Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

Perhaps this link is something all people who posted on this site should look at,
 

"With all the qualified people that participate in ASR, and accept the results, it is arrogance on your unqualified part to be sniping about his methods"

Normally I do not answer trolls, however.

1) Failure to understand Klippel measurements

2) Poor testing methodology - eg the tests conducted on the Chord M Scaler

3) Failure to read user manuals about tolerances before engaging in testing

4) Testing cables for interference when they are not plugged in to anything

5) Not checking if the samples sent are "cherry picked"

6) A refusal to take responsibility for recommendations when the product quality is not satisfactory eg Topping.

7) Conducting speaker listening tests based on 1 speaker only ( I do not care what he says about the validity of this, as this is nonsense)

8) Reliance on Sinad rather than use industry standard "THD" and "S/N ratio when this an old and arguably inefficient method of measurement.

9) Listening at ridiculously high volumes eg on the Focal Clear headphones at 115 db. Are you serious??

10) The farcical review of HiFiMan Ananda headphones where he was simply way off beam.

Do you want more, because there is plenty more. By the way

Our final word to those that yap should be to quote Jorge of Burgos:

Pedas per os tuum.

@gosta, so what is "very good"? What do you have?

Snapsc: "ASR points out shoddy construction and safety concerns that you don’t see anywhere else. "

No they do not! Topping has had some real reliability issues. These were pointed out by some members of ASR. Amit refused to accept any responsibility for this at all and said he just measures the, So people have bought a "great measuring" dac or amp that sounds average and that quickly breaks down. Wonderful!

@mattw73

"ASR is mainly an engineering forum in my eyes, discussions of build quality and measurements." Herein lies one problem, Matt. Amir does not look at build quality in terms of longevity. If you look at ASR over the last few weeks you will note that a number of Topping purchasers are complaining about the build quality. Amir has washed his hands of this whole business and has come up with all sorts of mealy mouthed excuses. A reviewer needs to look at all aspects of a product.

I do not care what he reads or does not read. However anyone who is thinking about purchasing equipment based on an ASR recommendation should really beware.

The best is to ignore them and hope that enough people see through the cult like behaviour.

Kokakolia:

"iiWi Reviews on YouTube is one of the few places where those Chinese amps are reviewed subjectively. The reviewer got me very interested in the Sabaj A10A which seems to be working well with his KEF LS50 Meta. His reference amp is a Hegel H190 (which is a perfect match for the KEF). iiWi Reviews was very happy with the Sabaj A10A, stating that the amp disappeared and he was just enjoying the music."

A number of Chinese brands are of very high quality. Opera Consonance for example gets excellent reviews in German Hi Fi magazines. AM makes brilliant amplifiers and they are not cheap but they are heavily over engineered and weigh a lot. The sound quality is excellent and is among the best of all tube amps you can buy.

Where people get annoyed with ASR is when some say "I will not listen to this because it measures badly". Similarly when they claim that "All Dacs sound the same", I know this is a nonsense. I have been to dealers where different Dacs were used on the same system and the dealer said nothing about cost so the argument that if it is more expensive you think it sounds better is absolute rubbish.  There is often a big difference in the quality of sound. I dislike the sound of Dacs using ESS chips as I find many of them have a mid range glare which is not conducive to female voices. When I mentioned this I was informed I like distortion and I was thrown off the site and I am not the first or the last. I was told that I am not willing to be educated and learn.

It is also the arrogance in the site that is nauseating. "Stick around here and we will teach you". That together with the worship of Amir as if he is some sort of spiritual guru is enough to put off anyone.

@esarhaddon

Is it "cancel culture" that I was thrown off ASR for asking whether a tested piece of equipment was listened to and whether it sounded good?

"

noske: quoted

@juanmanuelfangioii Critical thinking and listening are skills. Amir has neither of these?

You have made an unsubstantiated accusation. Prove it beyond reasonable doubt for all on Audiogon to bookmark. For the record."

For the record.... Testing a Leema Acoustics Dac. He plugged it into a 120 volt main and nothing happened - no output. It took him a half hour to work out it needed 230 volts. This is the man whose measurements some trust. Does that handle the critical thinking part?

"It is not uncommon for people who are American to forget that much of the rest of the world operates on variants of 240V (220, 230) and 50 Hz."
As someone who purports to "review" equipment, you have to be pretty stupid to make this mistake. This is the same guy who tried to measure the interference to a  cable without having it plugged into anything. Nice try though, Noske.

quiet:

"Odds are they will have issues. They seemed to have a SPDIF issue, was resolved. Not many other issues. Not defending them, but you are just spouting off with nothing to back up your position."

It is amazing how few people can read or comprehend posts. I really fear for the state of literacy when I read posts like this.

Anyway it looks like we have an escapee from the asylum who joined here to attempt to refute the irrefutable.

" I expect you know nothing about the failure rates of almost any audio equipment."

So the "quiet one" seems to think a 39% failure rate is acceptable for the PA5 amp. Wow.Of course John Yang only appears when he can criticise another company's products.

You might be amused to read some of the comments of the cultists about this thread:

Noske I was prepared to cut you some slack but you have just proved that you are a fool.

Guys, please. This "quiet" troll has achieved his intention by turning a number of members of this forum against each other and creating bickering.

Let me post a couple of things and then that’s it. Someone above posted that ASR looks at shoddy workmanship, and I agree that is great. If people are shelling out big money or even moderate amounts then people deserve to know if something is built properly. There are some rumours however that the equipment that is sent to Amir is cherry picked and built to a higher standard that is commercially available.
It is when stupid comments are made that you don’t need to hear equipment, just look at its measurements to determine its quality. When cables are "tested" without being plugged in and when respected manufacturers are labelled charlatans.Then things become silly. Also there is no doubt that ASR has a cult mentality. If you want someone who knows measurements, look at Andrew Jones. There is a person who knows what he is talking about.

Secondly the term "Chi Fi" is not derogatory or racist. There are some Chinese manufacturers that are great. Opera Consonance is one. Another is AM that makes world class equipment - both tube amps and Dacs. I am not sure if Americans know about this brand. The designer is Fang, formerly from Stereo Knights who founded Audio Music. The equipment is awesome.Look at the AM 833S for example.

@amir_asr

Let me ask you this.

Have you purchased Topping equipment yourself of the shelf and compared the insides to what is sent to you for testing to ensure they are the same?

Why did you not speak up when 39% of the purchasers of the DS90 owners experienced problems - this of a Dac that you highly recommended? Should recommendations not take reliability into account as well?

Do you think it is reasonable that John Yang comes on your site to rubbish the products of other manufacturers, but runs away at the first sign of a problem.

If your site is not a cult, why have you thrown out members who have differing opinions to products and to measurement than you and your members? This site allows all opinions and views.

@Noske,

In my culture we are taught to be gentle to those people who are not completely normal as they cannot help themselves. Consequently I will no longer respond to you. I wish you well.

I find it interesting that Amir did not answer one of my questions. I wonder why?

It is obvious that Amir does not want to learn. This is a pity as his appreciation of music could really grow. There are many people here who are more qualified than he is. However never mind. Some people are just very stubborn and inflexible.

"But instead come here to complain, acting like you know more than whole of audio science". There are many people here who know far more than you. Also we do not come "here". YOU came "here".

"See how we behave on ASR?"

Yes, like absolute arrogant "miscreants", who think they have nothing to learn from others.Just like Amir is behaving here.

milpai "But how convenient to leave topics he has no idea about, (many), and only reply to those which are close to his heart." +2

"So much for you all being open and accepting of other folks....."
Have you been thrown off this site like a number of us were on yours? What a hypocrite.

@amir_asr

Ok

Have you compared the components of the equipment sent to you by Yang with actual off the shelf components?

Why do you not review reliability? There is a thread on ASR where 39%of Topping amp owners complain about problems. You disappeared and John Yang ran away.

Why do you allow Yang to come on your site and rubbish manufacturers and designers?

There are three to start off with that you ignored before."We have grown to one of the top audio sites in the world. " I won't comment on this but am chuckling to myself.

@crymeanaudioriver

"A lot of us like a good Cabernet, but some like it drier and some like it with a bit of residual sugar. If you tell me it is super dry like an Arizona desert in the summer, and Amir’s test equipment says no, it is quite sweet, with a specific number that represents sweeter than 50% of all Cabernets, who is right? (The correct answer is Amir)."

This comment is so wrong it is not funny and shows you know absolutely nothing about wine.  Ask an MW what they think about this if you do not believe me. If this comment is an indication of similar knowledge about audio equipment, then I suggest you either read, listen and learn a lot more or go back to ASR and stay there.

Of all the comments I have read in this thread, this by djones astounded me:

“This is wrong, as a measurement guy "better sound " is subjective and not anything I pay attention to. “

I thought I misinterpreted the comment, but then

No idea if it is better or worse? Seriously? This explains the reply I got on ASR when I asked “What does it sound like”. I was told that doesn’t matter because it measures perfectly. Well let us take one example. I listen to a lot of equipment and have done many comparisons together with friends, at shows and also in demonstrations by companies. My major complaint about a dac that ASR rates as the best measuring dec is that it sounds like crap. I stated that the mid range is shrill, particularly when dealing with female voices. I was categorically told that I was wrong. I am not wrong – for me it sounds shrill. I was thrown off the site for this.

I would not use this dac if it were given to me gratis. Fine, I accept that others may like it, however I do not. Interestingly only one of the 8 that was present at the comparison thought it was satisfactory. We did not know what the brand was at the time. Perhaps the fact that we are all interested in classical music was a deciding factor.

Another example is an amp that ASR wets themselves over as the best measuring amplifier of all time; it is actually quite good, especially for the price, but there are far better amplifiers for my taste.

Regarding Amir’s comments here. Frankly I find them offensive. He has come along with the attitude of "Let me educate you." I do not need him or anyone else to educate me on what I like and dislike. Nor to I need to be lectured that I do not understand the Science. There are many people far more experienced and qualified than Amir of whom I prefer to take note.

Good post chopandchange. You are probably accurate. I also think Amir has fled. He has closed the thread on ASR which was intended as an insulting rebuttal to this thread.
It is a pity he has gone. I was curious as to how he would answer the comment that his testing methodology on the Chord M scaler was faulted. He consigned a whole product to the dustbin based on faulty methodology.

@crymeanaudioriver 

"There is no doubt at all in my mind, that where this topic is concerned, Amir is far more knowledgeable and would be far more recognized as an expert by others with real expertise. "

I will ask you for a change. Can you objectively prove this comment? Please give me a list of audio engineers, designers and critics who support this view.
Dis you read Amir’s letter to Darko? Do you think this tone and these requests are acceptable as well as insulting Darko’s guest?
By the way, you have not even thanked me for going out of my way to provide information on wine sweetness for you.

I probably agree with you on Solti’s Ring rather than the Karajan version I own. I saw the Cherau Ring in Bayreuth as well as 3 or so other performances of the whole cycle while I was living in Europe.

It is obvious you know as much about wine as about audio. In other words as much as the man in the moon. Run back to asr and be a minion to your minion leader. "Amir is effectively in a position of authority". Authority of what? Arrogant rude horse manure? It is telling that you were not able to mention one audio identity who thinks your minion leader is worth paying any notice to. I am done talking to you and your ilk.

A couple of posters who argued the ASR view did so respectfully and presented interesting and thoughtful views, for example @prof and axo, others not so much. What annoyed me and I suspect some others is Amir’s attitude. Fine, he has a viewpoint, however he hectors and attempts to shout down others of opposing views.

A few of us have been thrown off his site. You saw it here where his attitude was that he has come to teach us the right path. He has a highly inflated opinion of himself and brooks no opposition to his dogmatism. He belittles others, for example his comments about Goldenear in his exchange with Darko. He does not need to do this as it just makes him look like a prat. He mostly does the same when his testing methodology is called into question. He has clearly made mistakes in the past but usually refuses to acknowledge these.

In the meantime let’s follow the advice of Herve Deletraz, " Listen first, then measure."

crymeanaudioriver

If that is really what you think then you are more unintelligent than I first imagined

. Go and tell your minion leader that behaving like a seagull is not appreciated. Flying in, squawking a lot, shitting over everything and flying out again. If this is the management style he displayed at MS, then God help us.

In the meantime you might like to tell him to clean up his act, stop insulting others, recognise that he has made mistakes in his testing methodology and exercise a little humility.

@prof

"This is the deep irony/hypocrisy that almost always arises in these threads.

For the most part people making the "ASR-type case" are trying to offer a reasoned case with civility.  The ad hominem and insults, like above, tends to come from the "anti-objective" side...who then go on to blame the "objectivists" for being the dogmatic thread-crappers."

Not really prof. You and a few others who push the ASR line are polite and engage in interesting conversation and banter. Quite a few others are rude and objectionable and behave like yapping dogs. Amir himself is one of these. Another one accuses posters from this site as lying but has produced no evidence or quotes to back this up, Another one appears to deny the existence of a thread on ASR itself showing that 39% of Topping amp purchasers have problems.

I don't think anyone here is weird enough to push the line that a magic wood from the Amazon jungles will give you that special sound. However many of us do take the line that dacs do sound different and that perhaps a wonderfully measuring dac  pushed by Amir does not sound that great. It is these areas which cause exasperation and friction - when the ASR community says you are crazy for spending $x on A when B measures far better and is a better product.

Also I think Amir's iron fisted approach of throwing out everyone who disagrees with him is pretty rude and shows the sort of person he is. I feel sorry for him as he appears to need confirmation from his members and brooks no debate.

Most here are happy to discuss and debate with reasonable minded people.

@prof:
" ’If I hear it, I am not wrong. No way! And you can’t bring ANY of your arguments or evidence that will change my mind!"

Here is the thing. A while ago I was looking around for a new DAC. I listened to about 8 and in no case was the cost of the DAC mentioned. I just sat in a chair and listened to the same music. One that I disregarded very quickly was the Topping. The mid range is shrill and fatiguing. When I mentioned this on ASR I was told I was wrong and thrown out. I heard what I heard.

I could not afford the DAC I liked best by quite a long way and ended up buying one that sounded/sounds excellent to me. Interestingly that DAC measures well in the minion’s list, but that had no bearing on my purchase. I also like others that did not measure well, and do have a fondness for the scorned R2R Dacs. Again I hear what I hear and am not about to spend money buying something because someone tells me it measures well. Plus I want something that lasts and is not going to break like the Topping because of poor quality control. (Funny that minion leader NEVER addressed that point!)

Interestingly, yesterday on FB one poster, (likely an escapee from ASR), posted that Amps that measure the same sound the same and that those with exceptional measurements are by far the best. There is one amp about which ASR members are wetting themselves at the moment as the best measuring Amp of all time. Yes it is ok. No I would not buy it as I find it boring. If your argument now is that I clearly like distortion, I have listened to the Mola Mola suite and think they are great. The same goes for the Kii3s and the D&Ds with their inbuilt amps and Dacs. They do sound excellent. Seriously? What a pile of horse manure

On another note, I do follow Erin’s page as well as a few others that rely quite a lot on measurements. None are as dogmatic as ASR and none of their followers as arrogant, rude and objectionable as Amir and many of the ASR minions.

Your post is nonsensical. I heard 8 Dacs. 1 sounded shrill in the MR, 7 did not. 2 others did not appeal. I quite liked 5.How cn you say I am wrong when I compared 8?

Alright - comparing the 8 I listened to the Topping was unlistenable for me with Callas' Casta Diva compared to the other 7. Happy now?. How can I imagine differences when I did not even know what the fricken Dac was? It was the last on the list by far. I have noticed that ESS Sabre chips are not to my liking.