Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

I agree with everything you have said  above Kokakolia.Except for the last sentence.

Rude is far too kind for some of the moderators there.Lets just say their favourite footwear would be jackboots.

ASR claims that all amps with the same frequency  response and output level matched and that  are load invariant will sound the same.

There probably is a degree of truth in that but  it ignores things like harmonic distortion types ,skew rate and resolution of stereo information.

You might get decent sound using their recommended products I suppose but seeing they pay no attention to things that can't be measured like image depth and musical involvement and rhythm and timing It would probably only be a fluke.

And like Kairosman says those products are probably more likely to sound half decent rather than very good.I have a fiend who bought one of those DACs and is of the same opinion.A 15 year old Musical Fidelity DAC and a 27 year old Sony CD player sound much better.

Not what I meant at all.What I meant was that some people would have bought that amp based on the ASR review without listening to it  [ASR didn't either] and if they had listened some of them probably would have made a different choice.So in that context yes they are naive objectivists for thinking that good measurements will automatically correlate with what sounds good to them.

If you want to really get under the skin of the ASR thought police bring up the years of Hi Fi Choice unsighted group test reviews which consistently described significant differences between the sound of components and ranked them accordingly.

Also mention that unsighted tests of speakers and listener preferences show that most people do not prefer a flat frequency response-far from it.And different types of listeners like novice,experienced,audiophile and trained listeners tend to have different preferences.They all prefer more bass and less treble but to varying degrees.So what is the point of worshipping products with ruler flat frequency responses?

Well you would not expect consistent unanimous results from blind listening tests involving different listeners  because different people have different sonic preferences.But there is value in what was found to be good on average as that product is most likely to sound good to most people-or at least most experienced listeners because that is what the listeners were[usually a mix of industry designer/engineers and audio journalists].

And Hi Fi Choice did use more than one listening session per product.And all products were level matched.The difference with other unsighted tests being that the room was familiar to the listeners  and I consider that would make a difference in terms of being able to hear more differences between components and something that should be included in any blind listening tests but isn't.

There is no lack of choice when it comes to active studio monitor type speakers which have very good measurements.They can be quite easily engineered with internal digital crossovers and EQ to measure flat.And they have probably never been more affordable.Will you like the sound of them for every day domestic use?Probably not but they are accurate.

Well ASR probably does a decent job of covering reasonable performing low budget components.But they seem to be a bit obsessed with the concept that new technology has to be best because it might measure well.Like the Purifu Class D amps for example.When a very affordable gainclone type chip amp which is not new technology probably sounds better.And also arguably some of the older Hypex Class D.

Yes true.

Yes but they are under the jurisdiction of wherever they are located.USA I am guessing.Or maybe they a wing of the North Korean government.They certainly act like it.

The real concern about ASR is that they are unlike any other audio forum on the planet in that they actively censor and shout down anybody who dares to express any experience based opinion.Most of us living in free and civilised countries have the right to have and express opinions guaranteed by law and yet here is an organisation that seeks to trample on and deny those fundamental rights and exclude people who might express or defend those rights.It is a bit like some fundamentalist religious sect in which a small group of gatekeepers and thought police seek to control the the thoughts and behaviour of its members.

This sort of conduct needs to be challenged  and condemned wherever it is encountered.And FFS it is only discussions about audio!A completely harmless and victimless interest.

Their site their rules is not correct .Not when they are denying people their legal and fundamental rights of opinion and expression.

For example I am an Australian citizen and under the laws of my country these rights are protected by law-

Right to freedom of opinion and expression

Just because something is privately owned does not mean it has the right to ignore/fail to comply with human rights that are protected by law.Far from it.

cd318,Indeed that might have been the point of ASR.And that is fine.The theory is fine.The idea is fine.But like any idealistic concept the enforcement can become toxic and counter-productive.Just like communism and religion.

There are all sorts of legal implications that apply to posts and actions that are in forums.Including the right to sue somebody for malicious damage.

I do not think that anybody would argue that there is not a right to remove individual posts that breach the user agreement- made on a case by case basis but the exclusion of all posts that are made based on opinion regardless of their content is the concern.Those sorts of freedoms have been hard won and are not to be dismissed lightly.

Even the notion of a hobby based forum which does not allow opinions is outrageous.Can anybody else think of any other hobby type forum that would even contemplate such a thing? That might be fair enough in forums dealing with building bridges or prescribing medication but not in something used for home entertainment and music reproduction in the home and which exists to reproduce music .Which is a highly subjective thing.

I do wonder how ASR would deal with testing some Accuphase products-especially their CD players and DACs.Accuphase components do have a "house sound" .You get a sound that has a lot of timbre and harmonics and general tonal richness.And yet any Accuphase product I have seen measured also has textbook perfect measurements.Their CD/DACs really stand out from the crowd for having this character.Somebody described it as digital with soul.Esoteric is another high end Japanese company that is well regarded for its CD players and DACs and which also measure perfectly but  they sound very different to Accuphase and have no character at all.So how would ASR account for these sonic differences?My guess is they would just avoid addressing it.

That is because ASR is an equal opportunity employer and employs deaf reviewers.

They are planning to expand to objective reviews of cars which will allow them to employ blind test drivers.That way people can be sure that all cars have been reviewed under double blind test standards and labels or looks cannot create bias.It will include a witches hat course to test handling and traffic lights to test stopping.

esarhaddon,Has it occurred to you that some people are more sensitive to timing and rhythm that others?That we do not all hear the same?Some people have very poor sense of rhythm.They are bad dancers.They are not the people you would want to play in the rhythm section in your band.Or be audio reviewers.Or perhaps ridicule others for whom such things are heard and are important.

I own many speakers but will always keep a pair of Gale 401 speakers because they excel at rhythm and timing.If you search the web for opinions and reviews of these classic speakers that facet of their sound is very frequently mentioned.They boogie.Or perhaps all the people who own and love them are suffering from some sort of mass delusion?

ASR reviewed the Benchmark AHB2 power amp and gave it a huge recommendation because it was the best measuring amp they had tested.

Chris Bryant in Hi Fi Critic also reviewed and measured it and although it measured very well gave it a very low rating for sound quality.He said-"For me,when variations in timing patterns or rhythmic drumming are encountered,the musical flow is compromised." and "but it failed to impress in terms of musical involvement,attaining an overall score of just 45 points’.

A lot people[naive objectivists]I guess] bought those amps based on the ASR review and if you follow posts about that amplifier in this forum and others you will see a lot of people saying they bought it but sold it later because it was extremely boring sounding.Some others say they like it but my take on that is they are probably listeners who do not hear timing and rhythm patterns very well so have not, nor may not ever ,become aware of what is not right about it.Even many who have moved on were probably not fully aware of the exact nature of what is wrong but knew something was not right.

This is where subjective reviews by experienced reviewers like Chris Bryant become invaluable and should be taken into consideration by any buyer.

If they can't convey the musicality of good musicians then they are coloured.The worst sort of coloured. And boring .That is certainly not how it is supposed to sound.I have owned amps and preamps that just sound like that.A First Watt F5 for example.Nelson Pass usually makes musically convincing amps but not that one.I have heard a lot worse though-like a Purifi Class D amp I borrowed recently.Which also measured really well.

Speakers change timing?  Or are you saying something else changes timing. Digital audio is accurate to a nanosecond, vinyl 10's of nanoseconds, phase in speakers uSeconds. Are you telling me that the pace and rhythm of the music is changed by speakers? You realize that is that logical?

Qiuet,Speakers certainly influence the way we hear timing.Especially multi ways where time alignment of the drivers is hard to get right.It sounds slightly out of time because it is.Some designers like Duntech went to a lot of  trouble with stepped baffles and crossover design to ensure  time alignment.Other speakers like Tannoy dual concentrics have the benefit of physical time alignment .Rise time and impulse response  measurements reflect this time alignment.A great many speakers have quite poor time alignment because the acoustic centres of the drivers are out of alignment.Add to that other factors like phase response anomalies due to reverse phase leakage from ports.

Quiet you said-"

"And proudly, because we all know that saying about opinions, everyone has one. They are pretty much worthless. ASR is quite happy to hear about listening tests, as long as they are only listening tests. It is not a very high bar. Perhaps for the people here it is too high a bar, but not for people that care about sound."

ASR is certainly not happy to hear about listening tests.I was permanently banned for daring to bring up the years of level matched unsighted group tests including listening and comprehensive measurements /reviews by panels of experienced listeners carried out by HiFi Choice magazine.Which is the largest data base of such informaiton available and which consistently reported significant differences between the sound of all classes of components and speakers and which showed a weak correlation between how things measured and how they sounded.So if you report anything that does not align with the pathetically small samples of blind tests ASR bases its narrative on including a quite ancient comparison of SS amps using a very odd speaker with a very abnormal impedance response you will be deleted.

Furthermore when the moderator/gatekeepers of this narrative disallow experience based opinions they have no idea of the level of expertise of the poster.They might be vastly experienced designers who have built highly successful businesses and be highly respected experts on how to make things that sound good.People like Nelson Pass and Herve Deletraz and FM Acoustics for example who have long held the opinion that a lot more than good measurements goes into creating good sound .These are amplifiers and preamps used by some of the world’s best composers and musicians.Not just some ’crazy deluded audiophiles"

The lack of respect and misplaced arrogance is mind boggling.But I guess a simplistic /black and white unsophisticated mindset goes hand in hand with an authoritarian mindset.

Amir,Thanks for coming here and responding in a level-headed manner.I do not agree with your approach to assessing audio equipment because I believe it is too narrow in its focus but I believe your intentions are good and your methodology is sound and professional.The idea is fine but like a lot of good ideas the enforcement becomes the problem.And that is the problem with ASR forum.There does seem to be a hardcore group of enforcers at ASR that seem to take delight in headkicking and kicking off anybody that questions the narrative.In my experience the worst of these are B.D.Woody,SIY and Jim Taylor.Naive objectivism has created a monster.Which is a shame.The topic deserves better.You deserve better.

Amir,The glass is more like the electricity which should be the neutral fundamental.A better analogy for the audio component is arguably the special roasted oak cask and the vintage process used to concentrate and enhance the base grape juice flavours.

But either perspective is fine depending on taste.Some people enjoy young unoaked wine and some don't.Most prefer something less natural but with a bit more sympathetic complexity.

ASR love to quote Floyd Toole and research done at Harman.Which is fine but the findings there have also shown that the average listener does not prefer a flat frequency response .Far from it.And different types of listeners prefer different frequency response curves and these are only averages anyway so do not properly reveal the extent of this variation.So there is substantial variation between different people and how they hear or listen and what they prefer and yet the hardcore objectivist tends to obsess about electronic components needing to have ruler flat frequency responses and also makes the assumption that everybody has a room that can reproduce a flat frequency response.And yet if you dare suggest that not everybody lives in an anechoic chamber you will be banned from commenting.It as if they want to construct and inhabit some sort of alternative reality based on theoretical parameters and totally ignore real world variables and personal differences.

I do wonder if a lot of them have spent too much time behind a computer screen absorbed in online alternative reality and are not comfortable with the foibles,complexity and diversity of the real world and real people.For them a theoretical construct is going to  be where they feel comfortable.

Amir what I meant by average is that there was no detail of the spread of listener preferences from which the type of listener average was calculated.That might have been quite an even and narrow bell curve or quite uneven and wide one.So it does not really show relative variability between individual listeners.It would also clarify why different people have different sonic preferences and for whom"accurate" might not be what they want at all.

Well power cables are an easy target.I have never heard any difference between them and I acquired some quite expensive ones that came as part of a complete system.That might because I do not live in a high density or industrial/commercial area I suppose.

How about a different perspective like this?Perhaps the last 50 years of amplifier  and speaker design has really just been a case of two wrongs trying to make a right .So what is the point of measuring things that are only a reflection of that-like load invariant amplifiers for example.

https://education.lenardaudio.com/en/12_amps_8.html

Fleschler,There are some regular posters on ASR who are quite patient and civil .However some are just arrogant and aggressive and intolerant of different perspectives and they also happen to be moderators.They are also all Americans.It did occur to me that might just be a sad reflection of how bipartisan and divided that society has become.I have American friends who have related how pervasive and toxic that "us and them' attitude has become and how glad they are to be out of it.It certainly comes as a bit of a shock to those that are not used to it.

What happened to the post about the cage full of squawking parrots?That almost compensated for the whole ASR experience!

Kota 1,Thanks for that youtube link.This is another one which discusses  similar issues in a very moderate and balanced way.