Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

@crymeanaudioriver Note fellow Audiogon posters, this member signed up to annoy us on this forum, much like the lectures from Amir.  He is a regular on ASR.  Try to ignore him (unlike ASR where trying to ignore someone who is not a follower of all things Amir gets you defamed and booted).  

@djones Apparently, you believe that cables that measure the same sound the same.  That's ridiculous except on ASR.  That's like saying every amp that tests the same sounds the same via Julian Hirsch.  Not on this forum.  There are inadequate or no tests which allude to the differences in the effects on sound by different cables yet test the same.  They are also system dependent.   

Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing? | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum The first poster states his reasonable position and there are 187 pages denying any validity because he is a subjectivist rather than an objectivist.  Anything expensive or unusual is considered snake oil.   Here's the typical forum there: Extreme Snake Oil | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum with 68 pages and 1,534 posts in one year.

russ69 Absolutely agree-I enjoy music in a car if the music communicates with me. I don’t judge a system by its’ cost but by its value in reproducing the recording (as music, not just sound).

kokakolia That is exactly what happened to me. You nailed it. They are similar to a religion of believers who dismiss any one else having an alternative thought, or even an alternative device they don’t approve of. Fascist mob mentality. I brought up in an intelligent and well reasoned manner my equipment, tweaks that I rejected, cabling I use and how often I compared differences in them. Your list of what they hate, that’s what they automatically rejected.

Cleeds When I mentioned my 40 year history as an amateur recording engineer at Royce, Disney, Ford, etc. with 300 recordings, 1000 performances at those and other venues, they came up with when they had their first beer and that I am bragging. I only wanted to indicate my devotion to music and acoustics. It is apparent that they don’t listen to music and the music they listen to is so bereft of acoustic information that they couldn’t judge on their cheap equipment what it could sound like.

Jonwolfpell Atkinson gives me an idea if there are gross sonic errors (very high THD, speakers with wild frequency response and difficult loads versus phase angles, etc).

My primary listening system is comprised of exotic tube gear using subminature tubes (6 in pre-amp and 8 in phono) with 100,000 hour lifespan, fantastic audio qualities (short distances internally, no vibration) in a design that decouples the stepped resistor volume control from the signal. The Altec 1569 monoblocks (and my second system Dynaco 70) are voltage regulated, not ultralinear, pentode or triode. It is based on a very sophisticated version of Audio Research’s rudimentary voltage regulation found in their modern amps. Same with it’s bias circuit, Only the transformers remain on the Altecs. A pair of 3” X 7” storage caps reside on the Altecs with a combo of 6gu7 tubes, a 6SN7 and 6 6bg6 output tubes for 125 watts. This is an example of the care I took in obtaining part of my audio systems without spending an arm and a leg. However, I do have some high end equipment such as the Zesto Allesso SUT while preferring the inexpensive Dynavector 20X2 L on a highly modified SME IV/VPI TNT VI. I find that the Dynavector happens to work great on nearly my entire LP collection of 28,500 albums versus my former Benz Ruby 3, which I loved, but was great on many but not most of my collection.  I have tweaks in my system-analog sits on a Townshend Seismic Sink for example.

Audiogon forum has many posts concerning my custom built listening room which took precedence over the equipment in cost because once built, will never require adjustment and is permanent.

The comment concerning the actual cost of equipment is telling What could be in a $500 integrated amp? Most higher end gear have higher costs involved and sell for maybe 2X to 3X with a 40-60% mark-up at the retailer.

"Fancy" versus "cheap."  Not defined.  I only use "Fancy" power cords after testing a few dozen, while only a few "cheap" ones.  The cheap ones sound lousy in my high end system, even when it was a mid-fi system.   My fancy power cords are made by GroverHuffman.com.   They sell for about $750 and take 2 hours of labor to construct under a US Patent.  My friend's $500,000 hi end system used Pangea power cables and his system was way out of whack with weird frequency response and restricted dynamics.  He just put one of my cables in his power amp and noticed the huge difference.  He ended up replacing all 6 of his power cables.  He was an electrical engineer and though he had high end cabling for ICs and speaker wire, he thought power cables couldn't make a difference.   Was he wrong!   His speakers are YG Sonja 2.3s-high end. 

@61 falcon - I was kicked off for violating their dogma in less than 12 hours. The warning was that I said that I didn’t know I would be attacked within a minute of my first post concerning differences in cables. I tried it but found out there is no intelligent life among audiophile miscreants (not criminals as they feel that all high end manufactures of audio equipment are).

@td_dayton You are correct, I saw half the video and couldn’t tolerate the cheap/more expensive comparisons being the same. I admit I did not hear his final admonition concerning objective and subjective audiophile extremism.

@drewdawg999   100% agreement with you as well as @yoyoyaya   @henry53 That's what I'm complaining about ASR. 

@td_dayton No, the video did not anger me as it wasn't directed at me.   Having an opinion that there is no difference in sound quality between cheap and expensive gear makes no sense to me and is non-sense but Darko can believe whatever he wants to.

@mitch2 I never intimated that I was superior to the other posters on the forum, just that I have a great deal of experience recording at world reknown venues as well as performing there.  Everything I stated was taken out of context.  Every suggestion that there is more than one point of view was nullified.  Calling them miscreants is appropriate. 

Every person hears differently, prefers different music and each system/room requires synergy to extract the best sound. 

ASR has a religion and hates anyone who is not a believer.  Audiogon is sooooo superior despite some rancorous differing opinions.   What's Best in Audio,  Audiocircle and so many other sites permit differing opinions and one can learn from many posters.   Not much to learn from ASR posters.  

@thyname Similar situation with me and people with TDS and an intelligent conversation about social and political issues.  My father in law is an 88 year old conservative and never talks politics with his 89 year old girlfriend who only watches CNN for news.  During Covid/2020, they broke up half a dozen times.  He avoids the subject.  So do I.  Funny, half my audiophile friends are conservative and the other half are "liberal" Democrats (but not leftists).  

@orgillian197 Same here as I noted.  Between the ASR posters preferred music choices, state of their hearing and immutable belief in cheap, good measuring equipment, our hearing is quite different.  

I'm glad I began this forum topic.  I feel so much better knowing that Audiogon posters are typically sensible and articulate.   We can generally disagree about audio (except for a few who also believe that tweaks are snake oil) in a more respective manner.   Nearly everyone has a different audio system and different listening rooms.  

BINGO!

I read through and heard some of Erin's reviews and found them to be superbly informative in both objective and subjective factors.  His Dutch & Dutch 8c and Revel PerformaBe F226Be were his favorites and the latter, an inexpensive great speaker.  His Vandersteen 2 speaker evaluates it for it's time and inferiorities.  I only want him to evaluate higher end speakers.   It is unfortunate that his site is not Absolute Sound or Stereophile where the manufacturers are throwing samples at reviewers (or other on-line reviewers such as Positive Feedback, Enjoy the Music or SoundStageUltra for example).  I suspect that the Magico, WIlson, Rockport, YG, Von Schweikert, Magnapan, etc. would measure well but I'd like his report instead of John Atkinson's and his subjective opinion(s).  

You are correct. Audioholics speaker reviews by Feinstein are excellent and include moderate priced high end products. He ended up with my second system speaker, the newest version of the Legacy Signature SE.

The subjective/listening component of equipment valuation is 100% necessary.  Use of measurements only is limited to what it is that is measured.   Since there are no "scientific" measurements for many sonic/music factors, measurements are only a starting point in evaluation. 

To those of us who vehemently believe that cables can determine sound quality of a system as does a speaker, beyond their use as "tone controls," there are no scientific measurements which delineate why they sound a certain way.  They are also system dependent.  Quality of manufacture is perhaps, one of the strongest measurable components of a cable.  I am a believer yet I cannot "prove" why my cabling sounds so good in my system.   I've tried my cables in multiple systems, sometimes they are just as great (especially on more modern and high end systems) and sometimes they don't perform as well as expected (on friends mid-fi but good equipment).  

Speakers are much easier to scientifically measure than cabling at this point.

Another reason not to trust anything ASR states as fact or as the best.

Yes, and mostly on cheap audio gear.  

I am not one who goes for the hype.  I test our tweaks before buying them.  As to my equipment, I have custom built 22 year old amps, pre-amp and phono pre-amp.  My speakers are 28 years old.  My modified SME IV is 33 years old.  My VPI TNT VI is 16 years old.  Yet I still purchased a new SUT last year, Zesto Allesso and a new digital cable, SR Atmosphere Euphoria.  So, I have a higher end system as an audiophile but am not into changing equipment without a significant improvement.  

As to flat frequency speaker response, I think there is a problem with that statement.  One needs a neutral speaker to start with.  The better and best speakers have off axis results in a room which tend to boost bass and roll off highs.  Reviews of high end speakers show this.   Speakers are not heard both on axis in pairs but in a central location in a room.  I am not explaining this sufficiently accurately but the gist is that listeners receive a sound like the Fletcher-Munson curve and not a truly linear, flat frequency response.  "We are not equally sensitive to sounds of all frequencies so perceived loudness of a tone in fact depends on frequency as well as intensity. Two sounds can have the same physical sound pressure levels but if they are of different frequencies, they are often perceived as having different loudness."  

Certainly, every listener has a preference and mostly different preferences for the sound they prefer.  That's another reason why there are so many choices in audio equipment.  Equipment though, should maintain consistent, neutral character unless the designer wants a colored, less faithful to the recording/mastering engineer reproduction.  That's the purpose of neutrality.

My preference for a reviewer is J. Gordon Holt.  The equipment he found to be musically pleasing is still musically pleasing.   I have noted that it was not Amir who wrote scathing opinions about my equipment and myself but the followers of Amir.

@mitch2 I agree.   Who knows if and when there will be test equipment for currently untestable aspects of sound?   For now, there are those parameters which can be and those which cannot be tested for.  Hence, listening (with various people having divergent preferences) is required to evaluate in a subjective manner the sound reproduction which is most pleasant to least pleasant.   

@kokakolia Agree and that's why I posted my experience.   

What is missing from ASR and discussions is used equipment.  When I was younger, I sought out highly rated used equipment, especially speakers.  I purchased Audionics, Acoustat X, 1+1 ad 2+2s, Martin Logan Monolith III, Legacy Focus and Signature IIIs, all at very low prices compared to their new equivalent.  Why not a Yamaha C4 or 50 preamp, or Yamaha CR 620 receiver?   Their equivalence is hard to match for $1000s.  

I noticed at ASR that Martin, a major contributor consistently posts his love for and upgrades in the Von Schweikert speaker line.  He purchases most of his equipment used and desires VS Ultra 11s as his ultimate speaker.  He listens to classical music. He also powers his VS VR5s using a Topping amp which is a strange combo.  He is an anomaly on ASR.  Matthooper had a video on amp stands improving sound versus nothing.  He was torn apart for wasting money and that his video was a sham of the difference.  Typical ASR forum. 

How about this statement by MattHooper that ended the discussion on The Truth About Vinyl Records:  Most of what people are doing on a forum like this has very little to do directly with the appreciation of music. Page upon page of discussion, and music rarely comes up. This place is devoted to The Gear.

How many musicians, or what percentage of music lovers, in the world concern themselves with SINAD ratings, or minute distortion levels in DACs or amps, or measuring cables, or learning all the technical information about electronics, speakers etc? Most "music lovers" don't need any of that stuff (much less The Most Accurate System Possible) in order to just listen to and enjoy music.

The person who has researched every nook and cranny about his hi-fi system, who has engaged in hours of careful set up, room measuring/digital EQ, getting subwoofer crossovers just right etc....that stuff is just another version of gear fetishism. It may be toward some goal, but most "music lovers" have no need for such gear fetishism to enjoy music. They would see it as having "very little to do with the ability to appreciate music."   

The Dutch and Dutch have superb measurements and apparently very pleasing sound.  They would not be my choice though.  And they are expensive.   I'd rather have the Revel 228 or my Legacy Signature IIIs for very much less.  

I agree with you, just as the listening room is very important so is our hearing capability.   I always used earplugs at loud live concerts and using noisy power tools.  I don't listen above 100db to anything.   I'm 66 and have been tested.   I can still hear 16Khz tones.   For everyone else, such as my wife who heard maybe 50 to 75 live rock concerts without hearing protection, she suffers from high frequency hearing loss (she says it hurts listening to such things as piccolos, flutes, coloratura sopranos).   Having clean ears is an obvious benefit. 

@mikepowellaudio @goofyfoot @vonhelmholtz  100% 

Arrogance=ASR members (generally).  I noted the two members who either end conversations or are ridiculed.  I was thrown out because I had unsupported statements, indicated my attachment to the live music performance community and their derision of anything more expensive than they could accept as better than cheap equivalent gear.  I opened my conversation on the snake oil forum after someone posted that the Audiodesk CD shaper was snake oil.  Ok, I mentioned that I had purchased one for $150 back in 2006 and tried it, found it made little difference compared to destatisizing my CD prior to play and can now sell it for $1000 or more.  Just for trying it, I was branded a lunatic who wastes money.  It went downhill from there.  Mentioning that I preferred the SR Atmosphere X Euphoria digital cable, well, that was too much, the ghouls came out.  

Note that the after the MattHooper post on amp stand isolation, the posters call him nuts and crazy.  I cannot view the site with Chrome anymore as I have been blocked so this information was made possible by viewing ASR on Edge.  

I don't intend to view ASR any longer as the members are generally mean, nasty and stupid/uneducated.  I'm glad I began this forum.  It's been a pleasure hearing from fellow audiophiles and music lovers, whatever your preference for sound reproduction and musical tastes.  

I want to mention that many of my direct to disc Japanese LPs from the 1970s have very explicit information on the recording chain including the monitors and a schematic of the mike setup/mixer.

@tonywinga  I've mentioned in other forums that I built listening rooms in my prior home in 1993 and spent $150,000 in a high end design room built from scratch in 2019 in my current home (my last).  Everyone who hears my system now revels in the music and sound despite not having ultra high end equipment.  I do have lower cost high end equipment to complement the room.  I suspect that high end Von Schweikert speakers would have eliminated the need for such a great listening room but building in bass traps in the walls based on an activated carbon filter system in the walls didn't hurt.  

There are 246 posts on my forum and I would say that 95% share similar attitudes towards ASR and additional criteria to evaluate audio equipment.  I have also become more mindful in my posts from 5 or 15 years ago.  I did make one negative comment at the beginning of this forum but a Audiogon overseer (above the moderator) thought it didn't have to be deleted.  I read Audiogon forums more than several others on a weekly basis.  I also lend my personal and friends personal experiences using equipment and tweaks.  

@esarhaddon I have not seen this extensive a critique of ASR and I’ve been an Audiogon member for more than a decade. I am relating my experience and note others including the @thyname’s theft of his personal information by an ASR member with numerous identities. What you refer to as nonsense and cancel culture is exactly what I am attempting to reverse. You are free to disagree but somehow I find your attitude opposite to mine. I DO NOT want anyone to put words in my mouth (that we can agree on) which is exactly what about two dozen ASR members did to my posts, render them opposite to what I intended and clearly stated.

Here is an ASR member's preferred music and equipment when responding to me two weeks ago (I saved it because I don't think I like any of his music choices except reggae).  

Via PC and APO EQ - Topping DX 3 Pro+ => Yamaha A-S 301 => Wharfedale 12.2 + REL 1003 (REW EQ) On me head: AKG K702, AKG K371, Fostex T20 RP, Sennheiser HD 650

Genres: hip-hop, reggae, ska, punk, alternative rock, trash metal, industrial, 90s techno, progressive techno, dnb, narco corridos, cumbia 

Are these music genres adequate to evaluate audio equipment?   I mentioned that jazz could be more appropriate (I didn't mention classical music or classic rock and pop).  I was scolded for mentioning it.

@td_dayton I agree. If that’s what makes the listener happy, only use his music preferences in choosing equipment.

The caveat is that the equipment may only be good for reproducing that music genre and not all others at their best.

Chinese equipment often has excellent design parameters but lacks in execution (I’m talking cheaper audio equipment, not high end). Use of cheaper parts is often used in Chinese CD players I’ve opened up. Sometimes they can be upgraded to higher quality sound just replacing power and filter caps and regulators.  US made Benchmark and Chinese Emotiva for instance uses 50¢ computer grade regulators in their DACs. Replacing them with $30-$50 audio regulators makes a world of difference.

@td_dayton My living room (auxiliary) system cost about $5,000 and does have excellent sound does not have tweaks other than a Synergistic Research power outlet.  No special wiring, breakers, room treatment, etc.  It is a good sounding room with padded front and rear walls, open to the foyer and to a bank of french doors on the sides.  The equipment includes a Legacy Signature III speakers, a highly modified Dynaco ST70 amp, a subminiature custom preamp, a Kyocera 310 CD player and custom cabling. 

For my two 75" TVs, I have a Yamaha CR620 receiver, custom cabling, custom power outlet, a Tripplite power box and MB Quart 980 speakers on one of them.  Just add source components and your in under $1000.

@kota1 Excellent analysis of Amir.

@rtorchia The comments made here include Amir’s lack of adequate testing. Damping at 1Khz or 20hz to 20khz, burn-in of equipment prior to testing (unless you don’t believe in that) which nearly all published reviewers talk about and do, etc. etc.

Your $95 USB digital cable could be crap. However, that does not translate that all $95 or $6000 USB cables don’t sound as good as your el cheapo cable. Plus, your system may not resolve musical information as well as those cables provide (or don’t provide). I’ve tested many cables in my systems and found that price is not a determinant of value or musical resolution. After testing half a dozen SPDIF RCA digital cables under $750, I tried a $1500 cable. Low and behold, it was superior in resolution, openness, dynamic contrasts, etc. compared to the less expensive cable. My higher end system easily provided the comparison.

The cable I previously used cost $200 and was an excellent first effort by a cable manufacturer. His other cabling is superb at a very reasonable ($400-$750) price. This time, someone else made a vastly superior cable (Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Euphoria). When I wrote this at ASR, I was pummeled with hatred and vile responses. Because it was considered snake oil. Then the personal attacks began.

I didn’t even mention tube equipment. There is NO reason tube equipment cannot measure well. However, achieving solid state results in the micro distortion levels of .001%, yes they may not be capable to obtain those numbers. Who cares? It’s about the sonic results, not a lab test. My voltage regulated 125 watt tube monoblocks are coasting in powering my 7 driver (3-12" woofers) floorstanders because they are relatively efficient yet dive down to 2.8 ohm bass impedance with a few sharp phase angles.

John Atkinson has pointed out speaker measurements in his reviews that are particularly helpful in understanding how difficult it is to drive very low impedances with very sharp phase angles, with wild frequency responses. I happen to not prefer that speaker brand although they are very popular in England.

@quiet is in opposition to Audiogon as I was to ASR. Definitely an ASR advocate member. Our members have the facts about Amir/ASR and his dealer relationship to his site and possibly to his testing results.

I own custom made tube equipment which has point to point wiring. The manufacturer has spent 40+ years in honing his soldering technique. I have proudly owned his equipment for nearly a quarter century. It would cost me maybe $50K to $100K to equal it or surpass it. ASR derides that it is tube and boutique manufactured. The ASR members who responded to me hate and despise me until I was thrown off. I didn’t realize how narrow was their scope of acceptance.

Here at Audiogon, @quiet can voice his opinion without posters casting negative aspersions on his character or person. We disagree with his statements presented as facts. However, he is a troll based on his recent Audiogon status and adamant disregard for alternative facts.

I didn't know Amir previously worked for Harmon Kardon.  Maybe that has influenced his preference for Revel speakers?   Well personal integrity is something I do find a problem with considering his retail sales interest in promoting products he measures well while chastising so many other products he has never heard, especially anything he considers too expensive and snake oil.  

I don't like the @juanmanuelfangioii and @noske verbal attacks on each other.  I see points of each.  Chi-fi is both derogatory and a commonly used term.   CCP manufactured products currently provide a broad range of audio products from really cheap to excellent in quality.   My qualm with Chinese made audio are the parts used are generally not of audio quality but of electronic/computer grade.  Designs are often excellent.  I have heard many Chinese made audio equipment and have found some very good products at very competitive prices.  I rather purchase excellent quality used non CCP made audio gear than the typical CCP gear at the same new prices.  Many top audio manufacturers now design in Western countries and have Chinese build the products. 

@laoman Yes, you reiterated my reason for creating this forum. My wife said i shouldn’t have called @quiiet a troll, but it there some other word for someone who signs up to Audiogon and denounces the rest of us? Now there is a 5 page 95 replies to ASRs Audiogon thread critical of ASR. They’re so stupid that they don’t recognize the person (me) who got banned after reading this forum. I really can’t be nicer to them. I note that the two ASR members who wrote about vibration isolation for amps and Von Schwiekert speakers did not chime in. Some respectful and logical ASR members there.

Your comment about @noske is appropriate. He started character assassination of @jerryg123  Now after @kota1   Not Nice!   Apparently has his own character problems wherein he is obsessed with demeaning others to assert his superiority.

sam_adams of ASR finally figured it out it was me.  Of course he took what I posted there out of context.   Shaving CDs, tried it and don't use it.  Paid $150, now selling above $1000.  Destat CDs, every time.   Synergistic Research cables-I never said they had magical properties but ASR members think that the company is committing fraud on the public and Ted Denney has committed a crime and should be imprisoned.   

And tmtmoh states that someone on this forum said that $500 and $1000 speakers sound the same (NOT).   That we believe in audio myths.   How many times did I post that measurements are important and can reveal a significant amount of the performance of equipment?   Yet, this counter forum states that we at Audiogon don't believe in measurements.   Ha Ha.  I'm getting a little thrill at poking fun at the miscreants of ASR (they hate that word-sorry).  Plus, they don't read all of this forum, just a few posts. 

@tonywinga  Amir_asr has the promise of uncovering bogus gear but falls short in terms of objectivity and fairness.  Fairness in terms of accepting that people can hear more than that can be measured.  Fairness in being able to counter a conclusion or debate it without a character assignation attack.  

Yes!!!  This is the premise of my forum.   Amir has no more credibility for his "reviews" or his ASR site than any other and is particularly distasteful to a contrary opinion, factual or not.  Character assassination attacks can get one a deleted post or even revoke a forum on Audiogon.

@thyname Thank you for your concern. I haven’t spent much time on this forum and my metal well-being isn’t being threatened. I am a very stable 66 year old music lover. I’ve been a member since 2001.

However, your warning that ASR militia can be possibly dangerous, does that mean physically violent? That means that this bear (ASR) is a radical leftist or rightist group who political affiliation is measurement audiophilia uber alles? Wow!

Now I remember that one member had claimed in another ASR forum that he wanted to go next door and burn his neighbor.   I assumed that burning one's neighbor is a violent act.   He is a well known member.

I also just noticed that someone just signed up to audiogon posting as amir_asr. Could that be the owner of ASR? That is scary!

Okay Amir, obviously you are trying to compare the finite with the infinite.  Plumbing equipment can be tested for their intended purchase, absolutely, just as aviation equipment must be tested and retested and hopefully not modified due to in flight failures.  So your plumbing analogy is wrong and made to sound stupid as a comparison.

Sound and music are infinite.  Hence, even the most exacting computer modeling of the most expensive concert halls results in failures.   The Elbphilharmonie in Germany is that $850 million hall.  The truth is that shoebox configured halls that seat under 2,000 people sound best and used zero computer modeling from the 19th and 20th centuries.  

I want audiophiles to use common sense and logic by learning to listen to sound and music, not just use measurements as their guide.   

I have friends with $500k to $1M audio systems.   I wouldn't own their systems.  They are pleased with them (one I now enjoy listening to).  However, the $1M audio system owner is constantly changing equipment because he is unsatisfied with it.  There are parts of their high end systems that I like.  The $1M system owner dumped $68,000 in High Fidelity cables and purchased GroverHuffman cabling for about $4,000.   After hearing the difference of course.

The $500K system owner chose to change the 6H30 tubes on his Audio Research SP 28 to 6N6 (6H6) tubes.  The result was fantastic.  He was also an electrical engineer and thought power cables were all the same despite his higher end ICs , digital and speaker cables.  He replaced all six of his Pangea power cables with GroverHuffman power cables after just lending him one power cable for his amp.  Since we live a few doors apart and enjoy a wide range of music, we visit each other and can now enjoy music together (but not prior to his major 2 changes in 2022).  

This is not an advertisement for GroverHuffman cables.  Just, one must listen to alternative equipment in one's own home to make a qualified decision, like an A/B test at a Harman Kardan factory (which is about 5 miles from me).    

@amir_asr Either you are or are not the owner of ASR. Either way, my conclusion is based on listening results after measurement (if it can be measured-the CD trimmer can measure some characteristics prior to and post trimming by listening to the CD). Since I do not rely on measurements only, I (and all of my many music loving friends) use my listening skills to determine if audio equipment sounds more or less to my liking. Measurements can be very deceiving both in what is and what is not measured as well as the potential synergy with other equipment and listening room.

The best test of audio equipment is to place it in the room and with the equipment it is to be used with. Aside from that, measurements and physical inspection of audio equipment can provide a basis for comparison and evaluation (such as will it more or less likely to fail in use). It goes without comment that different power ratings of amps and bass capabilities of speakers vary by design and parts quality which can result in lower or higher cost to manufacture.  Unfortunately, just as with so many other products (non-audio) on the market, you don't always receive what one pays for.  There are many shoddy expensive goods in many product categories.  That does not mean everything deemed "too" expensive is bad.  

ASR "militia" cannot differentiate the difference between biographical summary of one’s music expertise versus self-aggrandizement I am no more important than any other audiophile; however, music experience as an amateur recording engineer in major orchestral halls of well over 250 recordings and for the Erich Zeisl (brother in law of Schoenberg) centenary collection of 11 CDs for Vienna, UCLA and USC establish some credentials that my opinion in how vocal, chamber and orchestral music can (not should) sound is evident. I do not have a "golden ear." I just have a lifetime of experience performing and recording/mastering music.

When I conclude that each individual should not rely on measurements only, I am asserting that each piece of equipment should be tested for it’s musical value (not economic) in a specific room with specific equipment. ASR members laugh at anything outside of their sphere of experience and make derogatory remarks of someone’s character if they disagree with neutral statements concerning equipment or experience. If that is you Amir, owner of ASR, you know this to be true.

@amir_asr No, you don't use terms like snake oil and fraud, your minions do.  Just read today's new forum against Audiogon, audiophiles and expensive equipment Audiogon thread critical of ASR.   There's the proof in 100+ posts.  

Sure you're professional to a point.  Your testing isn't up to par for many products including speakers and DACs you have reviewed.   If you read all this forum's posts you would know of other review sites with much more extensive testing and testing parameters.  I want more data, not less.  

Your $20,000 DAC measured poorly.   Yet, there are many DACs that are expensive that measure quite well.   The sound differences are very significant.  Not all DACs are made or measure alike.  You got a bad one (design-wise).   Now one knows which one it is.   I guess we would find out by listening to it, huh?   

@invalid BINGO!!!

I was a commercial property appraiser (to be distinguished from residential) for 32 years, constructed apartment buildings and single family tract homes.  I chose/use higher quality materials in low income housing to prevent future repair expenses and the safety of my tenants.  I use higher quality all brass plumbing fixtures and fittings,  only schedule L US or Mexican manufactured copper plumbing and best quality fittings, Bradford-White water heaters, Wilkins water pressure regulators, etc. as an example.  Sure, Loews has cheaper plumbing items, but you get what you pay for-expect plumbing failures sooner (a few years) rather than in decades later (w.h. exceptions since they only last 6 years now).  

Okay Amir (if that's ASR's Amir), I also happen to be a beta tester of audio cables for a boutique manufacturer (GroverHuffman.com) for over two decades.  No, it is a subjective test after burning in cables and hearing other manufacturers high end/expensive cables (some, not all obviously).  No, we do not use controlled listening rooms or test equipment.  So, his business model is based on his electrical engineering experience of almost 60 years.  He is also successful with world wide distribution.  His problem is that he charges too little to satisfy many high end audio equipment owners as his cables lack the prestige of ownership (versus Nordost, Transparent, Siltech, Synergistic Research, Shunyata, etc).  I find fault with many "high end" equipment owners who base purchases on price rather than value (musical).   He has loaned cables for use at audio shows in high end systems where they just trounced the other known high end cables (High Fidelity cables being the absolute worst-luckily now defunct).   I've heard many cables which sound great in high end systems as well, with very high price tags (such as Masterbuilt cables used to demonstrate Von Schweikert speakers).  I've even chosen a Synergistic Research high end digital cable over his ($200-great value) but at substantially higher price after auditioning half a dozen.   

So, I don't have the hubris of being a golden eared reviewer of equipment or tweaks but I do have ample experience in listening/experiencing sound (and music) to be considered a critical listener.  I have friends who are superior to me in their critical listening capabilities who are well known (one a producer, another a producer/remastering engineer and lastly my electrical engineer friend who built every type of cable as a business and many types of tube equipment that measures closer to solid state than old tube sounding gear (he also owns a patent he wrote/submitted himself) on cable manufacturing.   

In other words, I trust what I hear more than I trust measurements.  Measurements are helpful, hearing is believing (and everyone hears differently).   

@milpai  Every night I get to listen to music for 2 hours prior to bedtime.  Yesterday, I listened with friends for 4 hours.   My main audio system is so addictive and I have 42,500 LPs/CD/78s that I look forward to listening whenever I have a chance.  I am retired from my profession and only work about 20 hours weekly as an investor/manager.  I also take care of my family until it's music listening time late at night.  

I had some time to see my forum posts today so I added rejoiners.  My other forums over the past 20+ years only received no or up to four replies.   I obviously hit a nerve and this forum is probably the most popular of September.   I am concerned that ASR may have a physically violent "militia" although it is more likely that they just have much free time and personal angst they have to relieve themselves by posting on ASR, so often and often negatively.  

@kota1 Yes, if smprather wants to impart some information of substance on audio equipment and music, please do.  Otherwise...  

@mitch2 I am not attempting to belittle him (assuming it's a male) but I do find it just as coincidental that Amir decided to defend himself, his site and his view on the audio industry here as a new member while we cannot do likewise on "his" site.   I certainly didn't want to start an argument when I joined ASR.  All I did was comment on my own experience with the CD trimmer (trial) and I will end up selling it for possibly a 10X profit.  ASR members could not appreciate a trial of equipment.   And Amir is "hiding" the results of a poorly designed/measured $20K DAC because the manufacturer was "kind" enough to lend it to him for testing.  Boy, that's benefiting audiophiles.   Not!  

Typical ASR post, this one today by Finfet on the Audiogon critical of ASR- "There are people still believing these BS but there are more who quitely (sic) sold their expensive gears, bought cheap stuff instead, regretted so much money and efforts are wasted and finally started listning (sic) to music, without leaving a voting message in any forum. The process is gradual, slow, but powerful. Manufacturer will take far more efforts to get the same amount of people to believe their BS simply because ASR exists. So I'd say trust in the influence of your activities and don't let naysayers get in the mood.

No proof, just conjecture.  Typical of ASR posters.  ASR members are self-important and think they can control manufacturers through their site.  

@smprather  You just joined Audiogon so that you could post to support Amir.  You've been an ASR member for 3 years and posted 3 times.  Wow!!! Impressive.  

@tonywinga Very impressive system.  The entire point of listening to music is to enjoy it and we do!  

No one responded to my comments concerning use of the most exacting computer modeling and measurements to construct the $850 million orchestral hall that is very inferior to 19th and 20th century smaller, shoebox designed halls with zero computer technology and very basic mathematics.  Great posts today from Agoners.  

@rtorchia @tonywinga @kota1 @kokakolia @td_dayton @laoman @djones51 and others on this forum. We are a more intellectual group, willing to converse in terms of possibilities in reproduction sound equipment that can be different yet sonically appeal to each of us, even in different ways. Measurements can find faults and limitations (as well as shoddy construction/materials) in equipment, they cannot determine how they will sound compared to one another or in an AUDIO SYSTEM and IN A ROOM (both of which vary more than the possibilities in chess.

Amir appears to be sincere and I don’t doubt that he is not exclusively in it for the money. That does not equate with the nonsensical diminution of non-ASR audiophiles who listen to different music, differently in different systems in different rooms.

Then there are personal choices that run counter to the major audio magazines. I used a Benz Ruby 3 for over a decade with an audio interface SUT with matching resistor impedance. I purchased a Zesto Allesso SUT which sounded slightly better using trans matching impedance. When I replaced the worn cartridge, I sought something that would play most of the 28,500 LPs and not just be outstanding on 20% of my collection. My friends were gaga over the Dynavector 20x2 H which I also heard great sound from. I purchased the L unit since I had the Zesto. At max gain and 100 ohms, it was a perfect match, including my modified SME IV arm. It doesn’t have the very wide separation of a $4K to $18K cartridge (many do) but the tonal balance is to my liking despite missing some resolution.

Here is the choice, resolution over tonal balance. I would not own a Lyra as I consider them tipped up in the highs (compare the measurements). My Dynavector has a flat frequency response. I like that. See-measurements can help determine something. But that was only a starting point. Without my Zesto SUT, I may not like the Dynavector low output as much in my system.

Well, ASR members are going wild over at ASR on their rebuttal forum with 165 posts.  One member lists this statement to prove his point: "The inability of some posters there to accept evidence-based science is stunning. It is a similar logical construct as saying “I’m not going to treat my cancer because the treatments make me feel worse. Your fancy MRIs, blood analyzers, and pathology tests can’t measure my feelings.”

"Then he lists uses of technology: If they DID say that, then they would at least behave in a consistent manner. But they DON'T behave in a consistent manner.
Realistically speaking, they will use the science-based medical technology. Ergo, they trust it.
They will trust the science-based technology that goes into their cars, hybrid or otherwise.
They will trust science-based aerodynamic technology when they travel by airplane.
They will trust the science-based digital technology that enables their refrigerators and stoves to operate correctly.
They will trust the digital technology that allows their TV to entertain them.
They will trust the technology-based science that warns them of hurricanes, tornadoes and storms that are broadcast on said TV.
They trust the science-based digital technology that allows them to use their cell phones.
Most of them even trust the science-based use and control of nuclear power, so they can enjoy the benefits of electricity."

His insane conclusion about audiophiles not subscribing to ASR dictum:
"They just reject evidence-based science when it come to audio.
Selective little buggers, aren't they? " 

Of course we all know (except ASR members/Amir) that we do not reject technology and science.   Again, analogies that are replete with incompatible comparisons of sound equipment with wine glasses, etc. that posters make and Amir indicates the fallacy of their thinking.  They cannot separate the innately technological for products that are consistent in form and factor from the ephemeral, like wine.   Sound reproduction is NOT finite.   The equipment obviously (to us) has sonic parameters which are not being tested.  If it were, then all equipment that measures the same would sound the same.  Hence, there are a great multitude of equipment choices as well as synergy aspects to consider which are also, not tested.  Imagine if there were a million choices in cancer treatments?  How about the long list of trusted technology information above?   No, there is a clear cut difference between sound reproduction and science only based information and products. 

@jtgofish @russ69 @cd318   YES!