Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

If you even hint at how measurements can serve a useful purpose on this site, you will get the same mean, nasty, uneducated response.

This strikes me as a dubious claim. Feel free to prove me wrong by linking to examples of mean or nasty responses to a mild reference to the usefulness of measurements.

I am well aware of that isolated, idiotic responses can be found on many various threads, but the suggestion that there are some kind of systematic attempts to shame those who merely suggest that measurements can be useful does not ring true.

Important of course - but in my world not the job of the dac.

You don't believe that DACs impact timing?

First, a caveat: I do occasionally read reviews on ASR, and would argue that Amir does, at times, provide interesting and valuable insights.

Having gotten that out of the way, here are a couple of thoughts on the matter.

The painting of both ASR or Audiogon contributors with a broad brush is ridiculous. There are at least some perfectly reasonable members of both sites, who neither over-emphasize the importance of measurements, nor subjective experiences, at least to any extreme degree.

No component produces music in a vacuum, and none will sound the same with every possible permutation of associated components, and listening spaces. So even if an amplifier, to use one example, were to measure exceedingly well, could Amir, or any other rigid objectivist, describe its sound signature without listening to it? They might argue that it is "neutral", and that any "signature", or changes in sound, would be related to other components in the chain. But even if that were true, everyone understands that some amplifiers pair better with some speakers than others, and I doubt very much that such synergy could always be accurately predicted based on measurements alone.

I use the above example, and could produce others, to help illustrate that listening is required in order to fully assess the performance of components. Synergy cannot be measured, and listening spaces can radically change the sound produced even by components that measure exceptionally well.

It is, of course, possible to predict some likely characteristics of amps or speakers, based on measurements. But for the same reason that no designer of such components would ever put them into production without extensive listening sessions, it is simply not possible to know how a component will sound based on measurements alone. And that, I would argue, is the slippery slope that the extreme objectivists try to avoid at all costs.

??? Our aim is the same as yours. We want maximum enjoyment out of our music and want to optimize our gear to get there.

@amir_asr

This neatly encapsulates what some may perceive as your apparent myopia, and the associated problem that many have with ASR. If you believe that the above is truly a shared goal, then why on earth would you insist that better measuring components necessarily produce better sound?

Do you really imagine that those countless audiophiles who derive immense enjoyment from tube amplifiers, or Nelson Pass amps, would somehow find even greater enjoyment through the use of amps with lower distortion? Do you not understand that many, if not most of them, have spent decades optimizing their gear for precisely the purpose that you mention?

Pass, as you probably know, conducts listening tests on his new amp designs, the results of which have typically led him to intentionally introduce some distortion. In other words, a high percentage of listeners in those tests preferred the sound signature of the amps with some added distortion.

I think that part of the problem is that you, and many objectivists, conflate "best sound" and accuracy. Yes, you might reasonably argue that components with the least amount of distortion are more likely to reproduce recordings more accurately than those which introduce some distortion, but to then assume that such sound is necessarily "better" is a dubious leap.

@amir_asr

So no, when it comes to electronics, better measurements don’t "necessarily" translate into better sound. In acoustic measurements however, they are highly powerful in predicting preference. A colored speaker is simply liked less than one is that more true to the source. Again, not guaranteed but highly likely.

Interesting that you would use a colored speaker as an example, when my post focussed specifically on amplifiers. Do you have evidence supporting the claim that amps which measure better than tube (or Pass Labs) amps are preferred by a high percentage of audiophiles because they are more true to the source?

So if you want to be critical of what I say, first state my position correctly and failing that, quote me.

lol! Ok, here’s a quote from you that helps to support my original point:

Nelson Pass produces products with copious amounts of distortion. If he thinks that is pleasing, then he should develop critical listening skills so that he can hear the damage he is doing to source signal.

@amir_asr 

No one has done such side by side testing.  If anyone should do that, is Pass Labs given the huge premium they charge for their amplifiers. If they sound better, then it  should be trivial to perform controlled tests to show that.  Alas, not only do they not provide such a listening test, no do any other amplifier companies.  So much for "it is the sound that matters."  In really, it is the marketing that matters.

C'mon, Amir. As you know, Pass Labs amps have been very well received by audiophiles over decades now. They clearly have sound signatures that are pleasing to the ears of many listeners, and the suggestion that a meaningful percentage of those reactions would likely change if only those listeners were to A/B their amps with those that measure with less distortion is dubious, at best. And the same could be said of high-quality tube amplifiers.

To be clear, I don't doubt that some listeners would arrive at conclusions that would be at odds with their long-standing, stated preferences. But given the vast weight of the feedback from audiophiles who apparently prefer amps which measure with some distortion in the audible frequencies, it is, in my view, highly improbable that their choices are primarily due to marketing-related biases.

@axo1989

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I second your final sentence, in particular.