Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

I don't think anyone here is weird enough to push the line that a magic wood from the Amazon jungles will give you that special sound.

That's a keeper.

Just don’t interect with ASR. They’re very rude (unless you agree with them).

@djones51 Is excellent advice.

Quite so. ASR exists and will continue to do so for those who desire information and education which is demonstrably not acceptable to many on this forum.

Why do people here who have an issue with ASR even bother looking at what ASR has to convey about a product?

Like anti-smokers or a long standing smoker of a range of brands based on their taste or aroma and other subjective qualities maintaining their angst about a site that discusses the best brands of cigarettes or tobacco based on a chemical analysis of the cigarettes or tobacco (there are several thousand chemicals). Of course the best brands site will block you.

And this is an issue? Why?

This is predominately an American forum, and I am not an American so I don’t even pretend to understand.

@agisthos Amir and his cultists are the real life of the party.

Exactly, which "party" do you speak of?

I know you can , because you have been very careful in what you feel as the defining the thresholds required by competent engineers.

Step 2 is open to interpretation.  DBT is another topic - not a bullet point.

@juanmanuelfangioii Critical thinking and listening are skills. Amir has neither of these?

You have made an unsubstantiated accusation. Prove it beyond reasonable doubt for all on Audiogon to bookmark. For the record.

Don’t assume that the readers of your many comments here have an IQ in the double digits.

By the way, Amir sometimes also has issues with correct punctuation and grammar skills.. Maybe you should correct him on that, too.

Oh, wait.

@juanmanuelfangioii So @noske you are a faithful follower of the brother John Birch?

The brother John Birch is unknown to me. 

Should that be a question rather than an assertion as it is phrased, the answer is obviously no.

@laoman  For the record.... Testing a Leema Acoustics Dac. He plugged it into a 120 volt main and nothing happened - no output. It took him a half hour to work out it needed 230 volts. This is the man whose measurements some trust. 

The measurements provided are what the audio analyser Audio Precision APx555 spits out.  

It is not uncommon for people who are American to forget that much of the rest of the world operates on variants of 240V (220, 230) and 50 Hz.

@invalid Science can be manipulated, take damping factor for instance, it can be measured at 1khz instead of 20hz to 20khz.

Or, take output impedance. The spec may say 100 ohms or whatever, but at low frequencies, say at 20hz, it may be several thousand ohms.

The spec is a single data point.. That is not science, and in fact quite the opposite to what you state. It is marketing, and that is OK if you are of a forgiving nature which I know many here on AG are.

I only know what I said in my first paragraph because of the knowledge revealed by ASR in a review of a Schiit pre-amp some years ago where a full frequency sweep was taken. That is science - total transparency, pimples!!

@fleschler The comments made here include Amir’s lack of adequate testing. Damping at 1Khz or 20hz to 20khz....which nearly all published reviewers talk about.

I’d enjoy you providing links to a sample of those published reviews should you be so kind. I am always keen to know more about damping factor principles.

@cd318 Their vehemence might not look so amazing if they have a  were obligated to disclose their vested interest in promoting high priced equipment.

Fixed.

@quiet When I read this topic and all the posts, it reminds me of arguments between theists and atheists.

To an outsider, perhaps.  In reality it is all prompted by an increase in scientific and  technical awareness thanks to ASR and a consequent rapidly diminishing appetite for uber expensive gear.  

Join the dots as to what motivation the ASR detractors real agenda is.  I don't think the most vocal posters are doing their cause much good, and in fact is probably encouraging many people reading this to check out ASR for themselves.

The law of unintended consequences.

@juanmanuelfangioii Crikey that was a load of💩

Excuse me? You are too afraid to say the word despite being full of it on this thread?

Declare your interest in having ASR discredited. You are not a troll, just puerile and probably out of your depth on a forum seeking adult discussion...

@kota1 Now imagine an "open minded" poster goes their [sic] and posts valid metrics that don’t support Amir.

Please do so.

edit - I just saw the previous post after posting that request.

Since when has a poster using the derogatory and racist word/phrase/description "Chi-fi" been an acceptable contributor to AudioGon?

@jerryg123 Attention K-Mart shoppers under the blue light is a Topping DAC.

Topping DAC D90SE is USD$799.

Should that be K-Mart price to you, then we are no longer friends.

@fleschler Here at Audiogon, @quiet can voice his opinion without posters casting negative aspersions on his character or person. We disagree with his statements presented as facts. However, he is a troll based on his recent Audiogon status and adamant disregard for alternative facts.

I’m pleaased that the collective we alllow @quiet his opinion - the tribe on this occasion are most generous.
In the absence of evidence provided by the owners of this forum, you have no basis upon which to judge the character of a person who posts here.

Your own character must be at issue first.  Should AG mods disagree, then let them say it.

@juanmanuelfangioii So I shut you down an Chi Fi shouldn’t your woke butt be in bed? The dingos are circling your cabin @noske

That can only be construed as an online threat. AGon mods - who is this guy?

@jerryg123 You were never my friend and Topping crap would not even be in my daughters dorm room. She has a Simaudio ACE.

Your circa teenage daughter has a high end stereo system in her dorm room?  That's swell.  Entitled.

@jerryg123 she is a genius and only 16 and in her second year at Northwestern

So, she may take a class in psychology and perhaps learn the nuances of projectionism, narcissistic behaviour and other related unacceptable social behaviour.

Might gently teach her Dad who is recovering from a major stroke a thing or two.about kindness.

@kota1 you don't post what is gospel at the altar of ASR= ban.

Please share the circumstances under which you were banned by ASR.  Feel free to be expansive.

@jerryg123 green is not a good color for you.

Oh yes - maroon is something you shared with me that time.  I agree, I prefer the colours of ambience.

@kota1 I had no idea the word is out about those members at ASR losing all that money for nothing

Says he who has posted 14 comments here bagging ASR.  It was huge news, recently.

My advice - rule number one - before you attack, know your enemy.  Just the basics is necessary, but to do so this is not sufficient.  You didn't know.

Only then may you be credible.

Children don’t understand the strategy and logistics of war.

Let me post a couple of things and then that’s it. Someone above posted that ASR looks at shoddy workmanship, and I agree that is great. If people are shelling out big money or even moderate amounts then people deserve to know if something is built properly.

That is tremendous news. @laoman 

The skilled engineers and those who measure some very important metrics may no longer fear your clawed talon.

@kota1 The only "bombs" going off around here are truth bombs. Dude, I am only trying to save you some dough, unlike some people at ASR I don’t need your advice,

I disagree about truth bombs being activated. There is a great deal of second hand womens kinda gossip - hence my surprise when you admitted that you did not know about the PA5 debacle.

No, you don’t need my advice to steer clear of idle gossip and hearsay, you are well prepared to contribute as a keyboard warrior.

@kota1 Of course it is sexist. Get over it. In my current occupation I work with 40 women and 4 men. Women are light years ahead of us naive blokes being able to get away with un-corroborated gossip. True by definition.

I log on to AG and see, oh, I’m back at work.  More women pretending to be men.

@laoman Given your open hostility and generally confronting and aggressive manner, would it make any difference to you and the tag team here at AG were Amir to answer any of your leading questions?

If so, how?  

@laoman @Noske,

In my culture we are taught to be gentle to those people who are not completely normal as they cannot help themselves. Consequently I will no longer respond to you. I wish you well.

I understand. Thankyou on this occasion for your generosity of spirit in explaining to others about your own predicament.  In psychology it is called projectionism.

In the meantime, others may wish to know the answer to my quite simple question - is that too difficult?

@tonywinga Plenty of accredited journals exist to review and assess the latest technology and offerings.

Name a few of these accredited journals.  Include their accreditation status by the appropriate body.

@laoman I find it interesting that Amir did not answer one of my questions. I wonder why?

Maybe Amir chooses to respond only to people with higher functioning cognitive abilities. Not interesting at all for those here who watch what you post.

@russ69 If I had to sum up why websites like ASR are not that interesting to me;

I would say firstly, they have an emphasis on low price gear, a segment I don't often shop in.

Is this a reason why many on the forum are dismayed at the rigorous and hard marking provided by Amir?   

You are entitled to not concern yourself with buying the best, despite its modest price..  Nobody cares except the rapidly failing high end components bricks and mortar market.  And the site we are currently on - enjoy it while you can.

 

@russ69 The high-end market is very strong with more choices than we have ever had. There is a shift away from the brick and mortar business model but online and direct sales are booming! Business is good.  

I am pleased to know that your business in high-end audiophile gear is good.

I think that it is important for everyone to know this for future reference.

@russ69 I'm sure this is sarcasm but unsure how you think that is funny? 

Some childish women may interpret facts as sarcasm or being funny.  To that I have no retort.

@laoman You clearly have no idea who you are talking, what my qualifications are and for whom I have worked.

Because you introduce this aspect of yourself, it is now imperative that you elaborate for the avoidance of doubt.

@moto_man I suggest a good start would be to compare like with like, and at the most basic this would mean the same AWG. Same length, same connectors.

Anything else is meaningless because you may be comparing things that are not alike in their physical characteristics. 

If stock is 20 AWG, and the $$$ ones are say 12 or 14 AWG and are a few metres shorter, yes, you will hear a difference.  They will measure differently.

Our final word to those that yap should be to quote Jorge of Burgos:

Pedas per os tuum.

You (plural) are now speaking in tongues?  

@crymeanaudioriver Many of you who got turfed at ASR were flat earth followers visiting a science site. What did you expect?

Its all rather odd, perhaps confined to American culture, because I have not seen this level of self pity anywhere else..

Like if a bloke walks into the women’s shower room and is not only surprised when he is booted out, but then goes onto pontificate at the standards observed in their shower room and the poor quality of nakedness he observed.

@cd318

Dare I suggest it’s a simple matter of vested financial interests?

The subjectivists approach actively encourages consumers to spend, spend, spend ever increasingly large amounts of money on equipment and cabling.

Most of them usually include an ad hoc performance league masquerading as a buyer’s guide that always correlates with increasing prices.

Which reminds me of Robert Harley’s contention, not just recently but also from some years ago, that audio components follow his own law of increasing/accelerating marginal returns (as opposed to decreasing).

So, if you spend another 10%, you will be gifted with something that is more than 10% better in every respect (appreciating that this has nothing to do with the level of expenditure, rather, a comparison between two levels).

Plus if I don’t like it. refund that bad boy.

That policy must be particular to America. In my country, there are conditions on the reasons you may wish for and be provided a refund - not liking it is not one of them.

Such a liberal policy in America has unintended consequences on a number of levels.  But that is what is known as micro-economics and out of bounds on this esteemed forum.

@kota1

You control everyone at ASR and we have a consensus of members here who feel you heavily censor your site and bannish contributors on a whim.

ASR has possibly hundreds of active members and dozens of threads, without checking. Such power of control that you attribute to Amir! The bloke must never sleep.

There are here a few disgruntled folk here who feel entitled to have their say on a forum about which they are shocked, horrified and mortified.

I’d bannish myself on a whim were I to insist on pushing the general guidelines to such a point that I became the antipathy of what the spirit of the forum is intended to convey.

I made an innocent mistake on an unrelated forum a while ago and was banished for making light of a certain person in high office. I was unaware of certain strict protocols.

I own my mistake, however innocent it may have been.

Is this becoming a right to free speech discussion?

There is a right to remain silent when confronted with an angry crowd, as some may know goes back a couple millennium.

@crymeanaudioriver 

If you have to resort to lying to make your point, I can only assume your position is weak

"Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak" - Sun Tzu, the Art of War.

@crymeanaudioriver

With a margin of likely well over 1000%, I don’t think some returns or even a lot of returns is an issue. Even 50% would be totally acceptable.

Amazon’s return rate I think is close to 20%.

Those are quite astonishing statistics.

I am actually very careful to only buy from vendors who do not offer any marketing guarantees as to their generous return policy. . Think.

 @russ69 

I didn’t need a DBT to hear the difference, they were head and shoulders above the rest. Arnie had the education (Physics)

This is tremendous information that you share. 

I, and perhaps other contributors on this thread, thankyou for sharing your profound epiphany at having found someone with a physics education after having visited every stereo shop in SoCal.

@cleeds

That’s interesting. "Satisfaction guaranteed or your money back" is a common guarantee in the US, although often with a time limit.

Not really interesting. Consumer law guarantees certain rights to both vendor and buyer which cannot be denied for a year, maybe two.

The statement you quoted is a business decision by the vendor - time limit 30 days or so? Who pays for all the fuses that are returned within that time period, because they didn’t like them?

Either you make a product that people wanna keep for the duration of their expected lives, or refund them if it is faulty.  Not simply because ya tried and didn't like - that is such an expensive business decision whereby the consumer takes on the risks of other consumers before him who were didn't like the fuse.

 It's perfectly legal to offer a "cash and carry, as-is, no refund" policy.

Now we are off topic but with the grace of the mods - that policy is common for used goods, of course. 

I speak only of new items.  That narrows it down. If I sold you a new IPhone with the no refund policy I'd be breaking the law of my country,   Which is not America.