Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

This hobby seems to generate a lot of stone throwing and name calling.  A "horrible group of miscreants," really?  This subjective vs. objective argument has become like a battle between true believers vs. atheists, with no middle ground whatsoever.  We all have an opinion and sharing is fine, but the trouble starts when everyone has to be right.

"A lot of reviewers on the web lacked the knowledge but everyone believed them because they were charismatic and sounded knowledgeable."

- Shocker!

I find this fascinating. It seems folks want a universal evaluation system that ranks audio equipment on an irrefutable, absolute scale. Hint - it ain’t never gonna happen!

ASR performs testing and reports results of common parameters such as noise and distortion, frequency response, dynamic range, jitter, S/N ratio, and other comparisons using their own test equipment. This is simply objective information. In some cases, their test results do not align with manufacturer’s claims. Again, simply information.

The issues here seem to be that Amir’s subjective opinions about the gear tested often do not align with the opinions of many here. In addition, the mental route Amir takes to reach his subjective conclusions does not align with many here who put a much greater emphasis on listening, while they believe Amir puts a greater emphasis on test results.

Big deal. Read the test results for what they are, and form your own opinions on the items tested based on your own listening. As some have pointed out, systems, rooms, and listener’s preferences are all different so it is no shocker that people come to different conclusions on what sounds good to them. It is Amir’s site, so he can state his opinion and how he arrives at it. Nobody (including Amir) is making anybody agree with Amir. If you disagree with Amir’s subjective opinions, the objective test results, and the pink panther, then why are you even reading the site? Or, is it a case where everybody who owns an audio system has to think alike? It really is ok to disagree, and the absence of consensus is more expected than surprising. Don’t hold your breath waiting for that universal evaluation system.

@kokakolia - Amidst the humor and sarcasm it seems your point is that ASR is a bigger deal than I give them credit for and people who are not capable or experienced enough to come to their own conclusions turn to ASR and the Pink Panther as the authority on the quality and value of audio equipment. Therefore, when the panther loses his head because ASR erroneously pans the sonic performance and/or value of a piece of audio equipment (because of their over reliance on objective testing), then potential buyers get scared off resulting in lost value for the seller. You are right, I hadn’t thought of that.

It should go without saying that buying any audio equipment based on any third party recommendation, without first listening in one’s room with one’s equipment is fraught with problems and a crap shoot.

@kuribo - BINGO!

Relying on any one source of information for purchasing choices, whether the manufacturer’s marketing babble, reported measurements, professional reviewers, or posts on forum sites like this may very well lead to disappointment, particularly without thoroughly listening to whatever is being purchased and preferably in one’s own system.

I fail to understand the level of anger and name-calling that results from the ASR site posting measurements and their personal opinions, while it is apparently ok for the "wisdom of the masses" on sites like this to encourage people to spend thousands of dollars on multi-colored fuses, expensive cables, incomprehensible tweaks, or digital add-ons and doodads that become obsolete about every two years as the manufacturer releases the next latest and greatest. Did someone kill a sacred cow?

This stuff is a common byproduct of free enterprise, which is still a better system than the alternative. You can learn to protect yourself (and your money) with knowledge, experience, and street savvy.

It’s about their malicious campaign against audiophiles in all audio social sites

I guess I have never noticed this, maybe because I do not know who "they" are.  Is Amir a poster here, or at Audio Asylum, or at What's Best Forum, or another site?  Is there an organized cadre of ASR members who purposely campaign against subjective evaluation of audio equipment?  I am not arguing, but I just haven't seen it outside of the typical back and forth that goes on here.

Ok, so I am really trying to keep up here. Apparently, an amplifier measured well on the test-bench and was well-reviewed by one reviewer while a second reviewer reported that although the amp “measured very well,” it just wasn’t his cup of tea.

Based on that information, you concluded that the people who still own and use the well-measuring amp are obviously “naive objectivists” with poor hearing, while those who have moved on did so because the subjective review of the experienced second reviewer is “invaluable” and should be "taken into consideration by any buyer" of this amp.

Simply brilliant!

blind cultist

Blind, or double blind??😎

I see the vitriol and name calling continues without pause.  That usually happens when people are afraid of something.  Is Amir really that scary?

@rudyb +1

So yes ... some people are snobs, and over spenders. But hey ... if someone likes to buy it and is happy with his purchase all is well, isn’t it?

And if there are people who like to warn that some ’high end’ audio equipment have false (marketing) claims and some is 100x higher priced than the net worth of the components used, than that’s OK too, isn’t it?

To your questions - yes! and yes! but apparently not with some or there wouldn't be any reason for this thread. 

No sacred cows were harmed during the writing of this post 🐄🐮

@rudyb +2

As long as measurements are not brought upon us as better or worse ’sound quality’ and as long as subjective hearing is not brought upon us as a fact, maybe we can all appreciate each others measurements and opinions and live peacefully together?

Another simple but yet insightful observation - thank you.

I appreciate that @amir_asr has shown up amidst the noxious climate of this thread to respond to the many inflammatory statements.  I don't need to believe or refute the information provided on ASR, but I can learn from it while abiding by their rules.  For those who can get past the concept that everyone doesn't need to agree or think the same, diversity can be interesting and insightful especially when delivered with civility.

@lanx0003

I don’t think a healthy, civilized society like AG should censor / ban amir or any person like him as asr / amir did to others. But we could choose to ignore him simply because you could not win the argument with a dictator from a third-world community like putin. His seemingly non-toxic statements filled with toxic tone / attitude should always be ignored.

This is a good example of how name-calling replaces meaningful dialogue and incites others, i.e., AG is a "healthy, civilized society" while ASR is run by a toxic, third world, dictator like Putin...really? I don’t need to be told what to ignore since I can think for myself.  Pass the bong please.

This is just awesome, first, @kota1 posts this welcoming message:

@smprather welcome to the forum...I think you will find the process very non confrontational and supportive.

Then the belittling follow-up by @fleschler 

@smprather  You just joined Audiogon so that you could post to support Amir.  You've been an ASR member for 3 years and posted 3 times.  Wow!!! Impressive. 

It would be hard to make this stuff up.

@rudyb +1

I actually have no idea what the whole discussion is about. Scientific measurements can deduct a certain device measures better than another [within the tested parameter], and listening tests can deduct a person likes a certain sound more than another. These are two entirely different things, and both can live perfectly together.

Possibly the most reasonable post of this entire thread. 

@ghasley 

Thinly veiled disciples of a cult “subjectively” preaching to a crowd of those who know better…then when the preaching doesn’t work they continue to sermonize with neither an invitation nor a rational purpose for continuing.

Please clarify, which side is the “cult”?   
With both sides playing a zero-sum game, there is no room for compromise or understanding.