Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

@asctim 

"I agree that ASR puts an awful lot of weight on measurements that are way beyond audible. But that fact it is mentioned and acknowledge frequently on the forum, even by Amir himself."

 

Yes, they do acknowledge this, and it's quite unfair to portray them as unflinchingly rigid in their opinions. Amir himself is not above apologising for mistakes. They do call themselves Audio Science Review.

 

 

"Some people want to see where the state of the art is, and it is amazing how quiet and distortion free they can make equipment even at very moderate prices these days.

If anyone can show new measurements that reveal how the expensive equipment is really outperforming the moderately priced stuff I'm very open to it."

 

Me too.

 

"If some amp or streamer or other electronic audio device is readily preferred by a vast majority of listeners under blind testing but there's no measurement known to indicate why, that would be fascinating.

Nothing of the sort is going on out there that I know of."

 

Me neither.

 

Of course ASR are not the only ones taking the logical scientific approach to assessing playback performance.

Audioholics and Erin's Audio Corner on YouTube are just 2 such examples of this welcome trend to combine data analysis and subjective listening.

 

If you're in the business of selling audio products you really need to accept which way the wind is blowing.

ASR isn't suggesting that folks shouldn't buy more expensive equipment if that's what they want, just as long as they aren't being deceived that they're getting better playback performance.

 

People are free to spend their money as they see fit. If you want a more powerful amp, or more features, better build quality, reliability, customer service etc then these are all valid reasons to spend more.

There should be no need for deception, manipulation, betrayal of trust etc.

 

 

@jtgofish 

If you want to really get under the skin of the ASR thought police bring up the years of Hi Fi Choice unsighted group test reviews which consistently described significant differences between the sound of components and ranked them accordingly.

 

Yes, I used to feel the same way about Hi-Fi Choice's so called blind listening tests.

That is until I realised that they hardly ever had a consistently unanimous result.

 

Sometimes a group winner would be someone's least preferred choice.

As was stated earlier, this rendered the group tests as mere opinion.

Even worse, they hardly ever subject an item to a repeat test as subsequent tests can contradict earlier ones.

This month's group test winner would be next month's old news.

I remember a group test of valve amplifiers where the group test went totally against the verdict of an earlier highly favourable review in the same magazine by long time reviewer, the one and only Malcolm Steward.

I was saddened to learn of Malcolm's death in 2020. He seemed to be one of those likeable people you thought that would be around forever.

As far as reviewers go, and that's usually not very far, he was one of the best.

@djones51

 

@tonywinga

'Science brought us cellphones and high yield crops to feed the world. Pseudoscience is politically charged technobabble that benefits the few.'

 

Once upon a time scientists toiled away in their spare time hoping to leave behind them more than a footnote in the annals of their chosen field.

Later on it was the Nobel prize and the prizemoney that went with it.

Or perhaps a tenureship at a prestigious university.

Nowadays, more often than not they find themselves toiling away to enable their employer to increase their profits. Truth and honesty are dangerous words which can lead to instant termination of contracts.

 

Yet not everyone is given to feeding the globalists unquenchable thirst for ever greater profits. There are still many fine people who work selflessly for the common good.

You only need to look online for free Open Source software for evidence of that. I would argue that sites like ASR fall into the same camp.

 

@mitch2

'I fail to understand the level of anger and name-calling that results from the ASR site posting measurements and their personal opinions, while it is apparently ok for the "wisdom of the masses" on sites like this to encourage people to spend thousands of dollars on multi-colored fuses, expensive cables, incomprehensible tweaks, or digital add-ons and doodads that become obsolete about every two years as the manufacturer releases the next latest and greatest.

Did someone kill a sacred cow?'

 

Maybe not a sacred cow, perhaps merely someone’s high yielding cash cow .

If sites like ASR continue to expose poorly engineered overpriced equipment then quite rightly it might affect sales.

Unfortunately, as we’ve recently seen all over the globe, not everyone has the consumers best interests at heart.

Thankfully, someone still does.

@jtgofish

The real concern about ASR is that they are unlike any other audio forum on the planet in that they actively censor and shout down anybody who dares to express any experience based opinion.

 

 

Wasn’t that the whole point of ASR?

To get away from purely subjective forums where one routinely contradicts the previous one?

As the likes of Dr Sean Olive and Dr Floyde Toole have stated, it’s their wish to escape from audio’s seemingly endless circle of confusion where X is sometimes better than Y, and sometimes y is better than X.

Where we don’t know what a recording is supposed to sound like because we have no idea of technical limitations of the original monitoring loudspeakers that were used in the recording.

By introducing some generally accepted scientifically measured reference points we may finally be able to escape from this seemingly inescapable audio maze.

We know that some of the monitors used in studios on the 1950s and 1960s didn’t always have the flattest of frequency responses.

Therefore what chance have we of hearing those songs as they were intended if we are now using loudspeakers that have a markedly different frequency response?

Bring into the equation different masterings, different rooms and different amplification and this circle becomes very confusing indeed.

Frankly, isn’t it saying something that there are some here that seem to be so intolerant of an entirely different perspective on an entirely different audio forum?

Is Amir really that threatening, or is it merely what he's saying?

 

https://pro.harman.com/insights/enterprise/broadcast/tech-talks-how-accurate-reference-monitoring-can-end-the-circle-of-confusion/

 

@jtgofish 

But like any idealistic concept the enforcement can become toxic and counter-productive. Just like communism and religion.

 

Sadly that's all too often the case.

However, if anyone can resist the temptations of chasing wealth and fame, it's Amir.

He comes across as a man of principles.

Seemingly a rare thing nowadays.

 

@henry99 

Are you listing to your music or just buying what your told?

 

No doubt the Salon 2s are good speakers. It would even seem as if Revel themselves are unable to improve upon them.

However, that's a good question. 

Whether we like it or not, it's impossible to hear everything that's out there, and so we have to turn to third party opinions.

But exactly whose should we trust?

Personally I'd put forums like this ahead of any paid opinion. Old habits die hard but years of disappointment also have an effect.

Eventually.

 

@thyname

Most people only read stuff that aligns with what they believe in, and ignore reading everything else.

 

You might believe that but you are most likely being manipulated.

There are many unscrupulous people on the internet who will try to do that to you.

I tend to use Firefox browser and Duckduckgo search with an indispensable adblocker of course.

When I look at the amount of cookies and trackers that are still following me I remind myself to use the incognito tab more often

 

As for the determined evils of Google, don’t get me started.

--------

8 Reasons Why Google is Evil

https://thebosh.com/10-reasons-why-google-is-evil/

 

@thyname 

This is my last post on this thread. I learned a few days ago from my friend, screenshots of every single post of mine in this thread were sent to ASR. Along with a printout of my LinkedIn page, real persona, photo, current employment, work history, the whole nine yards of my private info. And I know who sent it. It did not surprise me.

 

 

That's 5 surprising sentences in a row.

Each one more disturbing than the one before it.

At the very least people should lock down their own personal details as far as they can.

No one should have any right to share someone's else's employment and work history online without consent.

Here in the UK we have GDPR legislation to stop things like that, not that it stops tech giants like Google and Facebook from collating as much personal data as they can.

However, even they are not supposed to share it with others.

If you're certain that this data breach has happened, at the very least you should contact ASR and ask for its immediate removal.

@fleschler

Genres: hip-hop, reggae, ska, punk, alternative rock, trash metal, industrial, 90s techno, progressive techno, dnb, narco corridos, cumbia

Are these music genres adequate to evaluate audio equipment?’

 

Maybe not so much on here, but certainly on a site that places such overwhelmingly heavy emphasis on measurements.

 

’I mentioned that jazz could be more appropriate (I didn’t mention classical music or classic rock and pop). I was scolded for mentioning it.’

 

Now come on, you can hardly be surprised by that, can you?

 

The folks over there see equipment as being merely a tool to playback recordings as accurately as possible.

The genre of the music would be of secondary importance to them.

 

A bit like a racing car designer who wants to build the best car he can regardless of the circuits (eg Monte Carlo or Hockenheim) that it will be racing on.

 

For me personally I would always use some classical music because that’s the best for determining accurate instrument tonality and I would always use pop because that’s what I listen to most.

My approach is not necessarily any better, but merely an attempt to shove the inevitable compromises of any audio equipment into an area where they would bother me the least.

With the ASR approach you are far more likely to get a system for all seasons.

@vonhelmholtz

Now, to eject someone for preferring to select equipment through a listening regime seems a bit over the top, but there are many other online communities that don’t censor content. Ok..there are still some websites that don’t shape content.

 

Let’s hope so.

I’m still a little disturbed after reading about the incredible lengths in customer profiling that some businesses have to go to nowadays to compete in making a buck.

Heck, there was even an example of where the admen’s algorithm knew of a young woman’s pregnancy before her parents did.

Just by collating their shopping habit data!

Thankfully, we audiophiles are not their main campaign target, that’s usually pregnant women who will need to spend a small fortune to raise their child.

As for the increasing use of predictive software such as Hit Song Science and the like, it’s almost a direct attack upon freedom of choice.

http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/Science-Fiction-News.asp?NewsNum=314

 

@gosta

Thanks for the HAEVN - City Lights (LVNDSCAPE REMIX) recommendation.

I will check it out via Amazon Music this Thursday.

@jerryg123 

 

@rtorchia 

I am still amazed at the vehemence of the attacks on Amir and his following on this thread. All he is doing is applying scientific criteria to his reviews of audio components. Additionally, he provides extremely valuable insights into craftsmanship that is often sadly lacking in high priced equipment.

 

Their vehemence might not look so amazing if they have a vested interest in promoting high priced equipment.

Not when their most sacred cash cows are being led to the slaughter by Klippel. 

For them, what Amir is doing is not kosha and it's not halal.

Such is the way of the world of man and money.

Perhaps we need a timeout here to assess just what we are debating as there seems to be a conflation of several issues here.

 

Some seem to object to reviews primarily based upon technical assessment. Even when that is clearly the stated intent of ASR.

Some seem to be attacking Amir's personal integrity. A little strange considering the fact that he has openly declared his previous affiliation with Harman Kardon.

Some seem to be challenging Amir's ability to carry out the measurements without providing any examples of how it could have been done better.

Some simply seem to regard the existence of ASR as a personal attack upon their own beliefs and systems.

 

So which is it to be?

Or are all science based review sites such as the following, the real problem here?

 

Archimago's Musings 

 

Audioholics

 

 

Erin's Audio Corner

https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/

@laoman

Thanks for the link.

Yes, it was an interesting read.

No doubt there is a crossover of readership between the 2 sites and why not?

Amir himself has stated that measurements currently only account for 70% in predicting how a loudspeaker sounds.

 

It’s that remaining 30% that should keep us all going for a few years yet.

@amir_asr

Welcome to AG, and thanks for responding to some of the questions raised here.

 

Alas, I suspect that, despite your best intentions, that earlier post by @rtorchia will prove prescient.

 

"Amir, your detractors here have a collective motto: “Don’t confuse us with the facts because we know we are right.” It is thus improbable that they will give you a fair hearing."

 

@smprather

"If you want to debate speakers with me, then first watch this video on Floyd Toole’s landmark research (link below).

.....

"If you don’t believe in blind A/B/X testing to verify your assertions, then please don’t debate anything with me. You’re an audio theologist with money to spare, not a scientist."

 

Well said! Your request seems sensible enough for anyone with a genuine desire to educate themselves with at least some of the fundamentals of loudspeaker science, but again, alas I don’t see many takers so far.

Perhaps others here could chime in so we can establish a broader consensus?

 

@crymeanaudioriver 

@amir_asr , I appreciate that you came to this thread and approached it with civility and respect and even an attempt to deliver, at times, an even handed education.

I will caution you, though, I can see the frustration seeping into your posts, and I expect the urge to "lash out" gets stronger every time you return.

If it is any consolation, you are not the first to go through this, or the probably even the 100th, and you will not be the last. I see it at least monthly, maybe more. Stay focused.

This is but a small part of the audio world declining in influence.

The only thing most of the participants in this thread are influencing is the marketing that targets them.

 

 

That was quite brilliant.

@fleschler

I’m sure that I’m not the only one here who feels your frustration but that’s a little disappointing.

What need is there for this kind of bad blood letting here?

 

@djones51

"My only "belief" is I don’t want to alter the signal I’m given, to me measurements will tell me more about whether that is happening than a hearing mechanism cobbled together by evolution."

"Speakers and room I can adjust to what I like..."

 

 

In a nutshell, exactly. Replay equipment needs to be sufficiently accurate to the signal it’s given, otherwise it’s likely to be adding audible distortion.

Some might even prefer that added distortion but that’s not really the point of ASR.

When those who follow such a different opposing philosophy it often seems unlikely the two opposing sides can ever be reconciled on such a divisive matter of faith.

This schism between the objectivists on one hand and the subjectivists (+ a few ’high end dealers?) on the other is probably the biggest one there is in audio.

However it’s fairly obvious which side ASR falls on, isn’t it, and that’s hardly likely to change anytime soon, is it?

@crymeanaudioriver

I don't know your backstory @cd318 mine is in the sciences. I fully admit I went through the same as you did. I probably spent a small fortune on audio magazines, tried all the tricks, etc.   I don't consider it a sign of weakness to admit I was mistaken. Is that why some are so ardent that they will not even challenge their own beliefs. They don't want to admit weakness?  Perhaps I could have related to it when I was younger, but today it is very foreign to me. It's a conscious decision to not grow.

 

 

Yes it is, but that's what time and life can often do to you.

Fortunately or unfortunately, life only lets us go forwards so it's often a question of whether to retreat or grow?

Reminds me of that Bob Dylan line he wrote when he was no more than 23 or 24,

"He not busy being born is busy dying,". 

 

@axo1989 

I’m not a former/converted subjectivist, however, so I don’t have recovery PTSD to contend with or commiserate over.

 

Glad to hear it.

We don't need any more folks becoming disgruntled with the endless review fuelled ladder climbing shenanigans that eventually don't lead to anywhere, do we?

I'm sure that sites like ASR can certainly help when it comes to  audiophile post traumatic stress disorders. 🙂

 

Reviews are usually best taken with a pinch of salt.

At the weekend I finally got to hear a brand of often well reviewed loudspeakers that feature horn loaded drivers.

Just within a few seconds I was surprised at just how excessive their 'smiley EQ curve' presentation was. For me, they were unlistenable, and yet many seem to like that kind of presentation.

Including some notable magazine and YouTube reviewers.

Tastes are individual, fair enough, but their midrange suckout would surely show up on any frequency measurement chart as a huge problem if you were seeking accuracy.

It did leave me wondering a little just how such speakers get so many respectable reviews.

On the other hand I also heard some Bayz Audio Courantes Courante speakers which sounded totally different to anything else in the show.

Despite, given their price, their terrible looks (a distant grown up version of the Linkwitz LX Mini?) they sounded fabulous. A totally box free and a more life-like presentation than anything else at the show.

Unfortunately the demonstrator seemed determined to keep playing the same 6/7 well recorded jazz/ instrumenal tracks all day so we never got to hear just how good they were with anything else.

Nowadays I would say that if you're not going to go via the measurements route then it's absolutely essential to audition speakers with a wide variety of music if you want to check them for accuracy.

Even the most diehard of subjectivists must sometimes ask themselves how much accuracy matters to them, surely?

Perhaps it's this question of accuracy that this sometimes heated debate is really all about?

Extreme subjectivists might not care for it, some others might dispute our existing means of testing it, but the rest of us all do want playback accuracy, don't we?

@amir_asr

Once more: listening tests are the gold standard in audio research. No one is telling you to substitute measurements for it.

What we say is that don’t go believing marketing claims that have no verification with controlled testing, or make sense at engineering level. We prove the latter with measurements. Company claims the power conditioner lowers your audio system noise? Well, we measure that. If the result is that noise has not changed one bit, then you know the claim was wrong.

Why is this so odd for the few of you to accept?
You say your local water is making you sick? Folks come out and measure to see what is in it. If it is pure and clean, then that is very important information.

Importantly, don’t confuse creation of art with replay of it. Our business is the latter. The two are completely different universes. Audio equipment should NOT be in the business of creating or modifying art. If it is, then it is not high fidelity. And will impart the same signature on every music you play -- something I dislike dearly.

As to what you think you are hearing, that is NOT in doubt. What is in doubt is what you say it means when you did not block all other senses than your ear.

 

Wouldn’t it be great if these words could be accepted as a starting point for all further discussions?

Unfortunately, it appears that some people do not, can not, will not agree with the above and subsequently any further discussions are a waste of time.

 

"Audio equipment should NOT be in the business of creating or modifying art. If it is, then it is not high fidelity. And will impart the same signature on every music you play -- something I dislike dearly."

 

A very good argument for the importance of the playback system to be as neutral and as uncoloured as possible.

 

"Why is this so odd for the few of you to accept?"

 

Now there’s a question that must have been asked countless times around various negotiating tables worldwide.

Some foible of human nature?

Lack of cognitive ability to focus or listen?

Contrariness?

Vested conflicting financial/emotional interests?

Or just plain pig headedness?

"I don’t like you, so I’m not agreeing to anything you say."

 

Whatever it is, it’s something that’s eluded mankind since forever and I doubt we’ll find any solution here.

@rockrider 

I firmly believe our current state of knowledge cannot fully describe the sound quality that will result from a given system/room. 

 

You're not alone.

I don't think anyone has made such a claim.

As stated earlier, even Amir doesn't believe that measurements alone cannot predict better than 70% of how a loudspeaker will sound.

Perhaps we'd be better off trying to establish just what this remaining remaining unknown 30% might be?

Perhaps tone and texture fall into this category, as I'm not sure how they can be currently measured at present.

 

@rtorchia 

Given that the audio subjectivists are so skeptical of science, why do  they so readily believe wild and unsubstantiated claims concocted by manufacturers of all sorts of cables, power conditioners, power supplies, etc.?

 

Wishful thinking?

Overoptimism?

Double standards?

Or just plain desperation after years of chasing after that elusive 'perfect' sound?

Perhaps for audiophiles, enticing promises from manufacturers and designers are always easier to accommodate than challenging rebukes and warnings from well meaning third parties?

At just what point the individual loses control over his purchasing intentions and gives in to compulsion is no doubt a question of great interest to marketers worldwide.

 

 

@djones51

I was more an objectivist long before ASR existed so it isn’t surprising to say I have learned a lot more from ASR than this one but I never really considered Audigon as a site to learn but a site to buy and sell and shoot the breeze on forums. Some of the discussions here are interesting but some are outright bizarre, for instance, colored fuses, exotic cabling, magic mats in mains panels to name a few. At any rate adios.

 

I didn’t get such a good start. I went into this hobby fairly clueless. I just wanted a system that sounded good to my ears.

I read magazines and built a knowledge base from that. I even got into the tweakery side once I become a little bored with my Rega/NAD based system.

I remember a fair bit of dabbling with cables, power supplies, speaker stands/spikes on screws, CD players, amplifiers, even putting a few CDs into the freezer overnight.

Eventually the realisation began to dawn upon me that the information I’d read in the magazines was more or less a complete work of fiction.

None of the above made any significant improvement to the sound I was getting. At best they were subliminal differences, nothing more.

Pro audio was always more science based but it never waxed lyrical about products the way domestic audio did. There was little or no fantasy, and being a subjectivist, I craved for that fantasy.

In some ways I still do, except I now understand that systems which are not adept at playing all genres are of little use to me. Those kinds of systems, despite many strengths, tend to have one or two serious flaws.

Sites like ASR will readily point out these serious flaws in a way that magazines will never do. That kind of information can prove invaluable in helping avoid seriously expensive mistakes. That kind of information will never be found in magazine reviews.

At best they are subjectivist entertainment, nothing more. At worst they are little more than a collusive practice with mutual benefits for the manufactures, dealers and reviewers.

Their victim is always the consumer. I should know. I’ve been there, time and time again.

Sites like ASR, Erin’s Music Corner and Archimago’s Musings as well as some Pro Audio publications can certainly help you avoid equipment with serious technical flaws.

There is a good reason why such sites are unpopular with many people, and it’s usually down to vested personal interests

Just look at the mountain of criticism given to blind listening tests and yet hardly a word said against the corresponding sighted tests??

I would implore even the most hardened subjectivist to take with them a wide variety of music with which to test products. You will learn next to nothing with the kind of well recorded instrumental jazz you hear at most shows.

That kind of Muzak does not reveal system weaknesses, it seeks to hide them. Even if that’s all you listen to, you know the old cliche of the audiophile with a million highly subjectivist dollar system who only plays 2 or 3 CDs etc.

Perhaps the best non measurements based test of all is the human voice. There’s a good video from Ditton Works below that tries to make the same point.

 

 

@prof

"...that comes across as a dogmatic statement "You Can’t Change Our Minds!" Do you really want to seem that inflexible? Isn’t being open minded a two way street? It often seems that people using a purely subjective ("Golden Ear") paradigm will castigate the "objectivist" for not being open to their claims, but will remain stubbornly opposed to being open to the objectivist side."

 

That’s just it, some people are more than ready to accept opinions ahead of scientific evidence. To them it doesn’t seem to matter whose subjective opinion it is, or whether there are even conflicting subjective opinions, only the ones that they want to read or hear.

 

You could call it an entirely subjective confirmation bias.

 

This subjectivist v objectivist debate is one of the oldest in audio but when did it all begin?

 

Perhaps someone with a good knowledge of audio journalism could help here? Was it something to do with Gordon J Holt and Harry Pearson, the 2 big names of US journalism that I’ve heard of?

 

I’ve read that in the early days UK reviews were mainly focused around measurements. At some point, like much else, the American influence crossed the Atlantic and the UK magazines quicky followed suit in promoting increasingly subjective reviews.

A situation that has persisted for decades and is only now being challenged by sites such as ASR, Erin’s Music Corner, Archimago’s Musings, Audioholics etc.

The likes of Ethan Winter and late great Peter Aczel made a concerted effort to restore the balance back towards an objective approach but their efforts met with considerable resistance, derision and even personal attacks.

 

Doesn’t this sound a little familiar now?

 

Why is this the case?
Dare I suggest it’s a simple matter of vested financial interests?

 

The subjectivists approach actively encourages consumers to spend, spend, spend ever increasingly large amounts of money on equipment and cabling.

Most of them usually include an ad hoc performance league masquerading as a buyer’s guide that always correlates with increasing prices.

Spend, spend, spend!

This buyers is regularly updated with ’new and better’ products as they become available for purchase and quite callously renders yesteryear’s highly rated products as ’old news’.

Everyone from the manufacturers, the dealers, and the journalists seems to be happy with this state of affairs. Few dare to challenge this unwritten dictat.

 

Why bite the hand that feeds you?

 

Everyone, that is, apart from a growing number of consumers who are beginning to ask a few questions and demand a little more proof of these claims.

And this is where the main issue seems to lie.

An increasing demand for evidence based reviews and recommendations will inevitably threaten the livelihood of some of those with vested financial interests.

Some will no doubt adapt and adopt a more science based approach but others will be prepared to fight to the death rather than renounce their views.

Especially when it means a loss of earnings and income.

History has many examples of folks willing to die for their beliefs, usually political or religious, rather than renounce them. However, the pursuit of money is another powerful driving force that also seems to be incredibly difficult to renounce.

Such are the ways of mankind.