And like REL subs, many of the Rythmik plate amps provide the ability to be connected to either a low-level source (a pre-amp) or a high-level one (a power amp).
Are REL the most Musical Subs?
Forgive me if I have created a redundant thread. I don’t usually post in the Speakers area.
I have a Paradigm sub in my basement HT that has apparently given up the ghost after about 20 years. I’m not a huge bass listener. We used to use the area for movies but lately a different room of the home has taken that over. I listen to classical music and the system gets used primarily for SACD and Blu Ray. No desire for multiple subs. The front speakers are full range, setup is 5.1
I added a REL sub to my 2 channel system a few years ago, an REL, and have been delighted with the results. It doesn’t boom at me. What it does do is add the low level percussion effects that composers such as Mahler, Shostakovich , and modernist composers add to reinforce bass lines. I never realized, for example, how many gentle tympani and gong effects are in Shostakovich Babi Yar symphony.
The REL integrates all of this naturally without calling attention to itself. The Paradigm in the basement never did this but it was an older design and more budget friendly.
So I am inclined to replace the Paradigm with another REL in the basement but was wondering what the current thinking is with subs. I haven’t paid much attention lately and the stuff that I have pulled discusses multiple subs, Atmos, etc, and doesn’t seem to address my needs.
Placement will be different as well. The current sub is placed between the front speakers, and the gear rack is on the other side of the room. 20 years ago I had the energy to bury the cables next to a baseboard heat along the all, after schlepping the sub over the basement testing placement spots,but with advances in DSP I’m now hoping to place the sub next to the rack
109 responses Add your response
If I can add something here, all my friends with six figure and multi six figure systems are running the JL Audio Fathom or Gotham subs. Either in pairs or 2x pairs. The reliability issues with the top of the line JL subs has been debunked, they are made in FL USA, I don't know of anyone who has had issues with their top subs (maybe the budget end of their line). REL subs are made in China. The JL subs have more user control, i.e. they have a fully adjustable phase control where REL just has a 180 degree shift available which is a deal breaker. The JL subs also have an extreme low filter which allows the the very lowest frequencies to be boosted or rolled off as the room demands. Also, they come with a calibration mic to allow the built in DSP to make room corrections for nodes and modes while the REL does not. The JL subs by far have the most punch for the footprint, so if space is an issue they will absolutely eat the lunch of any similar sized sub. I have 2 JL Fathoms in my main listening room and have had no operational issues with them. I have two SVS subs in my HT room and both of them have had to be serviced. Good hunting and cheers. |
I think that if the post had read "what is your preferred subwoofer for music?" a good number of people would have said REL. I've watched a number of review videos and many people feel that REL is the best choice for them. Lots of very positive reviews. I can't say that they are the best, but I can say that they perform extremely well for me and a ton of other audiophiles. |
The dichotomy pointed to with regard to music vs. home theater oriented/labeled subs isn't one to follow with necessity, but rather one that rests with either camp and their potentially self-inflicted limitations. Some if not many of the so-called music oriented subs simply lack the capacity first and foremost to properly handle the demanding low frequency material found in a range of movies on Blu-ray/4K UHD's, while also being restricted into the infrasonic territory. Conversely some Home Theater co-labeled subs may be hellbent on squeezing that last ounce of extension out of a small size factor (albeit typically with larger driver diameter), with all that entails and which may lead them to integrate more poorly with main speakers. It seems to me though that when overall sub size and driver diameter exceeds that of the more "hifi"-oriented or -accepted sub variants/brands they're automatically relegated into the Home Theater segment (and the associations that follow), which is really a load of B.S. Look at REL: they're small and there seems to be a consensus about their integrating very well with main speakers, hence their popularity in audiophilia. Take then, say, JTR and one of their single or dual 18"-loaded subs of more prodigious size, and mostly there wouldn't be a bloody f*ck of an audiophile who'd give them any serious notice because they're (much) larger, not least the ported variants, and oftentimes more functional looking as well, so naturally they're just about blowing off the roof of one's house, right? Wrong. What many still don't seem to understand is that with subs you can "have your cake and eat it too," it's just a matter of proper capacity and sufficient* extension from a design that lets size have its say. A well designed and constructed, large and efficient sub will, as always with some groundwork, be able to integrate smoothly with main speakers and accommodate music and movies alike - in both cases even more so than some puny cube of an inefficient sub (unless with a multitude of them). It's not about either/or (i.e.: music or movies), but doing it right from the outset and thereby covering both bases at once. * A word on "sufficient" extension. This is an area of debate, but first of all infrasonics do make a difference with movies, although for proper effect and those very low frequencies to be truly felt you need prodigious displacement and a lot of power. Some also swear by infrasonic capabilities with music reproduction and its deemed importance here, but subs tuned that low to my ears don't always sound as "alive" in the midbass region. I've found that covering down to an honest 20-25Hz area is plenty deep for most occasions, even with movies, without negative impact on the midbass area, and this way one can also maintain high efficiency without ludicrously sized sub enclosures (i.e.: 20-25 cf. per cab). |
All REL are -6dB@ their lowest frequency and were termed "SUB-BASS SYSTEMS" by the initialed developer manufacturer Richard Edmund Lord on his Operating Instructions. Regardless of what their product is called today simply matching the REL volume level to your main speakers is not subwoofer low frequency integration. Their dramatic -6dB roll off at their claimed low frequency prevents them from exciting standing wave modes and allows them to be located most anywhere in the room. This locating convenience comes at the cost of discreetly amplifying and adjusting that delicate sub sonic frequency foundation by a few dB that so many recordings poses and you're missing. Like most things in this hobby, if you've never heard the potential there's a good chance you'll be satisfied by using a sub-bass speaker simply doubling your main speakers limited low frequency.
"schlepping the sub over the basement testing placement spots,but with advances in DSP I’m now hoping to place the sub next to the rack" I'm going to assum your potent Paradigm subwoofer was improperly positioned and adjusted resulting in never experiencing the potential of this -3dB subwoofer. Had it been, you would have returned the REL the first day. With the sub temporarily located at the listening position a low bass cadence is played through both the speakers and the subwoofer. You simply walk around the room making note of the standing wave modes (usually along the side walls) where the low frequency cadence tones sound their best. DSP is not a panacea to ameliorate the improper but convenient subwoofer location.
Its an amazing thing to watch while the low frequency cadence is being played through the speakers and the listening positioned subwoofer to see the BINGO! on the face of a novice when they hear the standing waves bass mode in THEIR room for the first time. THIS is the first step towards subwoofer musicality. Sub-Bass Speakers need not apply. They just don't go low...so, no. |
In a word: "YES" - the REL is the King of the Hill when it comes to integrating a sub into your audio system. I like the Speakon connection to my amp's speaker taps, and I've always found that the REL "sub bass" unit brought a wonderful balance across the frequencies, while also adding some transparency and openness to the overall sound. |
I run two Rythmik L12s with my Borresen X3s (which have faster bass than most speakers in their class) and they blend very well. I am an outlier though in that I run both subs stacked and in mono. In my system, mono subs consistently provide more articulation than in stereo, which makes sense considering multiple mono subs is better for mitigating room modes in theory. One advantage of the Rythmiks over many competitors is that you can cross them over as low as 30Hz, and choose either a 12 or 24dB/octave slope. Many/most subs cannot be crossed lower than 30Hz and only provide one crossover slope. The Rythmiks are incredibly well built for the price. In fact it’s hard to comprehend how the company makes any real profit off its L12 model considering they build them in the U.S. |
I'm wondering if your question "most musical" can be answered as "what sub fits my room and equipment best." I think the answer is "whichever sub is easiest to adjust for my situation". And even for the song being played. I'm particularly fond of the SVS SB16 Ultra (have two paired with Bowers800s) because they come with an iPhone app that lets you make all the adjustments with tremendous ease. There may be "better" subs out there (not sure; probably, there's always something better), but the app is literally the most intuitive, easy-to-use, app, to make the bass fit your room, main speakers, and song that I've ever seen. They are also priced very reasonably for a Stereophile Class A product. |
I wonder... how many people have experienced servo controlled subwoofers? I do mean "experienced". I've heard sealed and an open baffle triple stacked pair of 12" servo subs... it's the best bass I've ever heard. It is not even "just a little bit" better, it is clearly superior. I can't imagine I would ever go back to non-servo tech for bass. |
Purchased my first servo sub from Jonas Miller and Ken Kreisel at their Wilshire Blvd. store 1978. In 1983 the Velodyne ULD-18 provided more control far less distortion and loop time. Being just over the hill I found their innovations miles ahead then and now and still use two DD Plus. |
Very, very few @jim2. In regard to the servo-feedback subs of Rythmik Audio it is because RA is a direct sales (to consumers) company, so being able to hear a RA sub before purchase takes some work. The same is true for GR Research, with the additional hurdle of that company offering their subs (and loudspeakers) as DIY kits only. I’ve posted here on Audiogon about the Rythmik Audio/GR Research servo-feedback/open baffle/dipole sub (the sub is the result of a collaboration between Rythmik’s Brian Ding and GRR’s Danny Richie) on numerous occasions, and the number of Audiogon participants who have heard that extremely unique sub can probably be counted on one hand.
The world of subwoofers can be divided into three categories:
1- The one-of-a-kind Rythmik Audio/GR Research OB/Dipole Sub. The only people who don’t know how different this sub sounds from all others (including the other models from both company’s) are those who have not heard it. That includes almost everyone reading this. Think about it: servo-feedback control of woofer excursion, dipole propagation (with a plate amp that includes a dipole cancellation compensation circuit), and open baffle sound characteristics. Wow.
2- Another one-of-a-kind sub, the Eminent Technology TWR-17, the world’s only "true" subwoofer. Designed to reproduce only 20Hz down to 1Hz!
3- All other subs.
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@squared80 I agree with the sentiment that subs are either good or they aren’t, but for my own taste I find sealed subs with smaller drivers to be more “musical” because they trade peak output for speed and accuracy. it’s why I went with dual SVS SB3000 years ago to replace my B&W sub and the SVS are worlds better. They blended well with my B&W 802D also play extremely well with my 800D2. I can definitely recommend SVS. |
+1 @mijostyn - the finest sub I've ever heard was from the “Bass Exciter” in a classic JBL L212 (3) piece package - it provided clean, even, low-end reproduction from 70Hz to ultra sonic frequencies. Didn't play at all like a newer “thumpy” subwoofer. The output blended seamlessly with the towers and provided the perfect amount of low-end presence. Its obviously an older passive sub that requires power from your amp to fire. The best sub is the one you can't hear, only feel. Just my opinion |
I have a pair of REL S/510s that are partnered with Magnepan 1.7i towers in a medium sized room - 23' X 14' X 8' and they are very solidly blended. The absolute "must have" for any sub-to-speaker pairing in any rig is utilizing an active crossover to act as the frequency traffic cop. Highly recommend Sublime Acoustic for this piece of gear, it's simply priceless. I have a pre-programmed XO Module with a 120Hz/24Db slope and the RELs literally disappear. I had just one sub for about 6 months and recently added the second and the level of game-changedness is very clear and defining. |
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@seb_audio Sealed subwoofers rule, but the concept of speed is a fallacy when it comes to subwoofers. Smaller drivers have to move farther to displace the same volume as a larger sub driver. As the excursion distance increases the tension on the suspension increases. The suspension becomes non-linear until it can not move any farther. As the nonlinearity increases distortion increases. Suspensions in general are only linear in the first 25% of X Max best case. Larger drivers produce less distortion. You can compensate for small drivers by using them in multiples. @bdp24 I hate to tell you this but all those designs have to compensate for serious flaws which can be avoided by design. They are ....unique. As an example, a large subwoofer driver that is operating within 25% of it's X max does not need a servo mechanism. It's distortion is already very low. Servos are a crutch for small drivers operating outside of their parameters. Also this does nothing to compensate for room issues. A sealed subwoofer does not need any dipole correction circuit. 95% of the problems encountered with subwoofers come from the enclosure and inappropriate integration schemes. What subwoofers need are large and multiple drivers, unflappable sealed enclosures, a lot of power and digital equalization to get the proper balance in a residential situation. The best teacher is experience. I started using subwoofers in 1978 when I purchased two RH Labs units, a Dahlquist LP 1 crossover and two Kenwood LO 7M amplifiers. Selling that system was a big mistake. After that I had a set of early Velodyne subs which where pretty weak and eventually self destructed. By then I had a workshop and started making them myself. I also listened to every subwoofer I could find on display. Ported subs are for theater use only. Good subs can be used for both theater and HiFi. I tried open baffle subs given I always use Dipole ESLs or Ribbons. The response in room was impossibly lumpy. This misstep was followed by three sealed designs, the last being the most accurate I have ever heard up to about 100 dB. Going louder without distortion would require more or bigger drivers and I have not got room for either. The sad problem is that making enclosures like this are not economically feasible for manufacturers. The price would severely limit the market. I published the design so that anyone interested can make their own or perhaps have them made. Any good cabinet/furnisher maker could do it. The drivers cost $600 per enclosure and the enclosures somewhere between $10 and $20K each! Can the same performance be accomplished with much less expensive construction? I'll leave that for someone else to figure out. @bgross You bet. It is that feeling that counts. |
@seb_audio that's what I'm saying. It doesn't matter how big or small the subwoofer is. Smaller does not mean faster or cleaner. It's all about the capability of the subwoofer/driver. What most people mean when they say musical is that they don't want to hear anything below 30-40Hz, even if that's what the artist intended. Many pro audio subs are designed like this. It's just your preference, nothing wrong with that. But a 50" subwoofer will be just as 'fast' as an 8" subwoofer. |
Another vote for Rythmik. I have a pair of GR Research double trouble subs I like very well. I Owned REL a while back, the model with carbon drivers the same as their TOTL back then, can’t remember the model name. I liked the REL, but to my ears the GR Rythmik subs are nice upgrade. And I believe the other Rythmik models offer more bang for the buck than REL. |
So here’s my two cents: REL subs are wonderful and generally integrate into a 2 channel hifi system easier/more seamlessly than other subs. HOWEVER, they accomplish this by tapping into speaker level. Because my amp (Raven Audio Osprey) has a high pass filter at 80 hz, Using the HPF relieves my amp of having to reproduce sub bass frequencies (which effectively triples the headroom) and relieves my speakers (Raven Audio corvus reference monitors) of being encumbered by sub bass frequencies. So, even though the RELs sound fantastic and integrate so well, the dual B&W’s I settled on that connect at line level work better overall in my setup. They took a LOT longer and way more effort to “dial-in” (in terms of position, gain, and crossover frequency), but now that I’ve got them in the sweet spot, I’m very very happy with them. Finally, I 100% agree that stereo, SEALED subs are the way to go. The sound is tight and responsive and fills the whole room in a completely “de-localized” way. good luck! |
The Rythmik amps have high level inputs too. In addition to the crossover adjustments it’s more flexible with continuous 0-180 phase control, damping and extension adjustments, a PEQ to tame the rooms main room mode. It’s recommended to use the low level input for better sound quality with these subs. Also these subs can go down to 17hz.
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The Rythmik servo-feedback system also compensates for the increase in voice coil temperature, which all woofers suffer from, regardless of their excursion capabilities. Rythmik offers sealed subs with a range of woofer diameters: 8", 12", 15", and 18", and dual opposed/double 15". Rythmik designer/owner Brian Ding states all his subs are equally "fast". Fast is more related to woofer "settling time" (returning to "zero" when the signal stops) than anything else. Of course a poorly-braced enclosure (Tekton anyone?
@mijostyn: Oh yeah, the Eminent Technology TRW-17 is unique all right. It doesn’t propagate sound waves with a woofer at all!
The dipole cancellation compensation circuit incorporated into the plate amp of the Rythmik Audio/GR Research OB/Dipole Sub does not "compensate for serious flaws". Dipole cancellation is not a flaw, but rather an inherent characteristic of dipole subs and loudspeakers. Arnie Nudell incorporated large "wings" on either side of the midrange/tweeter drivers in the Infinity IRS to prevent dipole cancellation. Siegfried Linkwitz and Danny Richie use either "M" or "H" frames in their OB/Dipole subs, for the same reason. The Rythmik dipole circuit progressively boosts the signal as frequency drops, resulting in flat response to 20Hz. I’ll say it again: The only people who don’t know how good the Rythmik Audio/GR Research OB/Dipole Subwoofer sounds are those who have not heard it. I’ve owned servo-feedback subs before (in the Infinity RS-1b), but the OB/Dipole Sub is in a completely different class. It sounds very different from my Rythmik F15HP pair, and actually sounds more like the bass panels of my Magneplanar Tympani T-IVa speakers than anything else.
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@bdp24 wrote:
How would it do so - other than acting as a limiter? This debate primarily has your usual, lower efficiency and sealed sub design in mind that is built around a small, restricted size factor. As such heat dissipation from voice coils will be an issue eventually, but thermal limitations are not inherent to a wider design range of low frequency augmentation options that have higher efficiency as a core trait (of course with added overall size as a necessary implication) - certainly not in the context of domestic use.
But this comes at the cost of eating away of the headroom that might (or might not) have been available initially, only exacerbating the issues that come from lower efficiency and what follows here both thermally and mechanically. If you multiply the number of such subs used to appropriately accommodate the clean SPL envelope that’s required, you would be able to at least partially alleviate this issue while also opting for a DBA approach, albeit at a higher cost. On the other hand, when you have a pair of corner mounted, pro B&C 15"-loaded 20cf. per cab tapped horn subs with 97dB sensitivity (+ boundary gain) that deliver air-shaking +105dB levels at the listening position down to 20-25Hz, all the while exciting the woofer cones to only vibrate a few mm’s, you know you have actual and usable headroom in abundance and a wholly effortless reproduction at any desirable SPL. There’s no way to cheat around that other than blunt, core physics and letting size have its say, and don’t tell me audiophiles don’t need that kind of effortless bass delivery; if they heard it they’d most likely crave it, if it wasn’t for the size of such things.
The same could be said of those who haven’t heard properly designed and constructed high efficiency DIY sub designs (i.e.: not restricted to one or a few brands), sans all of your EQ-boosting, servo feedback, dynamic limiting, ultra high power demand and other electronic-digital trickery that will not be needed here (other than a quality DSP that will act as an elaborate crossover device). If anything it’s the purist subwoofer approach, and it could be even more so with the use of outboard quality amps instead of cheap plate dittos, etc. |
For those who want the OB/Dipole Sub from Rythmik Audio/GR Research but don’t have the tools, experience, and/or interest in building the required OB frame into which the woofers are installed, GR Research has a couple of woodworkers who will make the frame for you. One of them also offers the frame in kit form, pre-cut and ready to assemble, only wood glue and clamps required. And either paint or wood veneer if you want the MDF finished.
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@phusis: On the Rythmik Audio website designer Brian Ding provides exhaustive technical information on his subs. I believe details on the servo-feedback compensation for voice coil temperature variation and other functions may be found in the site's Technology section. Mr. Ding is not your average hi-fi designer, having a Ph.D. in electrical engineering.
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For 2 channel listening, once I heard RELs (as others have said, make sure to go with a stereo pair) connected directly to the high-level amp output, I was converted. To my ear, these are the most “integrated” sounding subs I have ever owned, because they are taking the entire signal from the amp. There are plenty of other great subs with great specs (especially for theater applications), if you are chasing lab measurements. FWIW, I used to be a Velodyne fanatic, but have changed to REL when I got intrigued by their approach. REL has done something different and amazing with their direct connection to the amp. Once you audition it, you’ll either like the sound or you can save some money with other manufacturers. |
lono24 May I ask witch Velodyne models you're referring to? How did you determine their position within your room? |
@m-db - I’ve owned many Velodynes over the past 20 years, in both home theater and 2 channel configurations. My first was an HGS 10 back in the late 90s and most recent were DD18s. They all sounded great at the time - those are fast, punchy subs. But I’ve also had power supply and/or circuit board issues over time. Maybe I had bad luck, but Velodynes have not aged well for me. They seem to have a 7 year or less useful life before needing major repairs. Back on topic, I use old-fashioned trial and error to optimize speaker placement in each room. I hear more detail and ambience (especially in percussion) from the RELs than any other sub I’ve trialed or owned. The best way I can describe it is that the RELs, when properly configured, dramatically widen my sound stage and open up recordings in a way that I really enjoy. It isn’t about bass - virtually any sub will give low bass. |
@travbrow wrote:
The thread title and OP’s "... but was wondering what the current thinking is with subs" to some degree - and for good reason - opened a can of worms with regard to whether or how musicality applies to subs. You’re right, 20cf. behemoths are likely not what the OP has in mind to pull off LF-duties in his home, but from my chair what aids overall realism/a sense of being emotionally involved (and thus "musicality") in sound reproduction is exactly a more all-out approach with DIY subs of higher sensitivity, incl. considerations on (outboard) amp choice, DSP, etc. While a brand like REL is often lauded for making subs that integrate smoothly with existing main speaker setups, my focus is to point at mechanisms behind this that aren’t exclusive to or even accommodated by popular sub brands because of their smaller size and other, and so saying there are in effect more successful ways to have subs aid overall realism and musicality. I’m not implying the OP can’t be happy with a REL or similar solution, however... sometimes what you’re asking can produce answers that seemingly go off-topic, but are nonetheless in accordance with what’s being brought up. @bdp24 wrote:
I’m sure Mr. Ding is very capable in his field, but I’m calling out the relevance of servo-feedback in a different context of subs. People seem to believe small subs are everything - and yes, subs from Rythmik, REL or other are small in light of the frequency range they’re called to reproduce - and thus that the likes of servo-feedback is a qualitative measure in every regard, when it isn’t. |
I do own another sub I use in my recording studio. It’s a Mackie HR120 (no longer made) with 500 a/b watts, an EAT pro 12" driver and a 12" passive radiator. Good to a very real 19hz, and many more adjustment possibilities than most home audio subs. Look it up as it's interesting. 92lbs makes it a pain to move anywhere but I have schlepped it into my hifi rig and man...what an effortless bit of woofing it woofs. That said, it’s unnecessary (one of the RELs gets into the low 30s) and the 2 RELs work so well that I’m happy as a clam in the sand with those things. Like I said...bought used el cheapo and I pat myself on the back and feel slightly superior for my sensible taste. You could do the same with your back, but don’t touch me. I’m sensitive. |
@lono24 Sorry to hear about those reliability issues, I get that. From the ULD to the DD Plus my only issue was a faulty IR receiver on a Plus. They repaired it for free along with a new remote and well out of warrantee. For Velodyne it wasn't noted until the early 80's release of the DD series. Sadly, it seems you may have overlooked the About Room Placement and Tip sections on pages 22-23 of the User's Manual describing the "first step" which would have eliminated the trial and error and vastly improved your DD's presentation. https://velodyneacoustics.com/pdf/digitaldrive/DDManual.pdf
You were just one model away. The completely redesigned DD Plus provided foolproof twenty minute Auto/Manual EQ room optimization for dummies like me. In the User's Manual on page 25, again the first step out of the box, the "crawl test". Manual adjustments were amazingly simplified with the unreviewed Frequency Response and Parameters Screen function of pages 10-11. http://www.velodyneacoustics.com/.webloc Regardless of the vast differences in our rooms and systems and my own in home comparison with a $9K Studio III, I'm certain had you properly positioned the DD's and used low frequency test tones played through your mains and adjusted the DD-18's accordingly you would have returned the sub-bass speaker. I'm a hack hobbyist and its clear what led to your subwoofer dissatisfaction, again, I get it. In my experience as a Bassist, due to their rolled off -6dB I respectfully disagree with your final statement. As with most things in this adventure your personal satisfaction is what matters in the end. All the best. m |
i would watch some of these comparison videos on YT at various price points to get the BEST one for your needs you can send them messages and ask questions too ! -i do ! they answer too! nice to have a free qualified , objective unbiased audio engineer accessible Allison made a A COUPLE SMALL 8" AND 10" BASIC sub wooferS BACK IN THE DAY & the electronic booster "electronic subwoofer" LOL I got this 15" sub fr parts express for less than $191 W/ PROMO CODE New! also got two klipsch 12" wireless subs fr COSTCO for $211 each ! and a Rockville 12" sub for $194 ! ALL these w/ free shipping ! I will also try the DSP dongle ! $62.00 ? does it make sense to upgrade the 15" & 12 " speakers w/ some better drivers ? $100-200 that have better specs ( go down to 20Hz or less )? I tried some cheap $200 each ! black Friday deal Klipsch wireless subs ( 2 ) yes you need 2 subs they say i got fr Costco prob waaay too lo fi just wanted to see what cheap would sound like ( = NOT good! ) |
@limomangus i disagree that you only need one sub. Two makes a dramatic difference in the soundstage depth and width. I have a small listening room, maybe coat room of Radio City Music Hall size 😀, and adding a second sub had substantial positive effects (most notably the two mentioned above) over my previous set up with just one sub. It’s not about shaking walls and floorboards, at least not for my tastes. Two subs are better than one. |
@limomangus It’s really not opinion, and it’s not at all about “Heavy Metal and want killer Bass.” Two subs do a much better job integrating with the room, dealing with room modes/nodes. allowing subs to work less hard with less distortion, etc. If you read the research from noted experts like Todd Welti and others the extensive benefits of adding more subs is very well proven and documented and is born out by the experience of many here as well where adding a second sub yielded huge improvements over just one. In addition, subs are not just about low, slamming bass, and good subs integrated properly have a huge impact on greatly improving things like better/more solid imaging and an expanded 3D soundstage. The good news is with companies like SVS, etc. you have the opportunity to try adding a second sub totally risk free and experience those benefits yourself and if not worthwhile just return it, so why not? |
Yes you are correct not just booming bass.But lower range and yes 3 D effect. But I feel one sub will give me what I'm looking for.I'm retired and at 72 ,there's no need for another sub woofer. I like moving stereo equipment around around ,especially all the different speaker systems I have aviable to me.,I own so much equipment now ,changing from solid state amps to tube amps ,pre amps etc..I have plenty of equipment. I really don't intend to upgrade.I like looking for cheap cds finding ones that sold for or are still spending for alot of bucks for.When I find them for a buck ,Bingo. I love the albums I have 1400 of them and the 40 to 50 for new ones doesn't cut it for me. Even though I have bought Mofi 45 rpm albums. |
I have owned or listened carefully to subs from SVS, Polk, Klipsch, REL. I currently have subs from B&W and Monitor Audio. For two channel listening I prefer high level input over line level, so take that for what it’s worth. I prefer the sound of the REL subs I’ve listened to (S/812 and T/5x) which I would characterize as being “musical” with “organic” but “fast” sounding bass over the SVS (SB-1000 and SB-4000) which sounded “clean” and slightly “sterile” to me. I looked carefully at Rythmik subs when I was shopping, and nearly bought one because I like sealed cabinets, need high level and line level inputs, and they have a solid reputation, but I ended up going in a different direction for aesthetic reasons. I am sure that would be a solid choice. No matter what direction you go, good bass is expensive, and I have no problem spending as much or more on the subwoofer as on a pair of speakers. If you elect to buy two subwoofers as many have suggested here, that won’t be hard. |
Had three different REL models over the past two decades for my two channel system. Single sub set up only. Definitely a fan. Surprising no one has mentioned the substantial increase in tonal density, imaging and dimensionality with a properly integrated sub creating a far more engaging lisening experience. For me, that was the "magic" as opposed to additional "punch" and "rattling" low frequency output. Perhaps that explains why REL is considered "musical" and often preferred by those folks who are serious two channel hobbyists. |
) can make a sub (or speaker) sound "slow". But the major cause of bass overhang is room modes.
)
