Let's see if I have this right, amir_asr has purely altruistic motives for reviewing and measuring equipment. He has no credentials that I have seen for test and measuring nor has he shown any type of equipment certification. If I am wrong, now is the time to show that. I'm calling nonsense on this. No one does something for nothing. Whether he is feeding his ego gaining notoriety through controversy or is making a good sum of cash, he has a motive. The fact that he himself admitted he would not report on a $20,000 DAC that he claims had a flaw seems to go against his very agenda. Are not all of his followers now at risk of spending their money on this flawed DAC? It would seem that his own moral standards have been compromised by accepting equipment from manufacturers to test at no cost. That is different from testing other peoples equipment for them that they own.
Amir_asr makes some generalizations about, "audiophiles" that is not correct.
1) He says that we audio hobbyists in general cannot hear the difference in sound of various gear. And he has test data to prove it. I call that nonsense.
The people in this hobby and on this forum can hear enough of a difference to be willing to invest their time and money into it. Many of the persons here benchmark their systems to live sound either/both outdoors and inside concert halls. Many of us play musical instruments and therefore look for recreating that live sound in our listening rooms. If generalizing that most stereo gear sounds the same albeit cables, DACs, speakers or amps across price points then musicians must be deluded to prefer a specific more expensive instrument over a more basic, cheaper alternative.
2) He seems to think that the people on this forum, with the exception of the trolls and flamers are naive and have too much money to spend on gear. I call that nonsense.
Most on this forum are well moneyed, motivated and successful people with a desire to reproduce music as accurately and enjoyably as possible. The idea that these type of people check their brains at the door and buy the most expensive, shiny noise making baubles they can afford is ludicrous. Most on these forums are skeptical and require verification of genuineness, value and reliability/customer support before buying.
The point of these forums is to help buyers beware. Plenty of accredited journals exist to review and assess the latest technology and offerings. Now and then a manufacturer comes along and tries to pull a fast one on the buying public. They don't last long. Enough people on these forums as well as the industry in general have the ability and influence to put a stop to shams.
Over the years I have seen a lot of "giant killer" companies come and go, or the ones that survive eventually improve and develop a reputation for their products. Reputation is everything in any business. Sure, many will always go for that promise of gold for the price of straw but those companies quickly run out of customers.
Amir_asr has the promise of uncovering bogus gear but falls short in terms of objectivity and fairness. Fairness in terms of accepting that people can hear more than that can be measured. Fairness in being able to counter a conclusion or debate it without a character assignation attack.
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Hey, Amir is back and still trying to prove a negative. Notice he continues to try to make his point with singular examples. In this case someone who owns an expensive stereo. Remember, Amir considers himself and anyone who has spent a lot of money on equipment an expert. He just can't get over other people hearing things he cannot.
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And you will forever remain in that state because that is what you want to believe. Imagine someone who is color blind arguing there is no such thing as a green light on traffic lights.
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What the hey? I just measured the resistance of my expensive new power cord with my $25 Ohm meter. I got the same reading- down to 3 decimal places when I measured the resistance of a $5 power cord. I just realized all power cords are the same. Wait a minute! I get the same reading if I short the two probes of my Ohm meter together. That must mean all power cords have zero resistance.
My point to this irony is that without understanding the capabilities of the test equipment we are using, having traceability for that equipment back to a standard, and using a defined test method that can be repeated by others (correlation) then the results have no meaning and certainly should not be published.
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Science brought us cellphones and high yield crops to feed the world. Pseudoscience is politically charged technobabble that benefits the few.
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So here’s the business model: Get a couple of measuring instruments like a FFT analyzer and a LCR meter. Start up a u-tube channel and pick a polarizing, controversial topic like expensive stereo gear. Make some simplistic measurements and declare this expensive component measures worse than its cheap counterparts or perhaps merely the same. This stirs up controversy and like guppies in a fish tank swarming to the fish food flakes he gets thousands of hits on his channel by us hobbyists because we can’t pass up a good fight. Cha-Ching! Brilliant!
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Most of the discussions here can be classified as persiflage. I've noticed that when things get technical the discussion quickly drops off but touchy feeling, "subjective" topics go on for quite a while. I'm ok with both types of discussions. They are fun. I find useful information on this site at times. I would not depend on this site for advice spending $$$ on components. Nor will I go by the advice of a salesman. I have to hear them for myself and be convinced the component is robust and reliable.
A story about a buddy of mine who retired some years back and went to work as a salesman for a national tire chain. He said that one day he gets a call from someone looking for tires for their new Corvette. The guy says he had a BMW M5 and hated it. The car practically drove itself he said. The Corvette is great, he says, it has to be driven. Some days later he got a call from someone wanting tires for their M5. They traded in their Corvette for the M5. They hated the Corvette. They loved the M5 because it practically drove itself.
Everybody likes what they like. Measurements matter to the designers and builders.
btw- I scour the tire data on the websites and the reviews before I buy. I buy tires too infrequently to have an informed opinion. I only know that I liked or disliked the tires that were on the car. So my behavior is inconsistent but it is difficult to try tires before you buy. In other words, sometimes we take our chances on a purchase and we will grasp at any information or data that we can find.
I'm always happy with the stereo gear I have until I hear something better...
Measurements? We don't need no stinkin' measurements.
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Story 1) I bought a VCR in 1982 for about $800. By the late 1980’s VCRs performed much better and were much cheaper. I saw a production video in the early 1990s of the making of VCRs and was surprised to see that the process was completely automated. Just a few people here and there monitoring the process and checking parts. VCR’s rose and fell in over about a 20 year period. Product development occurred at a furious pace through the 1980s. And then came the DVD. I don’t think too many people lamented the demise the VCR once DVD and blu-ray took over. VCRs really never had a chance to develop an esoteric market. (Tongue in cheek comment). But the VCR is a good example of how the product both improved and became more affordable. Stereo gear did the same starting in the 1960s with the integration of the transistor.
Story 2) I stumbled into a high end watch store one time in the late 1990s in Stuttgart, Germany. I had on my Omega Seamaster Professional and so I felt like I was a watch connoisseur of sorts. I got schooled that day. Every watch in this store was handmade. I don’t remember prices but I remember they were beyond the cost of a good car and more than most houses. The storekeeper looked at my watch with disdain and commented that it was mass produced. Europeans love their watches and you’d be amazed if you were aware of value of the time pieces many people have on their wrists in Europe.
My point is, VCR’s were a new technology at the time and product development was moving at a rapid pace until the VHS tape was replaced by a better medium in terms of performance and convenience. Automation and cost reduction were key to the increasing popularity and growth of the VCR. Mechanical watches, on the other hand are a mature technology having been around since the late 19th century- became mass produced for common availability and eventually replaced by the quartz movement but still persists as a collectable high end hobby. No one seems to debate the ridiculous prices of mechanical watches that can nowhere match the accuracy of even the cheapest quartz watch- except for my friends and family. Hifi fits into the latter category. For the most part speakers, amps, turntables and even DACs these days are mature technology. They can be had for anywhere from a few dollars to hundreds of thousands of dollars. Basically, whatever someone is willing to pay. It’s about art, culture and a personal achievement in building something satisfying. Like a good watch, or even artwork, hifi is a very personal thing.
I notice that some of the recent DACs and amplifiers made in China look very good on the inside. The circuit boards are neat and orderly. They even speak of the thoughtfulness of keeping analog and digital paths separate and other hifi practices. Notice that the components on these circuit boards are packed very tightly. These circuit boards were designed first for automated assembly and low production costs. "Audiophile" sound is secondary. Now take a look at some high end well known respected audiophile brands. The circuit boards are bigger and much less densely populated. This supposedly makes a difference in getting that special, magical sound. In most cases the boards must be populated by hand.
Another good example are tube amps or preamps with point to point wiring. They look like rats nests inside but the argument is that circuit boards can affect the sound. And in some cases these amps sound better than something that looks to be better built and organized on the inside.
Production costs can be significantly higher for products that have much more manual assembly. Is the hand made more expensive device worth the extra cost? That is for each of us to decide. Why let someone else make the decision for us on how we spend our money?
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We do not have to prove anything. Subjective is a personal appraisal based on our own senses and perception. He cannot measure what we can hear, and certainly not with the rinky-dink equipment that he is using. That has been proven- just not on his channel since it does not fit his agenda.
His channel is about controversy which brings him lots of hits to his channel which translates into income. That is what he is about.
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His channel is irrelevant. It has little to do with science. He satisfies the needs of a few followers who want to believe expensive hifi is a sham. In the same vein as flat earthers and people who don't believe men walked on the moon.
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How many people on this forum who drank the "Science" Kool Aid and were disappointed will it take for you to understand? 10,100? Most of the discussion on these forums here are subjective. What’s wrong with that? If I buy a new power cord, DAC, speaker or amp, I’m willing to share what I like and dislike about that component. I don’t want to get into a metallurgical or some other such discussion to defend my purchase. Now if someone were to tell me that the connectors tend to fall off of that brand of cable, I might find that useful information- provided they have evidence.
If you go to a movie, you might tell your friends that was a good movie or a bad movie. Do you get into objective, defensible suppositions about the cinema photography, or length of scenes, etc? Or if you say that movie was fast paced and had lots of action, do your friends expect you to quantify that and benchmark it against another movie? Probably not unless you are in film making school.
Why is it that I can watch Danny’s videos? He does measurements too. But since he has been in the business and designs and builds products, he knows something about of which he speaks. He can explain why and how he makes measurements and then does teardowns to help explain why a product should sound good or just average.
I research before I buy. Having been burned decades ago by the low cost, "giant killers" I stay with the more established reputable brands. Does that mean I always get the best component for my money? Perhaps not but Caveat Emptor applies today just as it did a couple of thousand years ago.
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Well, I'm reminded of the old computer maxim, "Garbage in garbage out". Just as true today apparently, as in 1957.
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Now you are just blowing smoke. Altruism doesn’t include character assassination of dissenters.
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Oh, and let me add this in defense of my irrational behavior regarding stereo playback reproduction. I played MJ's Thriller last night. It gave me goose bumps on both arms and the back of my neck. I have owned that vinyl record since 1983, or whichever year it came out. After 40 years of playing that record my stereo can still affect me so. If your stereo can give you goosebumps then you are there. Sit back and enjoy.
How do you measure that?
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I just have to say I love the sound of my stereo system. It has a black background with excellent imaging and a holographic sound stage with fast, punchy bass. But please take everything I say with a grain of salt because I use cable lifters, room treatments and expensive power cords. Oh, even worse, I have mechanically isolated all of my stereo components from any vibrations above 3 Hz. I'm completely irrational. I don't know what else to say. I have no defense. I'm a half step away from tube rolling- if only I could get some tubes.
Meanwhile, back to some music.
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Thank you kota1 for those kind words. I'm typing between songs. I just played Eminence Front, by The Who. Can't get enough of that song.
I'm getting old and have been retired for about 20 months now. I am so grateful to have the time and means to invest in my audio hobby. I enjoyed listening to music from college days through my career as a form of stress relief. Now it is more enjoyable than ever.
Was working high stress? Well, I tell people that when I was working I used to sleep like a baby. I would wake up during the night crying every 2 hours. Now I sleep through the night- except for when my shoulder hurts...
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There was a story in the early 1990s about GM hiring a former car thief to try to break into their new model car featuring the latest in anti-theft technology. GM engineers were so confident in their newest anti-theft deterrents that they put a large timer on stage and unrehearsed had this former car thief attempt to break in and steal the car in front of an audience of car dealers. The story goes that the former thief walked on stage with a sledgehammer and hit the front bumper. The airbag deployed and the doors immediately unlocked. The guy got in the car with a screwdriver and started the car. The large timer showed just a few seconds had elapsed. Yes, the engineers had egg on their face. Linear thinking has its advantages but also has limitations.
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The hobbyists and audiophiles on this forum comprise people that are both highly intelligent and highly motivated. Many have a background in music or audio or both. These are creative people that can think beyond linear A to B. This is the type of creativity that drives innovation and change. Discovery and ideas almost always come before understanding.
Now we have a guy with no credentials in either music or audio walking around with an ohmmeter claiming these people are deluding themselves. Of course that is a trigger point. Galileo was imprisoned by the Catholic Church for saying that the earth was round. The leaders of the day had to protect the public from this "deluded" man. They refused to accept other possibilities. Technology has changed the world but some people never change.
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Reminds me of the Commissioner of the United States Patent Office who in 1899 said the office should be closed soon because there was nothing left to invent.
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When I play a chorale piece on my stereo system the choir fills the front half of the room floor to ceiling. I can hear individual voices across the soundstage. It is not the ultimate in resolution- I have heard systems that can resolve each and every instrument in an orchestra spread out across the room. As I work on my system with both upgrades in gear and with tweaks, I find that the resolving power of the system improves. That chorale piece has evolved from a cloud of sound years ago to individual voices. Its amazing to hear. I have no idea how one would measure or quantify that property of the stereo objectively. I found not just upgrading preamps, amps, and cables improved resolution but isolation and room treatments as well reduce the noise and muddiness or blurring of sounds. Now I can measure the mechanical isolation of my stereo components with an accelerometer and FFT analyzer and I can see that they are isolated from vibrations above 3 Hz. This results in improved resolution and more detail in the music. In addition to those upgrades I also find tweaks to the digital streaming ethernet improves both sound and resolution. It would seem that could be measured but no one seems to be able to get past, "it is just 1’s and 0’s". There seems to be some 2’s and 3’s getting through. :)
It seems naive to just look only at distortion, frequency response or time domain properties. Live music outdoors is like a hemianechoic chamber, ie. no reflections. So the highs roll off very quickly. The same for a concert hall. Someone who likes that kind of music is not interested in strong bright highs. On the other hand, someone who likes to listen to live Jazz or Rock with electric instruments wants to hear the highs. Plus, the same speaker in a different room will sound different. Leave those types of measurements to the manufacturers. The boutique manufacturers voice their gear to satisfy the bulk of their clientele. Not every brand nor every model will be to everyone’s taste.
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Amir could have had a killer stereo for $200k.
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Amir said:
I tested a PS audio directstream DAC. It measured poorly in low frequencies. After a bunch of back and forth with claims you believe in, it turns out that for cost reasons they used low quality transformers that produced more distortion! Multi-thousand dollar DAC used low quality parts...
Don't be so naive. All manufacturers have price points. If you do not like the sound of their DAC, move on. Buy something that sounds better to you or tear them all apart until you find one built like you want it. Danny, a real audio and measurement guy tests and tears down speakers costing thousands of dollars and shows us the low cost parts inside. The speaker was built to have a certain sound and performance for its price point. It is not a gotcha game. It is the realities of business. Danny also designs upgrade kits for these speakers that one can buy if they are interested in improving the sound. Every piece of gear has room for improvement no matter the cost point.
Something more useful might be durability testing. HALT testing (Highly accelerated life testing) on gear to find the weak points and define the useful life of the gear would be interesting- but costly.
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I had a boss once decades ago that was obsessed with data. He just wanted to test and test. It didn't seem to go anywhere. He wanted more data and just could not finalize anything. Testing for the sake of testing is pointless. It has to mean something. Compare the data to listening tests or what? Measurements by themselves mean nothing. But to conclude something does not sound good because the measurements say it doesn't is circular reasoning. That is because the key ingredient to how it sounds is to listen to it. Measurements are a means to an end. How it sounds is the end- the final word on the subject.
Kind of like the old adage, " There comes a time in the life of any project when it is necessary to shoot the engineer and start production."
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That is because Danny listens to the products. He also understands and explains what the measurements mean and how it affects the sound. At least on the videos that I watched. And his upgrade kits make sense. Plenty of DIY'ers do the same things.
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I'll try to summarize- let's say an aviation enthusiast follows airplanes and can identify various aircraft by their sound. According to Amir, that is not possible. The person is deluding themselves because 1) A person cannot hear the minute differences in sound that the various types of aircraft make and 2) A person cannot remember the sounds various types of aircraft make.
He shows dubious charts taken out of context to further his argument but if you go back and read through his responses he contradicts himself several times. For example, he says listening to the equipment he tests is not necessary but later he states that he does listening tests- on certain items. Now he says listening tests are ineffective. This is all bad science. No wonder it gets us all in aflutter.
This comment by Amir regarding speaker upgrades: As to his upgrades making sense, they do most of the time from technical point of view. But not remotely on cost basis. He also detests EQ which can do the same thing for free.
This statement reveals a lot- him saying that EQ can replace putting better components in a speaker (btw- in an earlier post he criticized a manufacturer for using cheap parts in their DAC but cheap parts in a speaker makes no difference apperently) shows that Amir does not understand Audio nor can he hear music the way we do.
He cannot hear what we hear and that infuriates him. So he starts measuring gear to prove we cannot hear it either. He is in over his head. Owning a pile of test equipment is not a credential. To clarify- credentials are records of higher level education, certified training in a specific skill, published technical documents such as peer reviewed papers or text books, product designer/developer or maybe even just a good friend who can vouch for you. People here have asked that question repeatedly but he has not yet answered- other than to say he has lots of test equipment.
I apologize in advance if I sound too harsh. I'm tired of being told that I am deluding myself by being in this hobby. It has given me much pleasure over these past 45 years.
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Amir,
You are getting emotional. I was pointing out that it is not just the subset of audiophiles that struggle to hear nonlinear distortion but everyone is that way.
I have this image of King Kong hanging on the top of the Empire State Building as the biplanes circle overhead machine guns blazing. The A'gon'rs being the biplanes. You being the big gorilla. Or did I have to clarify that?
Perhaps you can buy everyone dinner and we all go our ways. You are clearly not listening to what we all are saying and we are not drinking your kool aid.
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Some of the greatest sounding musical instruments, in fact most all musical instruments and even concert halls were designed and built without computers and electronic analysis equipment. They were designed and built by artisans with skilled hands and ears. It's all about what we hear. When someone tries telling me I am not hearing what I think I am hearing, well that goes over with me about like putting a tax on a child's piggy bank.
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Amir says, "When it comes to non-linear distortions, audiophiles are notoriously poor at hearing those artifacts. It is for this reason that even poor measuring gear is praised as sounding good."
Tsk Tsk, another generalization without supporting data- bad science. Actually, everyone is poor at hearing non-linear distortions because they occur naturally around us and even in our heads, inside our ears to be specific. That is one reason tube amps without negative feedback sound better but SS amps without negative feedback can sound good too but look worse on paper.
I heard arguments once that IM distortion was more critical to a pleasing sound than THD, IM distortion occurs inside our heads too.
Thomas Edison used to have stage shows in the 1900's where he put his new phonograph on stage behind a thin curtain. He had a live opera singer on stage as well. He would have the audience guess if the singing was live or a recording. Sold a lot of phonographs that way.
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Amir is trying to prove a negative. That has never before been accomplished.
Nothing to see here.
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Wow, I haven’t dropped by in a couple of days. Still going, I see.
”The beatings will continue until morale improves.”
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@fleschler, you and I have similar experiences. I had an uncle into hifi in the 60s and 70s that caught my attention. He had a Dual turntable and a Pioneer receiver. Then I got myself a Kenwood receiver in the mid 70s just before my sophomore year. I bought more upscale Kenwood gear once graduating college but my hifi experience began when I went to a co worker's house in 1988 and heard his highly modified Quad ESLs driven by a Quicksilver Amp, modified ARC SP-8 preamp and a Sota Star with the ET-II tonearm on a Billybags stand. It was the most magical musical moment of my life. Since then I have always had an ARC tube preamp but I shied away from tube amps. First, having two little boys back then I was afraid for their lives and now that they are grown and gone I often think of getting some tube amps if not for the recurring costs. Any tube amp with output greater than 100 W/ch gets expensive to re-tube, it seems. It's not that I can't afford it. It's my mid-western upbringing I would say, because no one else I grew up with would ever spend a fortune on stereo gear like I have done. That night alone with Suzanne Vega and those Quad ESL's infected me badly.
You should post some pics of your system. Would love to see it. I've gone from Planars through the 90s to Thiels to Wilson speakers. I built a dedicated room in the early 90s for the Planars but then moved from that house. That was the best sound I had until now with the Wilsons. I had double walls, sound treatment in the corners and dedicated power. I did the ceiling in 1/2" drywall with thick, rough paint for diffusion. Now I have that sound with the addition of much more powerful and clear bass.
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Thomas Edison did blind testing using whole audiences in the 1900’s to show off his new phonograph. He had an opera singer and his phonograph behind a thin curtain on stage. The audience was asked to guess if the singing was live or a recording. The audience couldn’t tell the difference.
‘Now, do you really believe his 1908 phonograph was as realistic sounding as a live human voice? It did have something like 110 dB dynamic range.
Test conditions make all the difference in blind testing.
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