Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

Science brought us cellphones and high yield crops to feed the world.  Pseudoscience is politically charged technobabble that benefits the few.

Perhaps it's time to start coming up with some alternative versions of what the initials ASR stand for.

@twoleftears I have an ASR amp and phonostage, please don’t confuse those with Audio Science Review, I am not a zealot!

My very first tweak was about 1967 when I used a friends portable record player and taped a quarter to the stylus end of the tonearm. I was like, wow! I told my friend and he said that it didn’t make a difference. I wonder if ASR could do a measurement review of that?

@mattw73

"ASR is mainly an engineering forum in my eyes, discussions of build quality and measurements." Herein lies one problem, Matt. Amir does not look at build quality in terms of longevity. If you look at ASR over the last few weeks you will note that a number of Topping purchasers are complaining about the build quality. Amir has washed his hands of this whole business and has come up with all sorts of mealy mouthed excuses. A reviewer needs to look at all aspects of a product.

A $21,000 system can sound as good as a $165,000 system.

That's not the same as saying that any $21,000 system sounds as good as a $165,000 system.

More on this, ... later.

A $21,000 system can sound as good as a $165,000 system.

That's not the same as saying that any $21,000 system sounds as good as a $165,000 system.

A $200 system might sounds as good or better to someone as a $200,000 system. There is no accounting for taste. That's why comments like this:

Youtube features an idiot!  He states, with no equivocation,  that $5,000 and $10,000 speakers sound equally good and a $500 and $5,000 integrated amp sound equally good.  He is either deaf or a liar or both!

Are idiotic.

So charming. 

@laoman 

Amir does not look at build quality in terms of longevity.

Do you think he reads this forum? You might find a more appropriate audience at ASR for your concerns and suggestions about their policies.

I do not care what he reads or does not read. However anyone who is thinking about purchasing equipment based on an ASR recommendation should really beware.

@laoman How so? In which category of products? 

I personally don't see how ASR is different from any review site. They're all equally problematic. I take personal offense with ASR for their lazily written reviews and mean community. 

My stance is that nothing beats experiencing the gear in person. Many reviewers lust over bright/revealing speakers and headphones. If that's not to your taste, you shall experience buyer's remorse sooner or later. 

And like I said before, ASR created some kind of fog in my head with amplifiers. ASR is heavily biased towards Topping/Sabaj/SMSL amplifiers at the expense of your usual A/B amplifiers. Maybe it's a price issue. Maybe ASR is so hung up on SINAD and price that budget A/B amplifiers out of their radar. 

@laoman 
 

However anyone who is thinking about purchasing equipment based on an ASR recommendation should really beware.

It should go without saying that buying any audio equipment based on any third party recommendation, without first listening in one's room with one's equipment is fraught with problems and a crap shoot.

At least with ASR's objective review, you are shown if the item is properly engineered and constructed, performs as it should, and meets the claims of the manufacturer. I have seen time and time again reviews of products on ASR that fail at these basic fundamentals. In that regard, it serves a useful and legitimate purpose.

Perhaps it's time to start coming up with some alternative versions of what the initials ASR stand for.

Also-ran?

It should go without saying that buying any audio equipment based on any third party recommendation, without first listening in one’s room with one’s equipment is fraught with problems and a crap shoot.

@kuribo - BINGO!

Relying on any one source of information for purchasing choices, whether the manufacturer’s marketing babble, reported measurements, professional reviewers, or posts on forum sites like this may very well lead to disappointment, particularly without thoroughly listening to whatever is being purchased and preferably in one’s own system.

I fail to understand the level of anger and name-calling that results from the ASR site posting measurements and their personal opinions, while it is apparently ok for the "wisdom of the masses" on sites like this to encourage people to spend thousands of dollars on multi-colored fuses, expensive cables, incomprehensible tweaks, or digital add-ons and doodads that become obsolete about every two years as the manufacturer releases the next latest and greatest. Did someone kill a sacred cow?

This stuff is a common byproduct of free enterprise, which is still a better system than the alternative. You can learn to protect yourself (and your money) with knowledge, experience, and street savvy.

Good lord it's back. 

It’s about their malicious campaign against audiophiles in all audio social sites

I guess I have never noticed this, maybe because I do not know who "they" are.  Is Amir a poster here, or at Audio Asylum, or at What's Best Forum, or another site?  Is there an organized cadre of ASR members who purposely campaign against subjective evaluation of audio equipment?  I am not arguing, but I just haven't seen it outside of the typical back and forth that goes on here.

@tonywinga

'Science brought us cellphones and high yield crops to feed the world. Pseudoscience is politically charged technobabble that benefits the few.'

Once upon a time scientists toiled away in their spare time hoping to leave behind them more than a footnote in the annals of their chosen field.

Later on it was the Nobel prize and the prizemoney that went with it.

Or perhaps a tenureship at a prestigious university.

Nowadays, more often than not they find themselves toiling away to enable their employer to increase their profits. Truth and honesty are dangerous words which can lead to instant termination of contracts.

Yet not everyone is given to feeding the globalists unquenchable thirst for ever greater profits. There are still many fine people who work selflessly for the common good.

You only need to look online for free Open Source software for evidence of that. I would argue that sites like ASR fall into the same camp.

@mitch2

'I fail to understand the level of anger and name-calling that results from the ASR site posting measurements and their personal opinions, while it is apparently ok for the "wisdom of the masses" on sites like this to encourage people to spend thousands of dollars on multi-colored fuses, expensive cables, incomprehensible tweaks, or digital add-ons and doodads that become obsolete about every two years as the manufacturer releases the next latest and greatest.

Did someone kill a sacred cow?'

Maybe not a sacred cow, perhaps merely someone’s high yielding cash cow .

If sites like ASR continue to expose poorly engineered overpriced equipment then quite rightly it might affect sales.

Unfortunately, as we’ve recently seen all over the globe, not everyone has the consumers best interests at heart.

Thankfully, someone still does.

The real concern about ASR is that they are unlike any other audio forum on the planet in that they actively censor and shout down anybody who dares to express any experience based opinion.Most of us living in free and civilised countries have the right to have and express opinions guaranteed by law and yet here is an organisation that seeks to trample on and deny those fundamental rights and exclude people who might express or defend those rights.It is a bit like some fundamentalist religious sect in which a small group of gatekeepers and thought police seek to control the the thoughts and behaviour of its members.

This sort of conduct needs to be challenged  and condemned wherever it is encountered.And FFS it is only discussions about audio!A completely harmless and victimless interest.

@thyname

Basically everyone is simply hallucinating, whenever they share any experiences, without “proof”, or any measurements to back up their experiences.

I don't think they believe people's experiences are hallucinations. It seems pretty clear to me that they believe there is no place for subjective opinion when evaluating equipment on an objective basis as it is factually empty on an individual basis. One can never reach a logical, rational, supportable conclusion via 3rd party opinion. If one wants to share personal opinion, that is not the site for it.

There is perhaps something to be said for sticking to objectivity- here, in this very thread for example, you can see people called idiots, deaf, and liars simply because they have expressed a subjective opinion that that the op disagreed with, based on his own subjective opinion. Ironic, isn't it?

Disciples of the delusional cult leader Amir. 

Their site their rules is not correct .Not when they are denying people their legal and fundamental rights of opinion and expression.

For example I am an Australian citizen and under the laws of my country these rights are protected by law-

Right to freedom of opinion and expression

@jtgofish 

I don't believe ASR is under the jurisdiction of the Australian government.

Yes but they are under the jurisdiction of wherever they are located.USA I am guessing.Or maybe they a wing of the North Korean government.They certainly act like it.

Or maybe they a wing of the North Korean government.They certainly act like it.

😂. I thought about North Korea too, but I wouldn’t go that far. China more reasonably 😂

I would however respect their right to selectively choose what posts to allow in their site. It’s a private site. Not a public or governmental forum. They are allowed to censor. The problem lies elsewhere, as I laid it out above 

Just because something is privately owned does not mean it has the right to ignore/fail to comply with human rights that are protected by law.Far from it.

@jtgofish I think, just my opinion, ARS does not violate any human right law.I suspect, however, Amir does get paid by a lot of Chinese Fi company to promote their perfectly measure product ( Topping, SMSL …). There is no coincidence that Amir always talks highly about these Chi Fi. 

Older audiophiles may remember the Watts War of the 1970's, brands, especially newer brands of amplifiers, would sell products based upon the number of watts they were said to produce.  Most of them sounded like crap. Do measurements adequately predict how a product will sound, go listen for yourself.

The stupidity in that statement is like 30 years ago technics new SS amp with it’s much flatter measured response now made the Vacuum tube amplifier obsolete 

when comparing measurements. The Technics is now obsolete -Non existant

thevaccum tube distorts Even harmonics the older Solid state odd or more bright 

that being said With Mosfets, Fet, Bipolors they have some tube like characteristics .

@jtgofish banning someone from posting on your forum is not a human rights violation. lmao

For the wokesters it may be.

What's with the RW terminology?

There are all sorts of legal implications that apply to posts and actions that are in forums.Including the right to sue somebody for malicious damage.

I do not think that anybody would argue that there is not a right to remove individual posts that breach the user agreement- made on a case by case basis but the exclusion of all posts that are made based on opinion regardless of their content is the concern.Those sorts of freedoms have been hard won and are not to be dismissed lightly.

@viethluu 

Amir does get paid by a lot of Chinese Fi company to promote their perfectly measure product ( Topping, SMSL …). There is no coincidence that Amir always talks highly about these Chi Fi. 

If they measure perfectly, why wouldn't he "talk highly" about them???

@jtgofish it's a privately owned site. they can set whatever rules they want. if i had a site i could set a rule that says if you criticize phil collins "face value" album in any way whatsoever, you are permanently banned. and no amount of whining or "but my free speech" could change it. that's just how it goes. i'm not infringing on anyones right to criticize phil collins albums, you are perfectly free to do that anywhere else online, but on my site it's not gonna fly. this is all those dudes are doing. the mods there are just weenies who think they know everything, they aren't violating anybody's rights. this whole thread proves it

I wish we could get a few of those ASR zealots on this forum to engage in discourse but I doubt any would accept such an invitation.

@laoman iiWi Reviews on YouTube is one of the few places where those Chinese amps are reviewed subjectively. The reviewer got me very interested in the Sabaj A10A which seems to be working well with his KEF LS50 Meta. His reference amp is a Hegel H190 (which is a perfect match for the KEF). iiWi Reviews was very happy with the Sabaj A10A, stating that the amp disappeared and he was just enjoying the music.

However, iiWi Reviews is not the most experienced reviewer, but he's not as ridiculous as Z reviews or CheapAudioMan which hype everything up. 

Perhaps it's not crazy that a cheapo Infineon chip amp could rival more prestigious Hypex amps. That said, some YouTuber stated that the Bluesound Powernode (with Hypex amplification) didn't play well with the KEF LS50. He said that it sounded sterile. And it was an issue with slow transient response/current management which made the LS50 sound like car speakers. So he bought a Hegel H190 and never looked back. 

So... the confusion never ends. 

@goofyfoot ASR members commented already. There's not much of a debate. Like I said, ASR members are set in their ways and won't budge from their "trust the measurements/science" stance. 

​​​

Even the notion of a hobby based forum which does not allow opinions is outrageous.Can anybody else think of any other hobby type forum that would even contemplate such a thing? That might be fair enough in forums dealing with building bridges or prescribing medication but not in something used for home entertainment and music reproduction in the home and which exists to reproduce music .Which is a highly subjective thing.

@kokakolia All-right, then ASR members have it all figured out!

The best is to ignore them and hope that enough people see through the cult like behaviour.

So here’s the business model: Get a couple of measuring instruments like a FFT analyzer and a LCR meter. Start up a u-tube channel and pick a polarizing, controversial topic like expensive stereo gear. Make some simplistic measurements and declare this expensive component measures worse than its cheap counterparts or perhaps merely the same. This stirs up controversy and like guppies in a fish tank swarming to the fish food flakes he gets thousands of hits on his channel by us hobbyists because we can’t pass up a good fight. Cha-Ching! Brilliant!

If you even hint at how measurements can serve a useful purpose on this site, you will get the same mean, nasty, uneducated response.

This strikes me as a dubious claim. Feel free to prove me wrong by linking to examples of mean or nasty responses to a mild reference to the usefulness of measurements.

I am well aware of that isolated, idiotic responses can be found on many various threads, but the suggestion that there are some kind of systematic attempts to shame those who merely suggest that measurements can be useful does not ring true.

@jtgofish The running/jogging community absolutely sucks and they make ASR seem approachable.

The Magic: The Gathering community equally sucks. In this community you either follow the metagame described by the pros or scrub the floor.