have the money, scammer is out of luck. Complains to PP But you are in charge now. You decide whether to reimburse. If problem. Leave PP, OR OPEN ANOTHER NEW ACCT TO USE W THEM. They can’t get your goat if they don’t know where it’s tied.
You could consider yourself lucky that it was only a $500 item. I lost $1200 on an amp sold on audiogon. The seller sold the same item to 10 others here and never delivered the amp to anyone. This place has always had its share of scammers. You’ve been scammed. Sorry but these are the rules of the AG system but AG never to my knowledge gets involved with sales or purchases. I’ve been here since 1997 and I’ve never seen it.
Is anyone really surprised that people with ill intent figured out how to scam people thru PayPal? It could be why they're always updating their user agreement policies that they say will affect you.
It's easier and cheaper for them to put their wagons in a circle than to seriously look into and update their verification policies. I'll continue to use them for my purchases as long as they are local or I've done business with others before.
I had an issue that involved both PayPal and eBay. eBay chargedback my PayPal account from a transaction 5 years before! Claiming buyer never received. eBay had no records of anything regarding a dispute, yet they still debited my associated PayPal account. PayPal was no help. After multiple emails, escalations, etc, eBay gave me a credit against future eBay charges to the amount they debited my PayPal account. Didn't get my money back per say, but it was a wash. Soon after, eBay disassociated itself from PayPal.
Did you see his feedback numbers? Did you communicate with him via phone (preferably) or email before agreeing to the deal? Did he have many or any posts on Audiogon?
I've even looked people up on LinkedIn.
Common sense things, but I wouldn't do a transaction like this without doing it.
Sorry for the hassle/loss you went through, but for anything over $100 I want to sell, I try to make it part of some trade in deal, or just hang on to it until the next dealer transaction. If a dealer won't offer a trade or at least to sell the item for me, it is tough for me to do business with them, but not impossible.
There are some unanswered questions in this thread. For it to be useful to the community it would help if the OP could clarify some of what took place with the initial transaction. When you accepted payment into your PayPal account, was the buyer’s address the US based address and was it ‘PayPal Verified’. One can only assume that it must have been the US address since you said you’d seen no mention of an overseas address prior to shipping. In which case, you ought to be protected under PayPal’s Seller Protection program. If the buyer changed his/her address after the transaction with you, that really should have no bearing on your claim. Can the OP please clarify, otherwise it’s just another ‘I got screwed’ thread and teaches us nothing other than not to get out of bed in the morning.
Is there are many traders on audio gun like this some have good histories some maybe not. They use a delivery address which is typically a mailbox place or a shipping company where they receive large amounts of items which are then bundled and shipped as a large shipment. They typically don't have US PayPal accounts that are registered to that address and so it's beware. When challenged they will persistently try to convince you that it's OK I don't feel comfortable and will usually pass. You should always Google the shipping address and look at it with the street view to see if it looks reasonable as a residence or a place that can be tied to the actual account name.
I too have had issues with PayPal policies and unwillingness to support legitimate sellers in favor of fraudulent buyers. It was mentioned that you should ship to PP verified address. I can tell you from experience that their verification process is flawed. You ask how I can make this statement...I will tell you. I am born and raised is the USA. I have lived at my current address in the US for 4 decades. I had an issue with a funds transfer from some in the US to me. I received the funds in Euro's much to my surprise. I contacted the person whom I know intimately and asked why did you send the money in Euro's and he said why would I do that? He sent the money as USD. PP converted his funds to Euro's. I spoke with PP support and they confirmed it was sent in USD and that they converted it to Euro's because they verified my address in a different country, Cyprus. If you are thinking of reasons why this may be possible, I can tell you that my address is quite unique and would not exist as such in Cyprus. I know this for a fact. When I challenged them they said the fault was mine because I listed my address in Cyprus. I ask you, even if that were the case, how could the PP system verify an address that is incorrect and does not exist in anther country. I asked the representative to verify it in the PP system while I was on the call with him and he said it is verified. I told him that was not possible and the system is flawed. He became very indigent. Sorry for the lengthy message, but bottom line PP policies are autocratic and for reasons unexplained in favor of scammers. I my opinion they treat honest sellers as villains while going out of their way to protect fraudulent purchasers. Sellers be ware!
So obvious question- did you ship to the Verified PayPal address that was on his PayPal account or a different address? It seems you might not have shipped to the verified address? If you did I don't think PayPal would reverse the transaction in the buyers favor?
How’s Stripe is any different than PayPal? Their fees are just as ridiculous as PayPal? Fraudsters are everywhere, as long as you do your diligence you can avoid being scammed.
OP, that really sucks, it’s situations like this that make me wish physical harm on these scammers. I’ve been lucky so far and have not been personally scammed, but I and several others assisted a guy a few years back on another site to “persuade” an individual to make it right when they tried to scam a guy locally. I don’t recommend this route anymore based on the fact that situations like that could easily get out of hand/escalate as pointed out by the Mrs. Thanks @audioman58 for the Stripe suggestion, I created an account and will try it on my next transaction.
i think at one time Ebay & payPal were two of the same i would not buy or sell overseas In my case i sold a pair of Grado HeadPhones & matching phono Stage Advise of small crack in right side wooden ear cup with pictures also no returns Buyer Complained to Ebay was given a full refund & kept my merchandise Ebays answer was file a complaint with the USPS
It sounds like a transhipper operating out of Oregon. Happened to me selling a pair of LS3/5a to a mainlaind Chinese scammer. Paypal address was Oregon and months later he complained about slight color difference between crossover PCB (heck they were made in 1970s!) and asked me to give full refund PLUS shipping from mainland CHINA! Took almost 5 months for paypal/eBay to settle, thankfully in my case it was in my favor as I DID send him pics BEFORE shipping via ebay messages of the speakers inside out and 360 degrees.
I always thought Paypal gives a good deal of buyer security, at least I recall that is how the service used to market itself as a selling point. Maybe things have changed.
Thanks for naming the culprit. So often, members here are reluctant to name the scammer. I have never been scammed here or or on any other site. I prefer to deal locally, cash only, but if I buy here on Audiogon or other sites, I always check the sellers feedback anytime the purchase involves more than a few hundred dollars. Lastly, I wouldn't rely on Paypal to reimburse you for an unfortunate transaction.
I would never use PayPal for any transaction of this type. I only deal in wire transfers and I confirm the buyer's or seller's existence using orthogonal methods.
I never use Paypal and always ask the guy to talk on webcam to conclude the deal. If the guy "does not have" Whatsapp, Skype, a smartphone... or "does not have time"... you know that you are dealing with a scammer.
Oregon address is Known destination of fright forwarders. Avoiding Oregon OR Vietnam Or any other notorious country is Not a good idea. Ensuring paypal, audiogon USPS services real secure is must. There always a criminals leave the trail or hint while dealing, some are too good to believe, very polite OR refuse to deal or disappear once you start inquiring. Now all you can do is put fight your case with paypal with evidence. OR consumer court. Everyone should take screen shot of buyer seller wherever it is required before proceeding. Stripe payment seems a promising alternative to Paypal.
I had an interesting experience last week. I ordered a $30 item from eBay. I received a ups tracking number that it was “delivered”. But, as usual, the confirmation did not say my address , only my town. I called ups and they verified it was not delivered to me, but would not put it in writing. eBay rejected my appeal, and expected me to pay. On second vigorous appeal they said the item is listed as “stolen” and refunded me. They are not equipped to handle this sort of easy fraud. A heads up for me, think if it was a $300 or $500 item? Somehow the seller found the tracking number for something sent by Amazon, coming to my town, and put that as the tracking number for my item. Very clever!
Thanks for all the input and support. I will take this as another ‘learning experience’ in a long life of them. I appreciate the Audiogon community a lot. I perhaps trusted a bit too much in the ‘kindness of strangers’ but I still feel like this is a great community of shared interest.
Sorry for your trouble. There is so much fraud on the internet today. Our hobby is certainly not immune to this type of crook. I've got burned a few times myself. I have reached the point where I have actually gone back to dealing with one or two audio retailers, and paying their prices. At least I know I'm protected with dealing with an actual store.
That sounds pretty cut and dried that you were scammed. PayPal seems useless if this isn’t made right and I agree that it protects the buyer way more than the seller even with hard evidence. I’ve backed out of deals with PayPal when seeing there policy which can at times put the control of deal in hands of the “ Buyer “. Good luck
I hate it when crooks take advantage of a tight knit group of people who are used to dealing with honest members. I used to work with a banker who traded in metals, coins, stamps and the like as collateral for loans.
It was common, back then, to seal a deal with a simple handshake. Everyone knew everyone in the business and some transactions at that level were in the millions. I was able to handle and view some of the finest coin collections in the world, not to mention Jerry Buss's personal stamp collection that he leveraged to get Wayne Gretzky.
And all it took was a phone call, a fax, and the deal went on without a hitch. Contracts were mostly boilerplate (always in the banks favor). I miss those times just for the honesty.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
