Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

You just cannot win an argument with ASR. They always have the final word. They always claim to be objective. They always take a position of authority citing scientific papers written decades ago. ASR read Floyd Toole papers like the Bible. ASR worships Amir like Jesus. The striking ressemblance to religious fanatics is uncanny. 

Perhaps the issue with ASR isn't the obsession over measurements, but rather the internet mob mentality. With internet mob mentality there's only ONE way to get things done and a thousand "inferior" ways to accomplish the same thing. You're treated like a fool if you stray away from the "optimal" path. Creativity, innovation and curiosity are thrown in the trash to make room for strict guidelines which can never be challenged under any circumstances. 

I noticed this mob mentality with the Magic the Gathering community (a trading card game where you build your own deck of cards and challenge other players, the possibilities are infinite). Professional players would publish decklists and strategies on their website (usually Channel Fireball or TCG Player). Competitive players would blindly copy these decklists without any thought, card-for-card. This is how the "metagame" was formed. The metagame is basically a ranking of decks, you would typically have 3 powerful decks and dozens of "inferior" off-meta decks. So every weekly tournament felt like a complex game of "rock-paper-scissors". 

This metagame mentality applies to everything in life: mattresses, cars, speakers, tooth brushes, toilets, music, books, chairs etc...

It's up to you to carve your own path, or follow strict rankings and guidelines. Don't let other people's strong opinions get to you. 

@lanx0003 I was banned from ASR because I was contrarian and annoying to them. Amir is definitely a dictator on his own forum. His opinion is the law. 

@cleeds  I can't get over how ASR members judge equipment just by looking at it:

- Tube amplifiers = trash

- Fullrange drivers = trash

- Horns = trash

- REL = trash

- Klipsch = trash

- SMSL/Topping = great

- GENELEC/REVEL = no-brainer. Buy that, you'd be a moron otherwise. 

ASR are the biggest snobs out there, change my mind. 

@fleschler You mentioned briefly $500 amplifiers. This is where ASR can shine. But almost exclusively review SMSL/Sabaj/Aiyima/Topping amplifiers. Is this snobbery skewed towards China amps/dacs or a budget constraint? 

Outside of ASR reviewers focus on the typical NAD, Rotel, Marantz, Yamaha and Denon amps. But there is no obvious direct comparison between China chip-module amps and classic A/B amps. 

On some YouTube comment (not ASR) some user commented that the SMSL A300 was better than the Rotel A11 Tribute at 1/3 the cost. This is the hype I'm looking for coming from ASR.

It's interesting that major Hi-Fi brands are slowly embracing class D. Maybe ASR can do some good, despite being an angry mob of bullies. 

@sns You are talking about ASR in terms of absolutes with extreme metaphors.

I’ll play devil’s advocate for ASR for just your argument. [I still think that ASR are bullies and they banned me indefinitely]

A subjectivist with an untrained ear is like a wine sommelier without a nose.

I’ll name just one example: JAMO S803 or C93.

This speaker got very positive reviews from the speaker review community. Some members like Cheap Audio Man and Z reviews were hyping them up.

And then Erin’s Audio Corner published a long review with measurements showing that the JAMO S803 was possibly the "worst" speaker he ever reviewed. Erin criticized the honkey sound, the huge midrange dip and the hot treble. Erin also demonstrated the JAMO S803 shortcomings with voice recordings and EQ.

So the JAMO S803 are the farthest from natural/neutral sounding.

Fortunately, the S803 is an older model and fewer people are interested in purchasing a pair. But I’m very certain that speaker reviewers from YouTube got the cold sweats knowing that they hyped up a "bad" product.

So you could be a subjectivist or an objectivist. But you need a reference point (live music, graphs, playing an instrument etc...) to know what’s good and what’s bad.

A lot of reviewers on the web lacked the knowledge but everyone believed them because they were charismatic and sounded knowledgable.

And this is where ASR waves their objectivist flag proudly. No sugarcoating. Just measurements.

Now I’m gonna praise Erin for not being a turd despite relying on measurements. And you can tell that Erin goes back and forth between measurments and subjective listening. Erin trained his ear with measurements. But you can train your ear with real instruments and live music.

If you bring this conversation to ASR you’ll likely get a sensible answer from some members who simply want to:

- Single out bad speakers like JAMO S803

- Alternate between measurements and subjective listening

- Make an informed purchase

HOWEVER, mention Erin once and you’ll be treated like a dunce by ASR. Criticize ASR’s lack of interest in music, subjective listening and personal taste and you’ll probably be banned. ASR has the final word, just keep your mouth shut.

"Some people want to see where the state of the art is, and it is amazing how quiet and distortion free they can make equipment even at very moderate prices these days.

If anyone can show new measurements that reveal how the expensive equipment is really outperforming the moderately priced stuff I'm very open to it."

You put the finger on the problem with Hi-Fi: Big claims. Big Expectations. Uncertain Results. High costs. What are you even trying to accomplish throwing dollar dollar bills around? Sting isn't going to personally travel to your house and perform while you're eating your nightly bowl of spaghetti. 

As long as you have that mindset of "pursuing the best", you'll always be looking at the flaws first and spinning that hamster wheel continuously earning money and spending that on gear you don't need. 

With the ASR mindset, everything is put on a test bench. If that item doesn't score highly on the test bench, it is trash. Buy the top-rated product, then buy the next top-rated product the month after.  

I'm all for calling out BS whenever a manufacturer makes big claims, charges high prices and fails to deliver. 

But at the same time everything is becoming a contest and hype is inevitable.

So I'm utterly confused. Because ASR makes sense at the low end where most products are bad and some stand out. But then there's the obligatory hype of "this speaker punches way above its weight". So you buy that, and it sounds just like a cheap speaker. And you had this fancy pair of speakers in the living room this whole time. 

So my conclusion is: Perfection is the enemy of good (and your wallet). You could just invite your buddy over to smash some beers and listen to tunes. They don't give a flying care if "The treble is a little tinny on that specific track" or "The vocals are a bit nasal with THAT amp". 

@mitch2 ASR is a big deal. Your self-centered approach of "take the advice you want" just applies to you, and only you. 

Call me crazy, but the Pink Panther score is EVERYTHING. To a potential buyer, anything less than a Panther swinging a golf club is synonym with garbage, trash, horse manure, baby vomit...

Because buyers want to spend their hard-earned cash on the best value proposition, and be re-assured that they have. ASR is the authority with a science aesthetic. You can remove all critical thought and subjective preferences out of your mind, because ASR did the work for you. You can call this an authoritarian dictatorship, but to the clueless buyer with limited time/money this is a direct message from the angels in the sky. "Buy this and you will be happy".  

ASR has the advantage of using sciency graphs and very little words. This is what people want. They don't want to think, but they want to feel smart. 

An Audiogon member wouldn't really fall for it. But jump to other forums such as DealLabs and you'll immediately read "ASR is a good source for buying advice". I am paraphrasing.

Moreover, imagine selling/recommending gear to a random person. That random person will immediately consult ASR and if the gear doesn't get Amir's approval the deal is off (or you could lose all credibility for recommendations). It's that bad.  

@djones51  My issue with ASR is that they frame the discussion on their terms. ASR's testbench is the law, anything else is fairytales. This showcases an incredibly narrow way of thinking which will have notable consequences in the long-term:

- Homogenization of products. ASR makes it implicitly clear that there is only one way to build a speaker, a DAC or an amplifier. All other methods are inferior. Any deviation from neutral is viewed as a mortal sin. 

- Stifling innovation. Because unconventional approaches to Hi-fi are ridiculed. I dare you to say anything positive about a fullrange driver or tube amplifier on ASR! 

- Hype over 2 or 3 products at the expense of everything else. The SINAD ranking of amplifiers exemplifies that perfectly. 

So part of me is willing to accept the ASR mentality out of convenience. Find a good amp, a good DAC and a good speaker and mass produce it to the extreme to bring the cost down and eliminate the doubt during purchase. 

And another part of me is kinda sad because building a Hi-Fi system is deeply personal. There is no "one size fits all" approach. Every room is different. Every person is anatomically and psychologically different. I doubt that a speaker like the KEF LS50 will be a good fit for ALL people. 

@mattw73 "With ASR they are based on science, and if you don’t agree with how they do things or their findings you will have to prove it by their standards or you won’t change many minds."

Nicely said. But "science" in this context is a position of authority with very little self-criticism or curiosity. It is biased science. The research has already been published decades ago. Floyd Toole comes to mind. The conversation is framed in a way where you have to challenge the existing dogma (Floyd Toole et al...) with solid evidence. Practically nobody has the credentials to challenge that dogma and still be taken seriously. This is why ASR has the highest authority (in their minds) when it comes to audio. In other words "trust the science". 

And I know that I will probably be diverging the conversation towards the meaning of "science". And that is futile. I'm merely pointing the finger at the bias of ASR. Science, a.k.a. objectivity is not immune to bias. This is how you get under ASR's skin. 

And you can disagree with ASR, but you cannot express your disagreement with ASR on the ASR forums without risking a ban. You can disagree with ASR on other message boards. 

@mikepowellaudio The specs are definitely a distraction but I have to give credit to ASR for shining the light on those dirt cheap class D amps with Infineon and Texas Instruments amplifier chips. They sound fantastic to me. But I don't have the highest expectations and YMMV. 

So if you view ASR as a site which focuses on entry-level Hi-fi it definitely has a place.  

@jtgofish Sadly, I can't even say that ASR does a decent job at covering low budget amplifiers. ASR just does their usual benchmarking and you're lucky if some member does a comparison between an Infineon chip amp and a Texas Instruments chip amp for example. So you'll be even more confused about amps from reading the ASR forums. So intuitively you'll want to buy the latest offerings from SMSL, Topping or Sabaj. Which one is better? Nobody can give you a straight answer. Some of these amps approach 300€. And for that money you could buy a Cambridge Audio AXA25 (new). But ASR does a poor job at covering budget AB amplifiers. So nobody can tell you whether you should buy a cheap AB amp or class D chip amp. You only have a "SINAD" score to compare the amps. 

@laoman How so? In which category of products? 

I personally don't see how ASR is different from any review site. They're all equally problematic. I take personal offense with ASR for their lazily written reviews and mean community. 

My stance is that nothing beats experiencing the gear in person. Many reviewers lust over bright/revealing speakers and headphones. If that's not to your taste, you shall experience buyer's remorse sooner or later. 

And like I said before, ASR created some kind of fog in my head with amplifiers. ASR is heavily biased towards Topping/Sabaj/SMSL amplifiers at the expense of your usual A/B amplifiers. Maybe it's a price issue. Maybe ASR is so hung up on SINAD and price that budget A/B amplifiers out of their radar. 

@laoman iiWi Reviews on YouTube is one of the few places where those Chinese amps are reviewed subjectively. The reviewer got me very interested in the Sabaj A10A which seems to be working well with his KEF LS50 Meta. His reference amp is a Hegel H190 (which is a perfect match for the KEF). iiWi Reviews was very happy with the Sabaj A10A, stating that the amp disappeared and he was just enjoying the music.

However, iiWi Reviews is not the most experienced reviewer, but he's not as ridiculous as Z reviews or CheapAudioMan which hype everything up. 

Perhaps it's not crazy that a cheapo Infineon chip amp could rival more prestigious Hypex amps. That said, some YouTuber stated that the Bluesound Powernode (with Hypex amplification) didn't play well with the KEF LS50. He said that it sounded sterile. And it was an issue with slow transient response/current management which made the LS50 sound like car speakers. So he bought a Hegel H190 and never looked back. 

So... the confusion never ends. 

@goofyfoot ASR members commented already. There's not much of a debate. Like I said, ASR members are set in their ways and won't budge from their "trust the measurements/science" stance. 

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@jtgofish The running/jogging community absolutely sucks and they make ASR seem approachable.

The Magic: The Gathering community equally sucks. In this community you either follow the metagame described by the pros or scrub the floor.

"By introducing some generally accepted scientifically measured reference points we may finally be able to escape from this seemingly inescapable audio maze."

This summarizes ASR's mindset perfectly. And it circles back to the expression: "When holding a hammer, everything looks like nail". 

How can audio be a maze when there's no up, down, entry or exit? Audio is too abstract for our human brains, much like the universe. We elaborate theories with equations and graphs to try to understand it. However, this scientific framework locks you into a mindset which could turn you ignorant to other possibilities. 

"Still don't understand how ASR can claim to be an audio equipment reviewer without actually listening to the audio product being reviewed."

I have a clear explanation. Floyd Toole listened to many speakers decades ago and determined "the best parameters for speaker design". Therefore, everyone who follows Floyd Toole to the letter doesn't have to listen to speakers anymore. The burden of subjective listening is lifted. It's like forming a mould and comparing everything to that mould. If the reviewed object doesn't fit in the mould then throw it in the trash. Repeat. Do you understand how you save time, effort and "error"? 

"A system put toghether from ASR favourites would be very very good. I got one." 

If it's good and affordable, then who's complaining? 

Ultimately, ASR is a hype machine for affordable and mid-fi products. You'll be disappointed by the big performance claims and the objectivity claims. But if your expectations are low, you can expect a pleasant hi-fi system at affordable prices based on the recommendations. 

Just don't interect with ASR. They're very rude (unless you agree with them).

@goofyfoot It sounds like you have to make up your own mind and be your own person. Arguing with an ASR member about your subjective audio experience will drive you mad. It's a bit like talking about politics with an extremist. The conversation will always be framed by the extremist and you'll lose the thread. In essence, you know what you heard. 

@rtorchia Your personal experience is valuable. 

But tube amplifiers make sense if you're looking for a low damping factor. Modern amplifiers typically have a very high damping factor (ideal for a 2 or 3 way speakers with crossovers). But if you're using a fullrange driver you want a low damping factor for fuller bass. Tube amplifiers typically have a lower damping factor. 

My point is: ASR neglects equipment matching because they review products in isolation. 

I anticipate being called a moron by an ASR member for even mentioning fullrange drivers and tube amplifiers. 

@kota1 Your previous 4 posts would have earned you a permanent ban on ASR forums. I had a similar attitude to yours on the ASR forums earlier this year. I got permanently banned without warning. 

I found the ASR thread mentioning this Audiogon thread. As expected ASR view themselves as the gatekeepers of truth. And they view Audiogon as delusional snobs with expensive cables. I don't think that either side will change their stances and find compromises.

I question why Amir chose to interact with this thread. He could just stay quiet and preserve his moral high-ground on ASR. If anything, Amir is "lowering himself to Audiogon's level". He is god (on ASR forums). 

My dream is that someday ASR will bring an impressive and affordable system to Audiogon for people to enjoy. I just think that members on Audiogon want to be impressed with good sound, not schooled with "measurements and facts". Our ears cannot interpret an image of a graph and generate music that way. Ultimately, Audiogon members live in the physical realm. ASR members live in the theoretical realm. The two realms can converge on a venn diagram. Let's make that happen.

I mentionned this idea to ASR members on the ASR forum. I was basically laughed at. The ASR reference system is 100% theoretical. Picture target frequency response curves. Hey, I'm of the opinion that a pair of speakers is better than no speakers. But I'm delusional according to ASR. 

"My hi-fi system is so great, it's out of this world. No really, it doesn't exist. You cannot listen to it." 

@mitch2 I wholeheartedly agree with your statements.

But I insist that everyone has to agree and think the same on the ASR forums. 

You can learn from ASR members and their posts. True. 

@kota1 I believe that you're asking too much from Amir and ASR. Amir has a firm grip on ASR. Amir has strong convictions. Amir is intentionally deaf to opinions expressed which go against his convictions. And that's absolutely fine because Amir is master of the ASR forums. If you don't like ASR, join another forum. Or find another hobby. The world is your oyster, don't sabotage yourself trying to change Amir. 

Is the Hi-Fi hobby threatened because ASR is a one way street and Amir is the Lord of that street? Ridiculous. Find another street. 

@kota1 I'm on the same page. If you were in the same city as me I'd share a drink with you. And Amir as well.

"If I had to describe my place in this division, I would say I’m looking at a much bigger picture. I work with the end product, the sound that comes out of my loudspeakers. I’m working for a sound that pleases me. Mr. Amir is looking at the microscopic details, the grain of the wood, if you will, and I’m assembling an entire landscape. The tools I use are different than the tools he uses."

@russ69 

I am the same way. The sound which pleases me comes from a single fullrange driver mounted on a transmission line and powered by a tube amplifier. That's what I like. I listen to a lot of chill music and vocals are the most important quality for me. 

Try explaining that to ASR. You will be ridiculed. Tube amplifiers = trash. Fullrange drivers = trash. No experience or subjective listening necessary. It is trash. Shame on you. 

@kota1 Leave Amir alone LOL. He doesn't have to conform to you. His forum. His rules. Amir has many followers. Amir and his followers are not speaking kindly of us (specifically us two). 

There are so many kinder and more open-minded Hi-Fi reviewers who lean heavily measurements. I find that their reviews are better written than Amir's. More words. Complete sentences. Fewer syntax/grammar errors. If ASR was in for the money, they would write more qualitative reviews. It's just absurd to mention the money. I think that Amir is doing a labor of love and that he's genuinely trying to cut through the BS perpetuated by marketing. 

As a reader you can just take what you want from ASR. It's all free. You don't necessarily have to agree. That's my conclusion.