Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

By now it should be clear that ASR is Amir’s Sh!++y Reviews. It must be real fun to measure everything and not listen. Most folks on this site do not understand that audio components are made for measuring and not listening 😉

I find it hard to believe when someone sells the speaker they own and purchase a loudspeaker that has certain tweeter and midrange/woofer spec, assuming that it will sound good!!! Why? Because it probably measures well. And this is the science type, on this thread.

It took me 2 years and many a dealer/AXPONA visits to identify a speaker that I really liked. There were many $$$$ loudspeakers that I auditioned but I did not like some trait or the other. Finally landed on what I currently have. Of course this was using my own sense of hearing. I am sure, I approached it completely wrong, per ASR folks (I think).

but I doubt the people here have the humility to accept they know far less than they think they do.

And you are showing humility by stating that you know more than them? You joined this forum to tell the folks about this? Interesting!

but large audio manufacturers respect his results.

Walmart is also large. Does not mean they make the best products.

@quiet ,

Large audio manufacturers are not trying to make the best products. They are trying to make the best products at a given cost target.

Exactly what I wanted to tell you. Everyone on ASR shops at Walmart. Nothing wrong with that. But if some of us here want to shop at a boutique or specialized store, please don't tell us that Walmart is good enough. I probably can go to Nordstorm, but will avoid Saks, maybe because it is beyond my pay grade. Nothing to be ashamed about that. But at least don't say that the grapes are sour.

@kota1 ,

Point noted. I saw that too and hinted on the previous post.

@decooney , I was not even aware of Soulnote. Seems to be focused in Europe.

@fleschler sometimes it is better to move on and not have the urge to respond. Hope you are having a great time with your music!

Please don't come to ASR and try to convince people the objective data, research and engineering is wrong because you heard or read about such things on the product. We know. We have heard you and others say it. Post that here. Not at ASR

Interesting attitude. Don't teach us, but we will teach you. Wonder how they measure emotions. As far as I know, no one can measure emotions. Nor can they measure how one person's hearing is different than the next ones. Science has not figured the entire human brain. We are limited with "what we know".

Also research is still going on as to why 2 people hear the same sound differently. There are so many articles you can look up on Scientific America and such sites. Hearing loss, internal/external ear structure, skull structure, etc leaves so many variables on the table that the "measurement folks" simply will not be able to measure - at least for now. For me, scientific validation is good and that is how humans have progressed. But keep your mind (and ears) open to new advancement and simply don't rely on measurements alone. You have a hearing sense that is NOT the same as anyone else's. It is impossible that everyone hears the same. If that were the case everyone would prefer the same genre of music.

I find it funny that this thread instigated an owner of another site to come here and defend himself and his site.

But how convenient to leave topics he has no idea about and only reply to those which are close to his heart. Never discussed about my last post here on why everyone hears the same sound differently.

Also, what's the point of measuring so many electronics? I don't think he runs a charity. Everyone has got a reason. I don't believe he is doing community service, cause I have seen after every measurement he asks for charity.

And this same poster says that Audiogon members are "biased". But the he measures the equipment and claims to listen to them. How does bias not set in at that point? After all he is a ordinary human being and bias is in human nature.

@kota1 ,

Banning folks displays frustration in my view. When you have no answers to questions OR when you cannot convince the other party to be on the same page as you, you ban the person. And then come here and claim that the person was asked for evidence.

I am glad that sites like Audiogon does not have this banning process for people who stick to their beliefs. If I don't like your point of view, then good day to you and we are all good. No offense.

And it is even more funny, when I read about how the science folks say that posters here are ok with science related to chips in cars, aerodymanics, control neuclear technology, etc. Are we dealing with kids on that site? Do they understand the difference between "being human and having senses" and "human inventions that are non-living things"? We have a "hearing" sense. How are all those inventions they talking about related to senses? Those are "inventions to make life easy", so that we have more time for enjoying life (including listening to music). Looks like they are such a frustrated bunch that they cannot even think properly now. Medical science needs to come up with a pill to cure that bunch of their frustrations.

@amir_asr 

As to bias, see what you are doing? If I say I don't listen, you complain that I don't.  If say I do, you still complain.  Which way do you want it?

It's not me wanting anything. All I want to point out is that you say folks on this site are biased because they see the price and hence expectations increase. And I say that you are also biased because you see the measurements and then listen. So both parties are biased and not just the folks here. Whether you accept this or not - that is the truth.

I don't run a charity. It is a hobby that I enjoy which happens to create a lot of value for audiophiles.

See this is where we differ. Our hobby is to listen with our senses and enjoy. Your hobby is to measure and enjoy. I wonder if you spend a lot of time measuring the equipment, how much you time would you enjoy listening to music. But of course, it is your choice and I respect that.

And unlike subjective reviews, measurements speak for themselves.

Agreed. But these measurements don't consider the tons of variables that I described in my previous posts.

But sure, in your next post instead of complaining and throwing rocks, clearly state what question you want me to answer.

I don't throw rocks and I don't want you to answer anything. Just stop telling folks that measurements tell you everything. You need to understand that humans cannot measure something that they do not know how to measure it. There are many a science mysteries that the best scientists do not know yet. If you google it, you would find tons of articles. Eventually ( maybe 1 day or 1000+ years from now) humans will evolve and research will solve these mysteries. Black holes were unheard of in 1971. Yet they were finally photographed very recently.

You have a degree in electrical engineering field and that is awesome. Kudos to you. But neural sciences and the other fields doing research are not your forte. You seem to portray on your site that measurements are the end-all. I disagree on that with you.

Terrible of them, I know. Why let them have common sense and expect more performance when you pay more?

You twist posts per your liking. Anyways, I took quite some time to arrive at the speakers I have. There were some that were about $7k more than my current ones. But I did not really like their presentation. So if I had to go with your statement, I should have paid more and bought that other speaker expecting more performance because I paid more?

I think you have a very wrong assumptions about folks here. When I take the pains to audition loudspeakers, I did not go in with the intention to buy the most expensive speaker I can buy. In fact go back to my initial posts from 2005. I used to have the Quad 21L before these current ones. They were not even there in the list of "to be auditioned" speakers. I just happened to see them at a dealers and asked for a demo. So probably that was a mistake and I should have gone for the more expensive ones? I suggest that you don’t assume things.

Ah, you want me to be uninformed when I do my listening tests. As if not seeing the measurements somehow eliminate bias?

Like I said before - you will not digest the truth. According to you, folks here can be biased, but you are always correct and never biased. You are an ordinary human being. Nothing more nothing less. You have biases too, but not ready to accept.

I listen to tons of music. I am retired so I have all the time in the world.

Good for you. And completely understand now how you can afford so much time to measure and respond.

Well, we darn well know how to measure noise even if they don’t. They say this and that lowers jitter? Well, we measure that every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

And yet you did not respond to my post on why different people hear the same sound differently. Like I said before, far too many variables to measure.

When you get sick, you don’t want your doctor to take your temperature and blood pressure on the fear that "he thinks measurements are everything."

Again, you are ASSUMING here. Your problem is you ASSUME too many things. Why do you assume that I would not go to a doctor if I were sick? These statements are showing your frustrations. Is it because you cannot ban me on this forum? We are plainly debating on what each of us believes in.

I managed the signal processing group at Microsoft which relies hugely on psychoacoustics.

So you are telling me that the Microsoft from a few years back was the best they can do and if further discoveries happen in the field of science, they will not adapt/accept them? Electronics in 1950s was much different than what humans have achieved today. New discoveries happen all the time - at a much faster rate. Just saying.

I know what I need to know about perception of audio. No knowledge of "neural science" is needed, nor do any of you have any.

See that first statement? That is what is putting off many folks here and elsewhere. It seems like you are not ready to accept any more NEW knowledge and have a closed view. I humbly accept that I do not have the knowledge of neural sciences or any other related fields in that space.

As for visiting ASR - I have done so occasionally in the past and have moved on, since that is something which does not interest me. I know what I like and I choose what I want. I do read mags, sites and user reviews. If you looks closely at my system, there is not a component that was highly recommended on many site. A couple of sites and user reviews - maybe. Of course the Oppo was an exception. But then many mags, site (including yours), folks recommended it and love it.

I was not trying to mischaracterize you. All I wanted to point out that you do not know everything about everything. Like everyone else, you know something about something. There are many things that humans do not know - yet.

@amir_asr

Looks like a lot of frustration, when you are responding to my posts. You had to go back to my post 6 times and read them carefully and come up with 6 responses after picking and choosing what you wanted. I would have thought that a person who has all the time in the world would take time to go through the entire post, and think carefully about how to respond to it. But again - that is none of my business.