Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

@whipsaw 

I would have said this thread but a moderator removed most of the nasty attacks, name calling, and profanity:

 

 

@laoman

 

 

 

If they measure perfectly, why wouldn't he "talk highly" about them???

Perhaps because some of them sound like shite?

And there is the perfect example of the problem...people think their subjective opinions are fact. There are fans and detractors for most of the amps on the market. Opinions don't really mean much of anything in reality.

My wife is on a few knitting forums, on one of them if you bring up politics you’re banned.

The amplifier most recommended on ASR is not Chinese or class D.

I find no real value in subjective comments on forums such as this

Most of the discussions here can be classified as persiflage.  I've noticed that when things get technical the discussion quickly drops off but touchy feeling, "subjective" topics go on for quite a while.  I'm ok with both types of discussions.  They are fun. I find useful information on this site at times.  I would not depend on this site for advice spending $$$ on components.  Nor will I go by the advice of a salesman.  I have to hear them for myself and be convinced the component is robust and reliable.

A story about a buddy of mine who retired some years back and went to work as a salesman for a national tire chain.  He said that one day he gets a call from someone looking for tires for their new Corvette.  The guy says he had a BMW M5 and hated it.  The car practically drove itself he said.  The Corvette is great, he says, it has to be driven.  Some days later he got a call from someone wanting tires for their M5.  They traded in their Corvette for the M5.  They hated the Corvette.  They loved the M5 because it practically drove itself.  

Everybody likes what they like.  Measurements matter to the designers and builders.  

btw- I scour the tire data on the websites and the reviews before I buy.  I buy tires too infrequently to have an informed opinion.  I only know that I liked or disliked the tires that were on the car.  So my behavior is inconsistent but it is difficult to try tires before you buy.  In other words, sometimes we take our chances on a purchase and we will grasp at any information or data that we can find.

I'm always happy with the stereo gear I have until I hear something better...

Measurements?  We don't need no stinkin' measurements.

@jtgofish

The real concern about ASR is that they are unlike any other audio forum on the planet in that they actively censor and shout down anybody who dares to express any experience based opinion.

 

 

Wasn’t that the whole point of ASR?

To get away from purely subjective forums where one routinely contradicts the previous one?

As the likes of Dr Sean Olive and Dr Floyde Toole have stated, it’s their wish to escape from audio’s seemingly endless circle of confusion where X is sometimes better than Y, and sometimes y is better than X.

Where we don’t know what a recording is supposed to sound like because we have no idea of technical limitations of the original monitoring loudspeakers that were used in the recording.

By introducing some generally accepted scientifically measured reference points we may finally be able to escape from this seemingly inescapable audio maze.

We know that some of the monitors used in studios on the 1950s and 1960s didn’t always have the flattest of frequency responses.

Therefore what chance have we of hearing those songs as they were intended if we are now using loudspeakers that have a markedly different frequency response?

Bring into the equation different masterings, different rooms and different amplification and this circle becomes very confusing indeed.

Frankly, isn’t it saying something that there are some here that seem to be so intolerant of an entirely different perspective on an entirely different audio forum?

Is Amir really that threatening, or is it merely what he's saying?

 

https://pro.harman.com/insights/enterprise/broadcast/tech-talks-how-accurate-reference-monitoring-can-end-the-circle-of-confusion/

 

I want to mention that many of my direct to disc Japanese LPs from the 1970s have very explicit information on the recording chain including the monitors and a schematic of the mike setup/mixer.

cd318,Indeed that might have been the point of ASR.And that is fine.The theory is fine.The idea is fine.But like any idealistic concept the enforcement can become toxic and counter-productive.Just like communism and religion.

 

@tonywinga  I've mentioned in other forums that I built listening rooms in my prior home in 1993 and spent $150,000 in a high end design room built from scratch in 2019 in my current home (my last).  Everyone who hears my system now revels in the music and sound despite not having ultra high end equipment.  I do have lower cost high end equipment to complement the room.  I suspect that high end Von Schweikert speakers would have eliminated the need for such a great listening room but building in bass traps in the walls based on an activated carbon filter system in the walls didn't hurt.  

@cd318 "There are still many fine people who work selflessly for the common good."

No doubt.  And Marx was hoping that such was inherent human nature, and massaged and frankly made up "historical facts" to support the hope and turn hope into theory which then ran into reality.  Ironically, Marx never really was much of a "worker" himself, treated his own employees terribly, loved spa vacations, and was supported by the money of his buddy Engels' dad (a wealthy factory-owning industrial capitalist)... 

But sure, many fine people work for the "common good," which however is usually open to interpretation and therein lies the rub.  It is possible that the founders of ASR believe themselves to be working for the common good in one small niche by applying science, or their version of it, with the aim of dispelling vaporous myths and questionable claims in the notoriously misty world of audio... a world that is built upon the premise of the possibility of creating illusions, after all. 

That said, I happen to like the illusions created by some speakers that ASR did not like.  It's fine they didn't like them, but I'm with most of you in that I didn't like the tone they took with me when I said so, that I like the speakers in spite of, or perhaps because of, what they deemed to be imperfections... and when they start veering away from science and start to tell me why I'm wrong and even silly or stupid to like something that I do, then they have stepped out of the scientific role and right into the subjective and thus betray the very ideals they purport to support.

That said, I do think they offer a good service, an alternative perspective to consider, as long as they stick to their measurements and leave it at that.

Kokakolia:

"iiWi Reviews on YouTube is one of the few places where those Chinese amps are reviewed subjectively. The reviewer got me very interested in the Sabaj A10A which seems to be working well with his KEF LS50 Meta. His reference amp is a Hegel H190 (which is a perfect match for the KEF). iiWi Reviews was very happy with the Sabaj A10A, stating that the amp disappeared and he was just enjoying the music."

A number of Chinese brands are of very high quality. Opera Consonance for example gets excellent reviews in German Hi Fi magazines. AM makes brilliant amplifiers and they are not cheap but they are heavily over engineered and weigh a lot. The sound quality is excellent and is among the best of all tube amps you can buy.

Where people get annoyed with ASR is when some say "I will not listen to this because it measures badly". Similarly when they claim that "All Dacs sound the same", I know this is a nonsense. I have been to dealers where different Dacs were used on the same system and the dealer said nothing about cost so the argument that if it is more expensive you think it sounds better is absolute rubbish.  There is often a big difference in the quality of sound. I dislike the sound of Dacs using ESS chips as I find many of them have a mid range glare which is not conducive to female voices. When I mentioned this I was informed I like distortion and I was thrown off the site and I am not the first or the last. I was told that I am not willing to be educated and learn.

It is also the arrogance in the site that is nauseating. "Stick around here and we will teach you". That together with the worship of Amir as if he is some sort of spiritual guru is enough to put off anyone.

I do wonder how ASR would deal with testing some Accuphase products-especially their CD players and DACs.Accuphase components do have a "house sound" .You get a sound that has a lot of timbre and harmonics and general tonal richness.And yet any Accuphase product I have seen measured also has textbook perfect measurements.Their CD/DACs really stand out from the crowd for having this character.Somebody described it as digital with soul.Esoteric is another high end Japanese company that is well regarded for its CD players and DACs and which also measure perfectly but  they sound very different to Accuphase and have no character at all.So how would ASR account for these sonic differences?My guess is they would just avoid addressing it.

 

A system put toghether from ASR favourites would be very very good. I got one. 

 

@gosta what you consider "very very good" is only your opinion and valid only when someone else's sonic tastes align with yours. I have their darling DAC the Topping D90SE I purchased out of curiosity, and it is merely competent to my ears in my system. Nothing like the $ unicorn they claim it to be, midfi at best.

You might get decent sound using their recommended products I suppose but seeing they pay no attention to things that can't be measured like image depth and musical involvement and rhythm and timing It would probably only be a fluke.

And like Kairosman says those products are probably more likely to sound half decent rather than very good.I have a fiend who bought one of those DACs and is of the same opinion.A 15 year old Musical Fidelity DAC and a 27 year old Sony CD player sound much better.

@gosta, so what is "very good"? What do you have?

 

@jtgofish 

"image depth and musical involvement and rhythm and timing"

Important of course - but in my world not the job of the dac.

Maybe what you call decent is the correct sound? 

Important of course - but in my world not the job of the dac.

You don't believe that DACs impact timing?

@gosta 

As long as you are happy with your system,  it doesn't matter how you got to where you are at.  The whole point is to enjoy the music.

@laoman

I use a dedicated mediaserver with Roon => Storm 16-channel processor =>

Storm 4 x 900 watt (8 ohm) Class d => Revel Ultima Salon 2 surround system + Velo 15DD+.

Dirac + Storm + Roon DSP.

ASR likes Storm and Salon 2 :-)

@gosta 

ASR likes Storm and Salon 2 :-)

 

Amir has these speakers, so everyone gets them!

Too many times Amir will test a piece of equipment that someone loved and they wind up selling it like sheep.

Just to buy what he recommends.

Are you listing to your music or just buying what your told?

 

 

@jtgofish 

But like any idealistic concept the enforcement can become toxic and counter-productive. Just like communism and religion.

 

Sadly that's all too often the case.

However, if anyone can resist the temptations of chasing wealth and fame, it's Amir.

He comes across as a man of principles.

Seemingly a rare thing nowadays.

 

@henry99 

Are you listing to your music or just buying what your told?

 

No doubt the Salon 2s are good speakers. It would even seem as if Revel themselves are unable to improve upon them.

However, that's a good question. 

Whether we like it or not, it's impossible to hear everything that's out there, and so we have to turn to third party opinions.

But exactly whose should we trust?

Personally I'd put forums like this ahead of any paid opinion. Old habits die hard but years of disappointment also have an effect.

Eventually.

 

However, that's a good question. 

Whether we like it or not, it's impossible to hear everything that's out there, and so we have to turn to third party opinions.

But exactly whose should we trust?

You are right about that. I fully understand you. This is why ASR wins. Right or wrong, it does no matter. It’s a fact. And they realized that, and they win. They make it a business. Lots of crap in the Internet, and people don’t know what you believe. The key is to get as much exposure as possible: own experience, audio shows, dealers, shops, friends, and internet people you know align with your tastes. If these are not possible for some reason, yes, your turn to …., whatever 

 

Demagogues tell people what they want to hear. I have a $ 4,000.00 amplifier and ASR tells me that it measures better than one of the hyped up $24,000.00 amplifiers. I like hearing that and automatically equate measures better to sounds better. This opinion cannot be subjective because it is proven by science and so I formulate all of these opinions about audio equipment without hearing any of them. So if the purpose behind buying audio equipment is to test them for frequency response, etc… without ever listening to them, then you have the quantitative evidence that you need for comparing measurements and that’s about it. 
So when I made that statement to my friend, he quickly countered with; ‘if you did a double blind listening comparison between your DAC and one of ASR’ cheaper recommended DAC’s, you wouldn’t be able to tell a difference.’ And my response was, ‘see you’ve already determined the results of a double blinded comparison without doing one.’

measuring a power cable that’s not plugged into anything and then claiming it has no impact, redlining amps and transducers way past manufacturer recommended spec and pointing out that they distort under these conditions, "listening" at active war zone levels in near field or on headphones, evaluating stereo imaging in mono, claiming nobody else with an AP analyzer is using theirs correctly, and so on. just another day in the life of the internet’s premier audio expert 😂

@gosta "A system put toghether from ASR favourites would be very very good. I got one." 

I believe you.

"Science" is published in peer reviewed journals. The guy at ASR is asking for money in every review and states upfront that he is a dealer and you can assume as much bias as you like. He can't even properly listen to components because he states proudly he doesn't like room treatments. It is worse than a joke because he has duped people into something like a cult of measurements.

Thank you Sgreg1, that is one of the biggest reasons I don't even like looking at some of the posts here. This has turned into more of a Trolling site that one for help and education. I find it ironic that people will purchase gear for $100s of thou and think that the great stuff they like bragging about never had any science or engineering behind it. None of that gear was made without carefull adherence to the science, calculations, comparitive measurments, and so much more before the FINAL ear ever heard a single note. Often we can't come up with a particular reasoning as to why something worked the way it did. At least on a moments notice, but that is what the GOTCHA crowd depends on.

Always follow the Money... right into Amir's pocket.

@ticat  FACT!

In a recent discussion there was a comment about the Coincidence 300B Frankenstein MkII. I dug around and found this study that was VERY detailed and yet does it cover every aspect that can be calculated, NEVER!

COINCIDENT FRANKENSTEIN 300B SET AMPLIFIER (high-endaudio.com)
But one thing I wanted to extract was about one particular capacitor. It was a .47 uf Teflon Foil film cap. Now do they measure the same? for most aspects they are identical, but most people know that different manufacturers make their products slightly different and the items that we measure are not even part of the consideration. Like what is the gap on the layers of films? What is the length of the film? There are so many factors that make one just slightly different to another. I can’t tell you haw many times I have played with different caps in my speaker crossovers achieving different results and sometimes a lesser expensive one does something more desirable. On the opposite end, often choosing an elite name like say, Morel over a Solen, well not all Morels are created equal. For a fact there are dozens of different grades of Morel caps of the exact same value, and one might fit the bill very well and another totally creates a trashy sound. It depends on the purpose, the design, the expected outcome... and yes often just plain outright COST effectiveness. Also you need to ascertain how a particular component compliments another. Sometimes one more expensive device might have a slight advantage due to something as simple as the reluctance of the binding post, or a .001 uf difference in capacitance, or the type of architecture of the device. We all know it isn't the most advantageous thing to do by putting Digital components with Valve components. You can't just say because of Ohms or watts or $k something is going to be the best choice and something else I seldom see discussed beyond speaker wires is, How long was a combination of components burned in together before it was given its final sanctification. And don't leave out room treatments.

@esarhaddon How would a purchaser know the amount of measurement and testing that went into an audio component? There may be some designers who volunteer that information to the public domain but most do not for a variety of reasons, like not wanting their work to be pirated. And those customers who want to evaluate an amp or a DAC, etc... base their decisions on the sound and the visual aesthetics. Designers have to use testing and measurements to build their products but scientific data isn't what they're selling.

Still don't understand how ASR can claim to be an audio equipment reviewer without actually listening to the audio product being reviewed. 

That is because ASR is an equal opportunity employer and employs deaf reviewers.

They are planning to expand to objective reviews of cars which will allow them to employ blind test drivers.That way people can be sure that all cars have been reviewed under double blind test standards and labels or looks cannot create bias.It will include a witches hat course to test handling and traffic lights to test stopping.

@goofyfoot
lets look at your comment in detail. “How would a purchaser know…”
That is really simple, there is this thing called the World Wide Web. I don’t want to sound like I am trolling you, but You asked the question. There is tons of information available on the web for anyone who cares how he spends $100k. For some that might not be a problem and that person is likely going to listen to his pal Joe tell him how he should spend his money. Now that isn’t always a bad thing. If you have shared experiences with a particular person and know what they like and you have similar likes that is good information, but not all have this type of familiarity. O the other hand EVERY manufacturer puts out some sort of fact list on what their equipment does, then after that you start your research.

I know that there is a big push on buying a car on your cell phone never having driven it, but how does that work when you finally get to drive that piece of junk that the previous owner put cork in the transmission to quiet it?

Then I go to a store to TRY to get hands on idea of how a particular system works but that is getting to be impossible as you don’t know what types of accessories are included. How long they have been burnt in together. What kind of JUNK the sales person is expecting you to listen to. I recently went shopping at one of the better and OLDEST stores in Denver and the sales person had NO WEAY of playing the sample disks I took in with me. He couldn’t even pull up the groups or selections on any of his streaming sources. He then asked me what I was using in my current system which I told him my background in designing speakers for over 40 years and that I had some GREAT, full sized towers. So what did he do? He connected some 4” B&Ws. I have nothing against B&Ws but they sounded like 4” bookshelf speakers PERIOD. He by the way lost that sale.  Another shop was able to play my disks but on an Xbox. For Crying out loud. They called themselves a HIGH end Audiophile store. This store I called ahead of time to arrange an APPOINTEMNT and explained EXACTLY what I wanted and expected. They said this sales person is their go to guy for Anthem. He sat me down to listen to some Junk SMALL towers connected and when it couldn’t produce one note below about 80 hz he proclaimed that he had recently taken off the Subs and never ran Diraclive again. Why should I take hours out of my day, drive across multiple counties, and even expect to listen to the JUNK that modern sales people, and I use that term VERY loosely, set up for me to listen to. There are virtually NO PROFESSIONALS anymore.

Now your next comment, “There may be some designers who volunteer that information to the public domain but most do not for a variety of reasons, like not wanting their work to be pirated. “
As stated before there are a multitude of places you can find information. Places like the Audiogon Forums and many more. And concerning piracy, well yes there are some trade secrets but some people actually have a screwdriver and friends who have used their screwdriver and taken the lid off their BLACK BOX to see what is on the inside. Also much of the time all you have to do is look a the products sold like say the idiots at BOSE who have Never had an original idea EVER. Everything they have made is either publically available designs that they have at Best made slight mods too, or hopefully improvements to, and of course the designs that they have outright pirated from others designers. Some examples are the huge variety of slanted and angled speakers that they did not originate but only went off the deep end trying to find something that might work. The Noise canceling headphones which came after MANY years of Aeronautical experimentation on noise canceling tech they created for the Airline industry. And then the Bose boom box with the folded horn design what I believe either JBL or Altec Lansing created the first successful folded horns.

Finally your comment, “Designers have to use testing and measurements to build their products but scientific data isn't what they're selling.” To some extent yo are correct. The final test comes down to personal taste and hearing a product. But as mentioned above how do you go about that? Also some of the best companies use their engineering designs as a MOJOR selling point. I don’t have to go more than about 15 miles from home to visit ‘PS Audio’ of Boulder, CO where they will WOW any learned or beginner with their advanced tech and design, should you desire. They will go into details that most people never knew existed or cared to know about.
 

 So the bottom line is do you care how your money is spent, do you even know what music is? You might not like my Jazz and I might not like head banger tracks. It’s an OPINION. Are you willing to even investigate what you want? How well do your friends opinions and tastes inter into your decisions on products you purchase?

@esarhaddon I thought we were talking about the measurements recorded by ASR.  No, those test results are done on that website because they are not available in the public domain. That's the whole premise for the website.  Specifications and reviews from What HIFI, Stereophile, etc.. are given but the reviews are primarily done by listening. And by the way, your old friend Joe is the one who did the Stereophile review.

Anyone, are there examples where a cable maker, amp maker, etc.. has posted on the internet or anywhere else, all of the testing that was involved while designing their equipment? If that is the case, then I can see where ASR could compare those results with their own testing and essentially refute the information provided by the manufacturer. In general, I have not seen the testing results involved in building equipment while reading reviews. I've seen specifications and listening reviews/comparisons on 6 Moons, What HIFI and Stereophile but nothing more.

Anyone, are there examples where a cable maker, amp maker, etc.. has posted on the internet or anywhere else, all of the testing that was involved while designing their equipment?

Yes. Plenty of them, obviously not all. I am starting to think your web browser only “points” you to a certain website. For some reason. Or your Google machine is broken / defective 😂. Which is pretty normal. Most people only read stuff that aligns with what they believe in, and ignore reading everything else.

Specifications and reviews from What HIFI, Stereophile, etc.. are given but the reviews are primarily done by listening.

Hmmmmm…. Every single Stereophile review has a very detailed section on measurements only. From J. Atkinson. Again, see above, the point I previously made

@thyname

Most people only read stuff that aligns with what they believe in, and ignore reading everything else.

 

You might believe that but you are most likely being manipulated.

There are many unscrupulous people on the internet who will try to do that to you.

I tend to use Firefox browser and Duckduckgo search with an indispensable adblocker of course.

When I look at the amount of cookies and trackers that are still following me I remind myself to use the incognito tab more often

 

As for the determined evils of Google, don’t get me started.

--------

8 Reasons Why Google is Evil

https://thebosh.com/10-reasons-why-google-is-evil/

 

You might believe that but you are most likely being manipulated.

Not sure how this statement fits with what I said. Relevance? I was talking about one of the behavioral/ cognitive tendencies we humans have, confirmation bias: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

If you are immune to that, or any cognitive dissonance, then…. what can I say, kudos to you.

As for being manipulated by the internet, social media, and the big tech, well, again, kudos to you for being immune to that.

This is my last post on this thread. I learned a few days ago from my friend, screenshots of every single post of mine in this thread were sent to ASR. Along with a printout of my LinkedIn page, real persona, photo, current employment, work history, the whole nine yards of my private info. And I know who sent it. It did not surprise me. So be careful out there, so many deranged people out there this can get personal, real life struggle, not just a hobby discussion, or heated argument

That is one sick, twisted individual who went and did that. Used to be that kind of crap was done in political circles but audio circles? Must be of the same mindset cohabitating both worlds. Again, sick and twisted individual. It’s a shame that some demented bozo just can’t tolerate a differing point of view.

It might be of benefit to A’gon members if you really know who it is to report it to Admin to get that person a permanent ban and to the members here so they can shun and avoid them.

All the best,
Nonoise

 

It might be of benefit to A’gon members if you really know who it is to report it to Admin to get that person a permanent ban and to the members here so they can shun and avoid them.

He is banned from here. About 16 times total 😂. I knew he knew my real name 12 usernames ago, he called me out then. When he was “AtDavid”.

Name he used in communications to ASR, and Facebook groups (he is in all FB audio groups) is Cin Dyment. Which I suspect it is also…. you guessed it: fake.

Below is a list of the usernames he had used here (that I know of, possibly more). Funny one of them is “cindyment” 😂. Or maybe not so funny 

 

—————

theaudiomaniac 

 

theaudioamp

 

deludedaudiophile

 

thynamesinnervoice

 

cindyment

 

snratio

 

yesiamjohn

 

sugabooger

 

dletch2

 

audio2design

 

dannad

 

roberttdid 

 

roberttcan 

 

heaudio123

 

audiozenology

 

atdavid

@thyname Yes, I am wrong, Stereophile does show measurements. I probably looked at them but haven’t in a while, now I just read the reviews. I do believe there to be value in measurements however, I’d be surprised if someone were to evaluate sonic characteristics based on measurements alone. The reviews themselves are based on listening, as with other publications.
 

I’m sorry you were targeted by an Audiogon member. That is reprehensible. As the Audiogon forum has grown in membership, there’s been an increase in bitter divisiveness among its posters. The Gramophone magazine forum was eradicated because of vitriolic attacks. I hope Audiogon doesn’t share the same fate. 

There are also audio reviewers who won’t take comments on their Youtube and personal audio sites for the same reason: insane, vitriolic attacks, most likely by the same members here if not of those of the same mindset. One reviewer even stopped reviewing for some time due to the animosity he received, only to come back, not accepting any form of contact.

There are some truly sick people out there and some would like to harm you, so be careful who you share personal information with.

All the best,
Nonoise

There are 246 posts on my forum and I would say that 95% share similar attitudes towards ASR and additional criteria to evaluate audio equipment.  I have also become more mindful in my posts from 5 or 15 years ago.  I did make one negative comment at the beginning of this forum but a Audiogon overseer (above the moderator) thought it didn't have to be deleted.  I read Audiogon forums more than several others on a weekly basis.  I also lend my personal and friends personal experiences using equipment and tweaks.  

doxxing somebody over their opinions about stereo equipment is one of the saddest things i've ever heard. unreal

"Miscreants"

 

Ouch

@mikepowellaudio
 As far as your four questions about how precieved things like Soundstage are measured? I guess you don't like or have any room in your life for Diraclive! Which by the way seems to do a pretty dang good job at not only measuring room accoustics, but also Width, Depth, Soundstage and so much more. THis is not saying that I agreed or dissagree with ASR. I wouldn't know one of their people if he fell from the 4th story in front of me. I just think that many of the comments here are as assignine as what ASR is said to quote. The lack of technical knowlege of these people astounds me.