Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

We all need to use a critical mind.

We all need to use an open mind while critically listening.

Critical thinking and listening are skills. Amir has neither of these?.

Changing subject. Right now I succeeded to dsp my system to fully understand what beautiful recording Gregory Porter - Take me to the Alley is. Everything super clear, dynamic and sweet. Didn’t have to change cables or anything :-)

First, a caveat: I do occasionally read reviews on ASR, and would argue that Amir does, at times, provide interesting and valuable insights.

Having gotten that out of the way, here are a couple of thoughts on the matter.

The painting of both ASR or Audiogon contributors with a broad brush is ridiculous. There are at least some perfectly reasonable members of both sites, who neither over-emphasize the importance of measurements, nor subjective experiences, at least to any extreme degree.

No component produces music in a vacuum, and none will sound the same with every possible permutation of associated components, and listening spaces. So even if an amplifier, to use one example, were to measure exceedingly well, could Amir, or any other rigid objectivist, describe its sound signature without listening to it? They might argue that it is "neutral", and that any "signature", or changes in sound, would be related to other components in the chain. But even if that were true, everyone understands that some amplifiers pair better with some speakers than others, and I doubt very much that such synergy could always be accurately predicted based on measurements alone.

I use the above example, and could produce others, to help illustrate that listening is required in order to fully assess the performance of components. Synergy cannot be measured, and listening spaces can radically change the sound produced even by components that measure exceptionally well.

It is, of course, possible to predict some likely characteristics of amps or speakers, based on measurements. But for the same reason that no designer of such components would ever put them into production without extensive listening sessions, it is simply not possible to know how a component will sound based on measurements alone. And that, I would argue, is the slippery slope that the extreme objectivists try to avoid at all costs.

@juanmanuelfangioii Critical thinking and listening are skills. Amir has neither of these?

You have made an unsubstantiated accusation. Prove it beyond reasonable doubt for all on Audiogon to bookmark. For the record.

Don’t assume that the readers of your many comments here have an IQ in the double digits.

By the way, Amir sometimes also has issues with correct punctuation and grammar skills.. Maybe you should correct him on that, too.

Oh, wait.

So is CAT (Critical Audio Theory) now a thing?

So @noske you are a faithful follower of the brother John Birch?

His minions are descending, in the hopes they will accent into to Amir’s audio heaven. 
 

@juanmanuelfangioii Amir is asking for money in every post, the website is a money pit that goes right to his pocket.

@kota1 Yep kind of like a cult.

Wonder if  ASR is a 501 (c)(3)????

My reaction to ASR was based on a friend and ASR devotee telling me that what I claimed to be hearing was actually me imagining things. Of course he had never listened to the device mentioned but since Amir said it was bogus, then it has to be bogus. I’ve always agreed that audio science and test measurements are of course necessary in certain applications but to dismiss someone’s listening experiences if it contradicts measurements is inaccurate. The claim that ASR is factual because science supports it objectively and that listening reviews are subjective and therefore less valid is a faulty premise. I care very little about hundreds of website forums on the World Wide Web. Had my ASR friend not expressed his zealotry and told me that I was full of it, I wouldn’t know or care about ASR.

"

noske: quoted

@juanmanuelfangioii Critical thinking and listening are skills. Amir has neither of these?

You have made an unsubstantiated accusation. Prove it beyond reasonable doubt for all on Audiogon to bookmark. For the record."

For the record.... Testing a Leema Acoustics Dac. He plugged it into a 120 volt main and nothing happened - no output. It took him a half hour to work out it needed 230 volts. This is the man whose measurements some trust. Does that handle the critical thinking part?

@goofyfoot It sounds like you have to make up your own mind and be your own person. Arguing with an ASR member about your subjective audio experience will drive you mad. It's a bit like talking about politics with an extremist. The conversation will always be framed by the extremist and you'll lose the thread. In essence, you know what you heard. 

😂@nonoise

Μay I add that CAT has led many an audiophile to CATS (constant audio-tinkering syndrome).

The effects are measurable in hard currency and there is no known cure -- yet.

@juanmanuelfangioii So @noske you are a faithful follower of the brother John Birch?

The brother John Birch is unknown to me. 

Should that be a question rather than an assertion as it is phrased, the answer is obviously no.

@laoman  For the record.... Testing a Leema Acoustics Dac. He plugged it into a 120 volt main and nothing happened - no output. It took him a half hour to work out it needed 230 volts. This is the man whose measurements some trust. 

The measurements provided are what the audio analyser Audio Precision APx555 spits out.  

It is not uncommon for people who are American to forget that much of the rest of the world operates on variants of 240V (220, 230) and 50 Hz.

I've not read this entire thread so excuse me for chiming in late. However, according to ASR, my old Amp was fantastic and the new Amp is a bag of crap.

My ears say different and the sound makes me smile.

That's all that matters.

Take every review with a pinch of salt and use them to build a picture of the things you should try. Then try them, see how it works for you, keep what you like and lose what you don't. That's the fun of the hobby.

If you find reviewers that you largely agree with based on your experience of the products then you can lean towards them more, but never trust a review completely as everyone has different ears!

Then enjoy the music, That's the point of the hobby.

ASR is pretty toxic though, it's an echo chamber and if you don't agree you will get "bullied". Not worth the button clicks for me.

"It is not uncommon for people who are American to forget that much of the rest of the world operates on variants of 240V (220, 230) and 50 Hz."
As someone who purports to "review" equipment, you have to be pretty stupid to make this mistake. This is the same guy who tried to measure the interference to a  cable without having it plugged into anything. Nice try though, Noske.

@noske  

Audio precision is used by many and the measurements don't always end up the same. Amir always seems to be in a big hurry when he is measuring audiophile equipment, which isn't a good idea.

The guy isn't a scientist, he is an ex Microsoft employee turned audio dealer. Real science is published in peer reviewed journals.

I really admire ASR and Amir's reviews. It stands to reason that there is a scientific, measurable and objective way to rate audio components. But, we live at a time where people are hostile to science, and prefer subjectivity. In a recent review Amir examined a fancy USB cable and determined that it didn't perform any better than a generic one from Amazon that cost $8. The manufacturer made all sorts of extravagant claims about the expensive cable that were simply unprovable. 

But if the people here who like LPs, tube equipment, and expensive components that don't measure up so what? Beauty is in the eye--or ear--of the beholder--or listener. There isn't anything wrong with liking a particular sound even if it is the result of distortion. Expensive cables and such are really cool even though they most likely do nothing to enhance sound. But all this is insufficient reason to castigate Amir and his adherents. I am extremely pleased with the components I am currently using, all of which he recommended. All this is really tempest in a teapot. 

@rtorchia 

Did you try the fancy USB cable in your system and compare?  Did you compare your current equipment to equipment that Amir doesn't approve of?  Why would you assume tube equipment is adding all kinds of distortion?

Invalid asks, "Did you try the fancy USB cable in your system and compare?  Did you compare your current equipment to equipment that Amir doesn't approve of?  Why would you assume tube equipment is adding all kinds of distortion?"

I had purchased the fancy USB a couple of years prior to Amir's review. I used a generic one that came with my secondary system DAC as a matter of curiosity and noticed no difference whatsoever. I ascribed this phenomenon to the possibility that my hearing was failing. Then I read the review and all was manifest--I heard no difference because there is no difference. But the cable in question is very cool looking so I kept it. 

I had a very high quality tube components one of which Amir reviewed (the brand is very popular here). When I bought my secondary basement system everything was based on Amir's recommendations and I was delighted with the new system, which also cost a fraction of the original one. 

Personally I like the tube sound but to my ears it is distorted, and I gravitated to the Amir recommended components because to me they sounded better. I kept my Larsen 6.2 speakers which I think the ASR guys don't like, but I enjoy them greatly. 

All this is a case of "to each his own," but my point is that to deny scientific objectivity is just plain silly. But of course some people quite reasonably may not like the sound that measures up and I understand that without criticism. 

@rtorchia Your personal experience is valuable. 

But tube amplifiers make sense if you're looking for a low damping factor. Modern amplifiers typically have a very high damping factor (ideal for a 2 or 3 way speakers with crossovers). But if you're using a fullrange driver you want a low damping factor for fuller bass. Tube amplifiers typically have a lower damping factor. 

My point is: ASR neglects equipment matching because they review products in isolation. 

I anticipate being called a moron by an ASR member for even mentioning fullrange drivers and tube amplifiers. 

They are passing the collection plate over at the Church of ASR. 

@noske I do not assume this of the readers here.

Only of the blind cultist over at ASR.

Enjoy your evening. 

Don’t assume that the readers of your many comments here have an IQ in the double digits.

blind cultist

Blind, or double blind??😎

I see the vitriol and name calling continues without pause.  That usually happens when people are afraid of something.  Is Amir really that scary?

Oh heavens no.

@rtorchia 

What tube amp was it?  Science can be manipulated, take damping factor for instance, it can be measured at 1khz instead of 20hz to 20khz.

@mitch2, have you seen the vitriol on ASR for people who don't sing there tune (or measure their tune, LOL). Are they afraid of something? Is Amir afraid of something? If you want "science" good, stick with peer reviewed journals:

It stands to reason that there is a scientific, measurable and objective way to rate audio components

Rate them how? That they'll work when turned on? That they'll make sound when hooked up? That they'll work well with other components within reason?

That's about the extent of how to rate an audio component that's been "scientifically" measured. As to how it will actually sound is another matter.

All the best,
Nonoise

Ok, this may seem like a silly question to some; many of us know that it takes time for the amplifiers to break in. I have been observing it again and again, with every amp I have or have had in the past. Can the breaking in differences be measured? Like before and after. Before is when it is out of the box brand new, and after, say, 100 hours of listening. 

I've read here on other threads that there's no difference in measurements before and after break-in. Yet, like you, I heard the differences, even during the break-in period. 

On another thread about measurements, I mentioned that I read on a review that despite the different options for selecting filters (on a CDP), they all measured the same on the component. I even cut and pasted the section on it.

 Hmmm? Different filter settings resulting in obvious sound differences yet they all measured the same. Could it be that the analyzer could only "measure" the summing of the signal and not the "flavor" of the settings? 

I never got a cogent answer for that.

All the best,
Nonoise

worth noting that you’ve got several other fairly prominent measurement focused reviewers out there (atkinson, erin, goldensound) and ASR members have argued, downplayed, & criticized all of them. and who here has a problem with any of these reviewers? i think they do great work.

and i personally don’t think it’s really about objectivity or "science" to some of those asr guys, and i don't think most so-called subjectivists have a problem with an engineering-based critique of a piece of equipment. it's really just about not being a jerk and pretending you have all the answers about hi-fi because you can perform a test tone sweep. 

I am still amazed at the vehemence of the attacks on Amir and his following on this thread. All he is doing is applying scientific criteria to his reviews of audio components. Additionally, he provides extremely valuable insights into craftsmanship that is often sadly lacking in high priced equipment. I doubt if any middle of the road ASR adherent would criticize someone who liked tube components; they would just note that the unit didn't measure up to scientific standards. It may well be that the most accurate sound doesn't sound as attractive as some tube component. Thanks to ASR I discovered class D amplifiers and am hugely delighted with my Purifi amp--to me, the sound is stunning. The site led me to RME and even Topping--the former is a wonderful DAC. People get emotional over the cable business but the bottom line is that the manufacturers make wild claims about their often monstrously expensive products that cannot be substantiated. Skepticism is a good thing, and just because someone gives you a lot of mumbo jumbo about some fanciful thing doesn't mean they are automatically right. To me Amir and ASR in general have demystified a lot of audio myths and I like that, even though he made me feel like an idiot for buying that USB cable. 

I'm still amazed at the hyperbole that ASR adherents use when describing anyone who disagrees with them. Also, the overuse of the term scientific as if it's a charm of sorts and can't be refuted, lest one anger the audio gods.

All the best,
Nonoise

@rtorchia

I’ll bet money on it that most of if not all the equipment that Amir recommends will be worthless in 10 years, but most of the high end equipment he doesn’t recommend will still be sought after and have some decent value. Accuracy is a myth in audio,

@rtorchia, you said it it 100%, "they made you feel like an idiot". You aren’t alone, they denigrate anyone that disagrees. Amir doesn’t even use room treatments and disdains them, go log back in and make him feel like an idiot and see how he likes it.

There is no reason to denigrate anyone, including Amir. Fact is fact, he does pass the donation plate, he is a dealer, he openly tells you that you can read bias into his articles, he is a former microsoft exec, he doesn’t have any peer reviewed papers published in any respected "scientific" journals and he is yammering away and made you feel like an idiot, just saying.

Actually the ASR people were very nice about the cable--I just felt foolish myself for getting talked into buying the thing and wasting $95. I'm not an audio engineer but it appears that Amir's reviews are quite well done. To me his analysis of the craftsmanship aspect alone is quite enlightening. He had a Nord amp where the negative and positive connections were reversed, and it was a review unit! As consumers we deserve to know that some mega dollar component shows sloppy soldering and such. I enjoy Amir's tear-downs in particular. I suggest that anyone interested in the field would benefit from reading ASR, even if they disagree with some of the site's positions. 

@rtorchia 

I am still amazed at the vehemence of the attacks on Amir and his following on this thread. All he is doing is applying scientific criteria to his reviews of audio components. Additionally, he provides extremely valuable insights into craftsmanship that is often sadly lacking in high priced equipment.

Their vehemence might not look so amazing if they have a vested interest in promoting high priced equipment.

Not when their most sacred cash cows are being led to the slaughter by Klippel. 

For them, what Amir is doing is not kosha and it's not halal.

Such is the way of the world of man and money.

@cd318 Their vehemence might not look so amazing if they have a  were obligated to disclose their vested interest in promoting high priced equipment.

Fixed.

@CD318, if you like what Amir writes that's great. I'm sure he likes what you write too, write him a check, its your money after all.  

@invalid Science can be manipulated, take damping factor for instance, it can be measured at 1khz instead of 20hz to 20khz.

Or, take output impedance. The spec may say 100 ohms or whatever, but at low frequencies, say at 20hz, it may be several thousand ohms.

The spec is a single data point.. That is not science, and in fact quite the opposite to what you state. It is marketing, and that is OK if you are of a forgiving nature which I know many here on AG are.

I only know what I said in my first paragraph because of the knowledge revealed by ASR in a review of a Schiit pre-amp some years ago where a full frequency sweep was taken. That is science - total transparency, pimples!!

@noske 

Yes, total transparency like when Amir measured a large planar speaker at 1 meter.

@kota1 Excellent analysis of Amir.

@rtorchia The comments made here include Amir’s lack of adequate testing. Damping at 1Khz or 20hz to 20khz, burn-in of equipment prior to testing (unless you don’t believe in that) which nearly all published reviewers talk about and do, etc. etc.

Your $95 USB digital cable could be crap. However, that does not translate that all $95 or $6000 USB cables don’t sound as good as your el cheapo cable. Plus, your system may not resolve musical information as well as those cables provide (or don’t provide). I’ve tested many cables in my systems and found that price is not a determinant of value or musical resolution. After testing half a dozen SPDIF RCA digital cables under $750, I tried a $1500 cable. Low and behold, it was superior in resolution, openness, dynamic contrasts, etc. compared to the less expensive cable. My higher end system easily provided the comparison.

The cable I previously used cost $200 and was an excellent first effort by a cable manufacturer. His other cabling is superb at a very reasonable ($400-$750) price. This time, someone else made a vastly superior cable (Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Euphoria). When I wrote this at ASR, I was pummeled with hatred and vile responses. Because it was considered snake oil. Then the personal attacks began.

I didn’t even mention tube equipment. There is NO reason tube equipment cannot measure well. However, achieving solid state results in the micro distortion levels of .001%, yes they may not be capable to obtain those numbers. Who cares? It’s about the sonic results, not a lab test. My voltage regulated 125 watt tube monoblocks are coasting in powering my 7 driver (3-12" woofers) floorstanders because they are relatively efficient yet dive down to 2.8 ohm bass impedance with a few sharp phase angles.

John Atkinson has pointed out speaker measurements in his reviews that are particularly helpful in understanding how difficult it is to drive very low impedances with very sharp phase angles, with wild frequency responses. I happen to not prefer that speaker brand although they are very popular in England.

Amir is a drive by reviewer.

@fleschler The comments made here include Amir’s lack of adequate testing. Damping at 1Khz or 20hz to 20khz....which nearly all published reviewers talk about.

I’d enjoy you providing links to a sample of those published reviews should you be so kind. I am always keen to know more about damping factor principles.

Damping factor, this another overblown spec that is usually meaningless. My friend has adcom gfa 565 monoblocks that have a higher damping factor than my krell ksa 300s, guess which amp has better bass.