In the Audiogon Selling portal they listed their shipping address as a US Oregon address. I shipped the item to this address. Paypal payment made to my account. USPS Insured shipment, with delivery confirmation. Delivery confirmed on June 11, 2021 by USPS. I got an email, from a DIFFERENT email address stating they received the item.
Next, I got a dispute from Paypal saying the buyer never received the item. The buyer listed their address as VIETNAM! Not Oregon. I NEVER sell or ship overseas and would not have accepted this purchase if that was disclosed. Paypal has approved the claim, and took my $500 payment back. I am left without the original DAC or payment.
Yes, unfortunately the original payment info on Paypal was changed. Not sure how/when. But you are correct, that was the 'trick'. Since the Paypal shipping address was changed from Oregon to Vietnam...and I missed that. Paypal will not protect me, the Seller. They did tell me they have seen this scam before...but they still took my money back.
Sorry you got scammed. Your only saving grace is His address listed on Audiogon transaction page. If the buyer changed the address post transaction, Audiogon should provide you some kind of documentation and also blacklist his account.
Did you not receive email from PayPal on payment confirmation? PayPal always list buyer shipping address in the confirmation email. If I don’t see ‘verified’ next to buyer address, I make it a point to call PayPal to verify buyer’s legitimacy.
He's still listed as residing in Beaverton, Ore. on A'gon. Maybe notifying PayPal of that would be a start.
PayPal has been changing their policy a lot recently as evidenced by the emails I've been getting from them. Maybe this scammer took advantage of those recent changes.
Yeah the whole thing is a frustrating. The person on Audiogon who made the purchase is the one I shipped this too. Nowhere in any part of the transaction was Vietnam mentioned. Like I said, I wouldn't have even accepted the sale if it was. I shipped it to Oregon, and yes I have a signed delivery confirmation from USPS for the package. I tried to go through USPS for a fraud claim, but unfortunately they just did what I paid them for. Deliver to the Oregon address, which was listed on Audiogon by the 'buyer'. I'm not easily scammed. I've been a Cybersecurity engineer for a large corporation for 25 years. I am chagrined.
Is the Oregon address a real site or is it a freight forwarding place? Have you been in contact with the person that signed for it? Where is the DAC now? I wonder if the scam is just for the money and it doesn't matter what the item is DAC, car part, watch or whatever, just taking advantage of PayPal and USPS mode of operation and how they deal with buyers & sellers.
@thegm - have you contacted Audiogon to see if they are willing to get involved with you and paypal? I would think that it is in its vested interested to do so as it can’t afford to have scammers on it’s site
This happened to me a couple of decades ago. I shipped a $5,000 blue sapphire to a dude in Canada. Used PAYPAL. Had signed proof of delivery via USPS registered mail. He filed “not received” claim with PP. The thing is; PP ALWAYS sides with buyer. Like you, I was out the stone and the $!
I would press Paypal. I think you have a decent case - they shouldn’t be so quick to refund the money especially since you have proof of mailing the item.
I hate it when crooks take advantage of a tight knit group of people who are used to dealing with honest members. I used to work with a banker who traded in metals, coins, stamps and the like as collateral for loans.
It was common, back then, to seal a deal with a simple handshake. Everyone knew everyone in the business and some transactions at that level were in the millions. I was able to handle and view some of the finest coin collections in the world, not to mention Jerry Buss's personal stamp collection that he leveraged to get Wayne Gretzky.
And all it took was a phone call, a fax, and the deal went on without a hitch. Contracts were mostly boilerplate (always in the banks favor). I miss those times just for the honesty.
That sounds pretty cut and dried that you were scammed. PayPal seems useless if this isn’t made right and I agree that it protects the buyer way more than the seller even with hard evidence. I’ve backed out of deals with PayPal when seeing there policy which can at times put the control of deal in hands of the “ Buyer “. Good luck
Sorry for your trouble. There is so much fraud on the internet today. Our hobby is certainly not immune to this type of crook. I've got burned a few times myself. I have reached the point where I have actually gone back to dealing with one or two audio retailers, and paying their prices. At least I know I'm protected with dealing with an actual store.
Thanks for all the input and support. I will take this as another ‘learning experience’ in a long life of them. I appreciate the Audiogon community a lot. I perhaps trusted a bit too much in the ‘kindness of strangers’ but I still feel like this is a great community of shared interest.
I had an interesting experience last week. I ordered a $30 item from eBay. I received a ups tracking number that it was “delivered”. But, as usual, the confirmation did not say my address , only my town. I called ups and they verified it was not delivered to me, but would not put it in writing. eBay rejected my appeal, and expected me to pay. On second vigorous appeal they said the item is listed as “stolen” and refunded me. They are not equipped to handle this sort of easy fraud. A heads up for me, think if it was a $300 or $500 item? Somehow the seller found the tracking number for something sent by Amazon, coming to my town, and put that as the tracking number for my item. Very clever!
Oregon address is Known destination of fright forwarders. Avoiding Oregon OR Vietnam Or any other notorious country is Not a good idea. Ensuring paypal, audiogon USPS services real secure is must. There always a criminals leave the trail or hint while dealing, some are too good to believe, very polite OR refuse to deal or disappear once you start inquiring. Now all you can do is put fight your case with paypal with evidence. OR consumer court. Everyone should take screen shot of buyer seller wherever it is required before proceeding. Stripe payment seems a promising alternative to Paypal.
I never use Paypal and always ask the guy to talk on webcam to conclude the deal. If the guy "does not have" Whatsapp, Skype, a smartphone... or "does not have time"... you know that you are dealing with a scammer.
I would never use PayPal for any transaction of this type. I only deal in wire transfers and I confirm the buyer's or seller's existence using orthogonal methods.
Thanks for naming the culprit. So often, members here are reluctant to name the scammer. I have never been scammed here or or on any other site. I prefer to deal locally, cash only, but if I buy here on Audiogon or other sites, I always check the sellers feedback anytime the purchase involves more than a few hundred dollars. Lastly, I wouldn't rely on Paypal to reimburse you for an unfortunate transaction.
I always thought Paypal gives a good deal of buyer security, at least I recall that is how the service used to market itself as a selling point. Maybe things have changed.
It sounds like a transhipper operating out of Oregon. Happened to me selling a pair of LS3/5a to a mainlaind Chinese scammer. Paypal address was Oregon and months later he complained about slight color difference between crossover PCB (heck they were made in 1970s!) and asked me to give full refund PLUS shipping from mainland CHINA! Took almost 5 months for paypal/eBay to settle, thankfully in my case it was in my favor as I DID send him pics BEFORE shipping via ebay messages of the speakers inside out and 360 degrees.
i think at one time Ebay & payPal were two of the same i would not buy or sell overseas In my case i sold a pair of Grado HeadPhones & matching phono Stage Advise of small crack in right side wooden ear cup with pictures also no returns Buyer Complained to Ebay was given a full refund & kept my merchandise Ebays answer was file a complaint with the USPS
OP, that really sucks, it’s situations like this that make me wish physical harm on these scammers. I’ve been lucky so far and have not been personally scammed, but I and several others assisted a guy a few years back on another site to “persuade” an individual to make it right when they tried to scam a guy locally. I don’t recommend this route anymore based on the fact that situations like that could easily get out of hand/escalate as pointed out by the Mrs. Thanks @audioman58 for the Stripe suggestion, I created an account and will try it on my next transaction.
How’s Stripe is any different than PayPal? Their fees are just as ridiculous as PayPal? Fraudsters are everywhere, as long as you do your diligence you can avoid being scammed.
So obvious question- did you ship to the Verified PayPal address that was on his PayPal account or a different address? It seems you might not have shipped to the verified address? If you did I don't think PayPal would reverse the transaction in the buyers favor?
I too have had issues with PayPal policies and unwillingness to support legitimate sellers in favor of fraudulent buyers. It was mentioned that you should ship to PP verified address. I can tell you from experience that their verification process is flawed. You ask how I can make this statement...I will tell you. I am born and raised is the USA. I have lived at my current address in the US for 4 decades. I had an issue with a funds transfer from some in the US to me. I received the funds in Euro's much to my surprise. I contacted the person whom I know intimately and asked why did you send the money in Euro's and he said why would I do that? He sent the money as USD. PP converted his funds to Euro's. I spoke with PP support and they confirmed it was sent in USD and that they converted it to Euro's because they verified my address in a different country, Cyprus. If you are thinking of reasons why this may be possible, I can tell you that my address is quite unique and would not exist as such in Cyprus. I know this for a fact. When I challenged them they said the fault was mine because I listed my address in Cyprus. I ask you, even if that were the case, how could the PP system verify an address that is incorrect and does not exist in anther country. I asked the representative to verify it in the PP system while I was on the call with him and he said it is verified. I told him that was not possible and the system is flawed. He became very indigent. Sorry for the lengthy message, but bottom line PP policies are autocratic and for reasons unexplained in favor of scammers. I my opinion they treat honest sellers as villains while going out of their way to protect fraudulent purchasers. Sellers be ware!
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