Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy
"Audiophiles are Snobs" Youtube features an idiot! He states, with no equivocation, that $5,000 and $10,000 speakers sound equally good and a $500 and $5,000 integrated amp sound equally good. He is either deaf or a liar or both!
There is a site filled with posters like him called Audio Science Review. If a reasonable person posts, they immediately tear him down, using selected words and/or sentences from the reasonable poster as100% proof that the audiophile is dumb and stupid with his money. They also occasionally state that the high end audio equipment/cable/tweak sellers are criminals who commit fraud on the public. They often state that if something scientifically measures better, then it sounds better. They give no credence to unmeasurable sound factors like PRAT and Ambiance. Some of the posters music choices range from rap to hip hop and anything pop oriented created in the past from 1995.
Have any of audiogon (or any other reasonable audio forum site) posters encountered this horrible group of miscreants?
Thank you. We don't have ads on ASR Forum. If we did, negative and bickering posts would help with that in how it increases page views. So you have that backward on two fronts. The fight here is helping the owner collection basket. Have you filed protests on that? |
@kota1 I believe that you're asking too much from Amir and ASR. Amir has a firm grip on ASR. Amir has strong convictions. Amir is intentionally deaf to opinions expressed which go against his convictions. And that's absolutely fine because Amir is master of the ASR forums. If you don't like ASR, join another forum. Or find another hobby. The world is your oyster, don't sabotage yourself trying to change Amir. Is the Hi-Fi hobby threatened because ASR is a one way street and Amir is the Lord of that street? Ridiculous. Find another street. |
@smprather you said, "there can be no debate", is this why you came to a forum that hosts debates about audio? Let's start with a discussion then. You saw @tonywinga post earlier, describing his system, the effort he took to make it the way he likes, the pics he posted. You saw @fleschler post about his background and experience. Let's just start with telling us a bit about your system and what you want to accomplish, OK? Feel free to start a new thread if needed. |
Pretty sure I can be a drive-by poster if I want to be. Regarding electronics, there can be no debate. You put it on the bench. If the output matches the intended output. Then it is good. Else, it is bad. Example: amps turn little waves into big waves that can sufficiently drive the load as if they are an ideal voltage source - which all classAB or D amps that cost >$100 can do now. That’s it. It’s just too easy to screw up, and @amir_asr is one of the best in the world at not screwing it up. Regarding analog/digital interconnects, there can be no debate. It’s just simple physics and/or EE theory. It doesn’t matter, but I’m an MSEE w/ 25 years experience designing analog and digital chips. I know the math better than most. If you want to debate speakers with me, then first watch this video on Floyd Toole’s landmark research (link below). @amir_asr can correct me if I’m wrong, but he uses an implementation of this research to predict speaker performance, along with subjective listening to verify expectations. I haven’t read all the reviews, but I don’t recall anything he’s heard that wasn’t predicted. If Spinorama says it sounds good, then so will blind listening tests. Other than that, as @amir_asr points out, the only other thing that matters is if it can go as loud as you like it without hitting large-signal limits. If you don’t believe in blind A/B/X testing to verify your assertions, then please don’t debate anything with me. You’re an audio theologist with money to spare, not a scientist.
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my question @amir_asr was whether "if it cannot be measured then it doesn’t exist" is an accurate description of your views. all of the above is perfectly fine and i don’t take issue with any of it. and i appreciate you answering at length. but i am genuinely curious whether you believe there are real-life auditory experiences with recorded sound that simply fall outside the purview of your approach to evaluating gear. in other words, do you think that everyone who hears a difference that isn’t reflected in your tests (to say nothing of the tests of other measurement-focused reviewers like goldensound and erin - guys whom i’m given to understand have been banned from your forum for mysterious reasons) is simply delusional? or is it possible that this phenomenon is just an obvious example of the incomplete/imperfect measurements you refer to in your last paragraph? |
No one responded to my comments concerning use of the most exacting computer modeling and measurements to construct the $850 million orchestral hall that is very inferior to 19th and 20th century smaller, shoebox designed halls with zero computer technology and very basic mathematics. Great posts today from Agoners. |
Hey @amir_asr, I know there are a lot of tough questions here but no one is banning you for your answers. Please bring down the wall at ASR, let people that don't conform to your dogma (and don't pay for a name badge on their avatar) discuss respectfully. I think you will have more members if you include dissenters and not take a big hit to your cash flow, all good. This is not a one way street where you are right and that means everyone else must be wrong. |
I repeat.... Always follow the Money... right into pocket of Amir-asr Sorry, I do not Buy whatever it is that he is selling. Certainly it is Not, testing equipment for the altruistic benefit of those audio enthusiasts and wanna be engineers who can only see their way to spending just enough, to achieve Audio Nirvana . I call BS... |
Amir,The glass is more like the electricity which should be the neutral fundamental.A better analogy for the audio component is arguably the special roasted oak cask and the vintage process used to concentrate and enhance the base grape juice flavours. But either perspective is fine depending on taste.Some people enjoy young unoaked wine and some don't.Most prefer something less natural but with a bit more sympathetic complexity.
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Interesting attitude. Don't teach us, but we will teach you. Wonder how they measure emotions. As far as I know, no one can measure emotions. Nor can they measure how one person's hearing is different than the next ones. Science has not figured the entire human brain. We are limited with "what we know". Also research is still going on as to why 2 people hear the same sound differently. There are so many articles you can look up on Scientific America and such sites. Hearing loss, internal/external ear structure, skull structure, etc leaves so many variables on the table that the "measurement folks" simply will not be able to measure - at least for now. For me, scientific validation is good and that is how humans have progressed. But keep your mind (and ears) open to new advancement and simply don't rely on measurements alone. You have a hearing sense that is NOT the same as anyone else's. It is impossible that everyone hears the same. If that were the case everyone would prefer the same genre of music.
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The wine equivalent is the music you play. The right analogy is the glass. Testing is to make sure your gear like that glass doesn't impart it's own coloration and distort the art. |
Amir,Thanks for coming here and responding in a level-headed manner.I do not agree with your approach to assessing audio equipment because I believe it is too narrow in its focus but I believe your intentions are good and your methodology is sound and professional.The idea is fine but like a lot of good ideas the enforcement becomes the problem.And that is the problem with ASR forum.There does seem to be a hardcore group of enforcers at ASR that seem to take delight in headkicking and kicking off anybody that questions the narrative.In my experience the worst of these are B.D.Woody,SIY and Jim Taylor.Naive objectivism has created a monster.Which is a shame.The topic deserves better.You deserve better. |
Thank you kota1 for those kind words. I'm typing between songs. I just played Eminence Front, by The Who. Can't get enough of that song. I'm getting old and have been retired for about 20 months now. I am so grateful to have the time and means to invest in my audio hobby. I enjoyed listening to music from college days through my career as a form of stress relief. Now it is more enjoyable than ever. Was working high stress? Well, I tell people that when I was working I used to sleep like a baby. I would wake up during the night crying every 2 hours. Now I sleep through the night- except for when my shoulder hurts... |
@tonywinga Very impressive system. The entire point of listening to music is to enjoy it and we do! |
Oh, and let me add this in defense of my irrational behavior regarding stereo playback reproduction. I played MJ's Thriller last night. It gave me goose bumps on both arms and the back of my neck. I have owned that vinyl record since 1983, or whichever year it came out. After 40 years of playing that record my stereo can still affect me so. If your stereo can give you goosebumps then you are there. Sit back and enjoy. How do you measure that? |
I just have to say I love the sound of my stereo system. It has a black background with excellent imaging and a holographic sound stage with fast, punchy bass. But please take everything I say with a grain of salt because I use cable lifters, room treatments and expensive power cords. Oh, even worse, I have mechanically isolated all of my stereo components from any vibrations above 3 Hz. I'm completely irrational. I don't know what else to say. I have no defense. I'm a half step away from tube rolling- if only I could get some tubes. Meanwhile, back to some music. |
@kota1 Yes, if smprather wants to impart some information of substance on audio equipment and music, please do. Otherwise... @mitch2 I am not attempting to belittle him (assuming it's a male) but I do find it just as coincidental that Amir decided to defend himself, his site and his view on the audio industry here as a new member while we cannot do likewise on "his" site. I certainly didn't want to start an argument when I joined ASR. All I did was comment on my own experience with the CD trimmer (trial) and I will end up selling it for possibly a 10X profit. ASR members could not appreciate a trial of equipment. And Amir is "hiding" the results of a poorly designed/measured $20K DAC because the manufacturer was "kind" enough to lend it to him for testing. Boy, that's benefiting audiophiles. Not! |
@mitch2, maybe @smprather is sincere and not a drive by poster, let's see if he responds. If he is here just to throw rocks you can't blame @fleschler |
This is just awesome, first, @kota1 posts this welcoming message: @smprather welcome to the forum...I think you will find the process very non confrontational and supportive. Then the belittling follow-up by @fleschler
It would be hard to make this stuff up. |
@amir-asr, I forgot to welcome you to the forum as well. Can you please post your personal system, preferences, and what you are trying to achieve? I think all of us here will be more than happy to be supportive in a non confrontational style. For example, in your review of the Paradigm PW Link (which I also own and AGREE with your assessment, stone cold bargain, great room correction) you shared that you don’t/won’t use room treatments. This would be a GREAT topic to discuss in the appropriate thread. You can use room treatment and then place acoustically transparent fabric over them so they remain "invisible". If you like ARC or any DSP room correction you will find that it works MUCH better in a treated room. |
@smprather welcome to the forum, I see you made your first post, do you want to expand your audio experiences and knowledge with some different points of view? Please share your gear, your preferences, etc. and I think you will find the process very non confrontational and supportive. |
Thanks. No one gets banned for expressing an opinion. They get banned when they repeatedly try to convince others that they are wrong with no evidence to back it. Member @kokakolia had 117 posts for example before being banned. Member @kota1 had 22 posts in a short span of time with amazing claims of a 7 year old cable is out of date, etc. Plenty of folks express opinions on ASR with no consequence. As I have said, our aim in ASR is to be able to back what we say. Standard claims of "my ears tell otherwise" repeated over and over again, with whole bunch of talking points thrown in there comes across as "trolling" and eventually we get enough reports to ban the member. Many such members also get personal and upset which accelerates their membership demise. On PM, we have do that as well when a member brings value to the forum. if you all you have done is join and keep complaining, then you are eventually shown the door per above. Just saying the tired expression of better soundstage, blacker background, faster bass, etc. doesn't add value and is not evidence of anything. Every audiophile tweak product comes with the same adjectives. Please don't come to ASR and try to convince people the objective data, research and engineering is wrong because you heard or read about such things on the product. We know. We have heard you and others say it. Post that here. Not at ASR. Finally, purchasing expensive stuff is just fine. I routinely recommend super expensive products that perform well. Many put value on how things look, feel, support, country of origin, etc. What is much less tolerated is when the company makes outlandish claims of fidelity, and measurements, listening tests, etc. show that it is not true. Then, if you are an expensive product, you get an earful. As an example of expensive product that is recommended is this Mola Mola DAC and streamer at $11,500:
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@amir_asr Thanks for trying man (for those of us that know, the words in this thread are obviously from The Real Amir). I know it gets hard having this same debate over and over. They just don't speak the language of scientific method. And they have all sorts of techniques to try and make it sound like they do. |
Typical ASR post, this one today by Finfet on the Audiogon critical of ASR- "There are people still believing these BS but there are more who quitely (sic) sold their expensive gears, bought cheap stuff instead, regretted so much money and efforts are wasted and finally started listning (sic) to music, without leaving a voting message in any forum. The process is gradual, slow, but powerful. Manufacturer will take far more efforts to get the same amount of people to believe their BS simply because ASR exists. So I'd say trust in the influence of your activities and don't let naysayers get in the mood. No proof, just conjecture. Typical of ASR posters. ASR members are self-important and think they can control manufacturers through their site. |
@tonywinga Amir_asr has the promise of uncovering bogus gear but falls short in terms of objectivity and fairness. Fairness in terms of accepting that people can hear more than that can be measured. Fairness in being able to counter a conclusion or debate it without a character assignation attack. Yes!!! This is the premise of my forum. Amir has no more credibility for his "reviews" or his ASR site than any other and is particularly distasteful to a contrary opinion, factual or not. Character assassination attacks can get one a deleted post or even revoke a forum on Audiogon. |
@noske What I may lack in youthful exuberance and naivety, I make up for in wisdom and treachery. So buying cheap garbage that Amir (an old fart himself) is a badge of honor. Guess I will stay over here with the old guys that have disposable income and buy top shelf European and North American Class D Amplification that you can not afford. Clearly as you are complaining about a $750.00 CCP made DAC. BTW bet my 5K time is lower than yours. |
@mitch2 I wholeheartedly agree with your statements. But I insist that everyone has to agree and think the same on the ASR forums. You can learn from ASR members and their posts. True.
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Is altruism so uncommon in this forsaken hobby that you assume not a single person with knowledge of audio engineering would do something for nothing? It speaks volumes to your character that you assume people are not inherently good by nature. Would you appreciate such criticism if you were in his shoes? |
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No credit due to me, I found the article link posted earlier by @nonoise in this thread. A fun and related read around the topic of measurement and sound, for anyone who may have missed it. Link is underlined below.
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This is a good example of how name-calling replaces meaningful dialogue and incites others, i.e., AG is a "healthy, civilized society" while ASR is run by a toxic, third world, dictator like Putin...really? I don’t need to be told what to ignore since I can think for myself. Pass the bong please. |
@rudyb +2
Another simple but yet insightful observation - thank you. I appreciate that @amir_asr has shown up amidst the noxious climate of this thread to respond to the many inflammatory statements. I don't need to believe or refute the information provided on ASR, but I can learn from it while abiding by their rules. For those who can get past the concept that everyone doesn't need to agree or think the same, diversity can be interesting and insightful especially when delivered with civility. |
I don't think a healthy, civilized society like AG should censor / ban amir or any person like him as asr / amir did to others. But we could choose to ignore him simply because you could not win the argument with a dictator from a third-world community like putin. His seemingly non-toxic statements filled with toxic tone / attitude should always be ignored. |
Name a few of these accredited journals. Include their accreditation status by the appropriate body. |
Let's see if I have this right, amir_asr has purely altruistic motives for reviewing and measuring equipment. He has no credentials that I have seen for test and measuring nor has he shown any type of equipment certification. If I am wrong, now is the time to show that. I'm calling nonsense on this. No one does something for nothing. Whether he is feeding his ego gaining notoriety through controversy or is making a good sum of cash, he has a motive. The fact that he himself admitted he would not report on a $20,000 DAC that he claims had a flaw seems to go against his very agenda. Are not all of his followers now at risk of spending their money on this flawed DAC? It would seem that his own moral standards have been compromised by accepting equipment from manufacturers to test at no cost. That is different from testing other peoples equipment for them that they own. Amir_asr makes some generalizations about, "audiophiles" that is not correct. 1) He says that we audio hobbyists in general cannot hear the difference in sound of various gear. And he has test data to prove it. I call that nonsense. The people in this hobby and on this forum can hear enough of a difference to be willing to invest their time and money into it. Many of the persons here benchmark their systems to live sound either/both outdoors and inside concert halls. Many of us play musical instruments and therefore look for recreating that live sound in our listening rooms. If generalizing that most stereo gear sounds the same albeit cables, DACs, speakers or amps across price points then musicians must be deluded to prefer a specific more expensive instrument over a more basic, cheaper alternative. 2) He seems to think that the people on this forum, with the exception of the trolls and flamers are naive and have too much money to spend on gear. I call that nonsense. Most on this forum are well moneyed, motivated and successful people with a desire to reproduce music as accurately and enjoyably as possible. The idea that these type of people check their brains at the door and buy the most expensive, shiny noise making baubles they can afford is ludicrous. Most on these forums are skeptical and require verification of genuineness, value and reliability/customer support before buying. The point of these forums is to help buyers beware. Plenty of accredited journals exist to review and assess the latest technology and offerings. Now and then a manufacturer comes along and tries to pull a fast one on the buying public. They don't last long. Enough people on these forums as well as the industry in general have the ability and influence to put a stop to shams. Over the years I have seen a lot of "giant killer" companies come and go, or the ones that survive eventually improve and develop a reputation for their products. Reputation is everything in any business. Sure, many will always go for that promise of gold for the price of straw but those companies quickly run out of customers. Amir_asr has the promise of uncovering bogus gear but falls short in terms of objectivity and fairness. Fairness in terms of accepting that people can hear more than that can be measured. Fairness in being able to counter a conclusion or debate it without a character assignation attack. |
As for the other thread about audioquest this is what I said and how you replied: I really feel sorry for folks like you. Instead of sitting back and enjoying music, you keep worrying about the most mundane things like how your wires sound! Learn to take some things for granted. You know, like how you don't worry about the bolts that are holding your engine together while driving. Base your audio decisions on science and engineering and you become free of such anguish. I suspect it won't be long until folks like you worry about your sock color impacting the sound you hear..... |
Non-comformity is in play every minute on ASR Forum. As I mentioned, look at every review I do and see the volume of complaints about my review. Heck we have entire threads dedicated to people just complaining about us: We will see if you walk the walk then, I will see you on ASR today using this same handle and if you can actually keep your word about and an open debate going without sending dissenters to the instant ban firing squad if they don’t conform to your opinion, no flame wars, just a discussion. BTW, you never answered my question. Do you keep non conformists and dissenters out of ASR because it might disrupt your cash flow?
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Kota1, the militia characterization is indeed nonsense. Yes, some ASR people use terms like “snake oil” that AG people may find offensive but it it is overall a fair and square site. One has to retain a sense of humor with all this stuff—what would any normal person not bitten by the audiophile bug think about someone who spends thousands of dollars on a cable without an iota of hard evidence that it performs any better than an Amazon basic one. It’s funny, and I can’t think of another hobby where this type of situation arises. I predict this thread is going to taper off now that Amir is providing such temperate and rational responses to critics who have misrepresented and misunderstood ASR and its “minions” (who aren’t losing any sleep over being called that.) |
