After the thrill is gone

How I relate to the op is, I have a pair of speakers that excel at this so I listen to x til my ears fall off. 

New music is the best way to keep the boredom from catching up, that and a fantastic system. 

My second reference system (c. 1975) was Maggies and tubes (Dyna 70's). I've gone through many combinations over the years and I would still take Maggies & Tubes like I do mac & cheese: Bring It ON!

My wife and I have been married 52 years and she gets a strong say in the decorating department! In 2020 we had a minor fire which resulted in major redecorating of the house due to some smoke damage. She talked me into getting new speakers to replace the ones I built in 1976 at the age of 26. Too large and ugly. In 1976, after reading a couple of books on speaker building, I proceeded to build a large pair of ported speakers using 15" Altec-Lansing bass guitar woofers with horn tweeters and horn midranges. The horns were purchased from the now (long) defunct "Speakerlab" out of Seattle. I purchased a spool of 18G enameled wire (I still have the partial spool) and wound my own inductors. The crossover capacitors were surplus. A friend helped me cut the cabinets from birch plywood. They were never beautiful but they looked OK until they were used as plant stands and the tops got spoiled. Anyway, I purchased a used pair of Klipsch Forte II with upgraded crossovers as the replacement speakers. They are OK but not as good as my home-built, largeish size speakers. My listening room is now in our finished, (walk-up) attic. I saved all of the components (from the old speakers) so I could try and rebuild using a different cabinet design but unless I build them in the attic, it would be most difficult to get heavy speakers up the steep attic stairs. Anyway, for anyone considering "rolling their own", the results can be most pleasing. I do get the sense that most Audiogon members are typically not "do-it-themselvers".

To me, speakers with horn driven mid-ranges cannot be beat. As for the Altec-Lansing instrument speakers, they were always a little shy on low bass but contributed to the overall sound of what were very dynamic and beautiful sounding loudspeakers.

I’ve had my B&W 801 with custom outboard crossovers for over 50 years! Albeit it’s not my primary system, the thrill is still as I remember when I installed the crossovers 25 years ago. In fact, I enjoy them more than my recently acquired Wilson Benesch. 

I ran various Alons for many years, loved open baffle sound qualities. Went to ported box for a couple years, couldn't get past sense of closed in sound quality. Some Klipschorns fell into my lap, wow, could hear the potential right off, sense of live performers in room unsurpassed. With extensive mods i voiced in over the years, these are my last speakers.

The Nola KO speakers are the end game speakers for me. I had the Dahlquist Dq 10's for 30 years. Then the Qg 20's for 12 years. 

i agree, carl marchisotto is one of the great designers (and nicest people) in the industry... his speakers through the various brand names and iterations were unfailingly open, sweet sounding, musical and natural sounding... 

The Nola KO speakers are the end game speakers for me. I had the Dahlquist Dq 10's for 30 years. Then the Qg 20's for 12 years. 

I was somewhat fortunate to hear a set of speakers at a store an hour away from home. I do not have a large room but struggle when staring/listening to a small box mounted on a pedestal. The speakers in question found their ways into my listening room and I have not even thought about looking for anything else. The final touch was to move away from all solid state amplification and boy it sealed the life long desire to keep what I have. I never tire of listening to the ensemble, and neither do my friends.

System comprises:

Pro-Ject turntable (soon the be replaced with Transcriptors Hydraulic Reference)

Wolf Audio Server

T+A DAC 8 DSD

Circle Labs A200

Audiovector R3 Arreté

i have been lucky enough to find what works extremely well in my room (typically the biggest problem to solve).

I solved this by not reading forums and dropping out of my audiophile club. I don't read blogs or reviews either.  I glance at the weekly audiogon summary and will sometimes look at a conversation if the title is interesting.  

Seriously, the press part is trying to sell you something and that's based on sewing discontent. The forums are all about, I don't know what actually, but the comparison and upmanship doesn't help. 

I settled on a small power tube and efficient speakers because I like it for the low volumes we listen at augmented with absurdly large subs. I'm 55 and can't hear over 13 khz anyways so highs don't matter.  

Stop reading this stuff and you'll find that you chill out a lot about your system.  Like all social media it's a trap that makes us feel sad and poor. 

I'm as thrilled with my speakers today as I was the day I bought them in 2015. 

Oops hit the enter.  Referring to the Mangepan 1.7i vs 3.7i's.

If your electronics and noise control are good you should easily hear the difference in the top end. Smoother and more refined and overall a little more relaxed midrange.

Don't have that experience anymore.

Just change the sound output to keep the brain interested...

Option 1. CD Transport - DAC - Pre Amp - Power Amp - Speakers;

Option 2. CD Transport - DAC - Power Amp - Speakers;

Option 3. MacBook Pro Audirvana - USB Converter - DAC - Pre Amp - Power Amp - Speakers.

Rarely do I need to use Option 3. It's slightly more dynamic, but less musical.

When the thrill is gone, and assuming your components and speakers are well integrated with the room, perhaps you may be listening to your hifi too much? Sometimes we need a break. Yes this is too strong a statement, but as the old saying goes; familiarity breeds contempt.
 

Regarding the Wavetouch; I would question the idea that the speaker is a ‘good deal’ at $9,500. You can pick up a pre-owned pair of Magicos for that. These rather rough-looking monitors would be a good to great deal at $2,500 maybe. Yes they probably sound very good, but other speakers do too.  I have a pair of Evolution Acoustics Micro One that are finished to a very high standard using the best components and they most certainly do not sound veiled in the least. They are powerful, open, highly expressive and throw a staggering (for their size) soundstage with real to life scale timbres / tones and imaging. With all due respect to the gentleman demonstrating the product, to say that every other speaker sounds veiled is simply not true.

i am listening to my AirPulse A200 on the factory stands topped with JBL 305s and a JBL 308 subwoofy.. streaming Tidal from my macPro laptop to an exterior SU8 DAC...i have been listening to this setup since about 2018 and it still puts a smile on me kisser especially with electronica... what I really need is a bigger room.

I have Maggie 3.7i's.  I have a pair of REL S/510 SHO subs.  Last week one of the subs lost power and even though I had one sub working the change was dramatic.  The midrange was hard and the upper range was rolled off.   I hardly noticed the drop in lower registers.

I had been using a grinder without ear protection and thought I damaged my hearing, it took me a few days to stumble on the loose power cord.  Presto magic again.

I did not spend time on the sub placement, one is in the back of the room and one on one side next to the outlets they are plugged into.  

Maggie's need good electronics and even then I have found the more power conditioning the better.  

@johnlnyc 

I listened to the very expensive, at the time, ML (CLS model). A solo piano record was played and I was stunned. It sounded like the piano was in that room with us.

There is magic to electrostatics - the Quads and my series 1 ML CLS reproduce acoustic music in a way that beggars the imagination. First time I was listening to the CLS my wife called and asked if I was playing the piano.

And if I ever find a usable pair of Apogee Scintillas I will add a pair of panel speakers to my menagerie (I have the amps to drive them!)

The only problem I have with falling in love with various gear is that you end up with several systems each having a particular virtue that you wouldn't want to do without.

Martin Logan loyalist for life. I’ve owned nearly every ML speakers under the sun.

Retired now, Spires and a Deph i, my journey is over. Tube integrated’s, turntables, I’m good.

And hat’s off to under $10k systems!

@joey_v 

Agree 100% - I have tried many different high end speakers and have found my holy grail with the Magico A5's paired with a B&W DB3 surrounded by tubes.

I've had planars  for over 25 years.  First, Apogee Duetta IIs and now Magneplanar 1.7is.  I can't tell you what happens when the thrill is gone because it's never left. 😁 

I’m still really happy with my system, but now I have to go listen to the Eagles… thanks for that!

@inscrutable

I’ve been thinking 1.7i, but debating with myself about biting the bullet “buy once, cry once” and get the 3.7i. Will be listening to both in a few weeks, and if the immediacy/dynamics aren’t as disappointing as they have been for some/others, will pick one and move on

i just went from 1.7i to 3.7i (still have both sets, i cannot get myself to part with the 1.7i's...)

both are truly superb, i think which is better is quite room dependent - at the price of the 1.7i it is an unfathomable value for the enjoyment and quality of music it delivers, and as you know, both require specific placement for them to shine

with either, i feel nothing is lacking in the ’immediacy/dynamics’ department... but then again i am fortunate to have excellent supporting equipment/amplification

happy to talk further with you via pm if you’d like, i can share a lot of observations and pointers

I must be lucky. I loved my first good speakers, ML SL3 electrostats and they were my mains (with a Velodyne) for 16 years. I loved them the whole time.

I moved into Dynaudio Sapphires and was very happy five years but I'd heard better and got very lucky as I moved into (possible end-game speakers for me) used Raidho D2 small floorstanders. Their sound, room-corrected has thrilled me for six years and I can listen to glorious rich detail with full bass for hours at a time.

I'd be wary of moving in a very different direction to buy an end-game pair. Lots of potential risk is what I suspect. I moved gradually into a speaker type and sound I really love and then got a great pair after fully understanding them.

Over the last couple of years I tried three new well regarded speaker pairs and none were as good as what I already had...so if it ain't got the "thrill" after an appropriate break in it's outta here. My current speakers have earned their place.

I had my destination system.

But never forgot the “decade of joy” I had in the ‘90s with Quad ESL 57s.

Then Kent McCollum of Electrostatic Solutions came to the fore as the preeminent 57 rebuilder. Among other significant differences is that the Mylar he uses in 2 microns instead of 13 microns. They play louder with more bass and treble.

Now, my system is built around ESS 57s.

Couldn’t be more different. I do miss the big dynamics. But what the Quads do with voices and small scale is nothing short of magic. Records that were very good on the big dynamic speakers are now sublime. 
Years ago when I lived with 57s, I ultimately wanted to hear the dynamics and sold the Quads. But they have again grabbed my ears. They draw you into the music in a way that no other speaker can, IME. Instead of the music coming at you, they draw a picture of the real thing as they pull you in. The more I hear them, the more I love them. I don’t think I have the right amp match, so bigger scale is clipping.

Am going to try a Quad 405 amp. Pretty long in the tooth, but said to be THE perfect match. Matching the 57s, he 405 rolls off the highs and limits the bass to 40-45 Hz. Which is what the 57s do.
Guess the audiophile bug again. The thrill was not really gone. I may keep the old speakers and rotate them. But laid back Quad sound does fit my music preferences.

@inscrutable 

I hope your health continues to improve!

There's a lot to be said for Magnepans, however, in my limited experience, subs make all the difference. I'm running 3.7i's with a pair of Rythmik F12 subs w/ XLR3 "plate amplifier" and the Rythmiks were fairly easy to integrate. 

The difference was not subtle. I went from being able to hear the bass to actually feeling it. It added a texture that is hard for me to put into words. The bass really isn't really obvious, however, until I turn it off -- if that makes any sense at all.

I added the subs one at a time about six weeks apart. The first sub was impressive, adding a second was an even bigger improvement and not just by double. 

Of course, that's with my ears, my room, my system. ymmv.

@jjss49

 

which maggies? you certainly have good gear... definitely get the room and speakers set up properly... doesn’t seem to me new conventional driver speakers should be on the radar for you given the other priorities

good health comfy house and home first!

good luck

Thanks.
I’ve been thinking 1.7i, but debating with myself about biting the bullet “buy once, cry once” and get the 3.7i. Will be listening to both in a few weeks, and if the immediacy/dynamics aren’t as disappointing as they have been for some/others, will pick one and move on  

@jjss49 ya know, tried to update the other day and didn’t see how without creating a new one. Will have to look again. [edit: just updated]

Two equipment updates … set up my VPI Classic 1 w/SoundSmith Zephyr MIMC Star through Lehmann Black Cube SE (that’s probably next on list, leaning to SoundSmith MCP-2 MkII) and Marantz SA-KI Ruby. The Plinius was completely refreshed and power supply boosted a bit by Ralph Abramo (Vince Galbo successor).

Have not yet done anything to the room. Been preoccupied with health issues and getting my work/woodshop set up.

which maggies? you certainly have good gear... definitely get the room and speakers set up properly... doesn’t seem to me new conventional driver speakers should be on the radar for you given the other priorities

good health comfy house and home first!

good luck

@inscrutable , If the thrill is gone you bought the wrong speaker. I have done that at least 20 times. I start hearing the problems and then run into ones I can't fix. If I can't live with those problems the speaker goes. 

I have been through every type of speaker you can imagine. The two most frustrating where the Magnepan Tympani IIIs and the Apogee Divas. Both speakers were at once compelling and fatally flawed. To put it in perspective I have not owned a boxed speaker since the late 70s. The last ones were Allison 1s. As I became more convinced that the single biggest problem with sound was the room you were trying to make it in I became more enamored with the acoustic advantages of line source dipoles and have not owned anything but since those Allisons.  I now own Sound Labs 645-8s and the thrill will never be gone. Every time I turn them on I am in wonder. I honestly do not believe there is a better speaker for me or for anyone for that matter. It is not that they are perfect, they are not but, the problems they do have are easily overcome and the end result is you are no longer listening to the room or the loudspeaker. It is almost if they do not exist. 

A long time ago I was at Singer Sound listening to “stuff” and kibitzing with the sales guy. Might have been the estimable Mr Guttenberg. I listened to the very expensive, at the time, ML (CLS model). A solo piano record was played and I was stunned. It sounded like the piano was in that room with us. A musician myself, I know from piano sound.

This was followed by my request for some rock. I believe it was a Stones record and what immediately struck me was how not so good it sounded. The speaker just couldn’t deliver the immediacy and clarity I was expecting.

I also lived through what I call the “boom and sizzle” period where many speakers were voiced to deliver earth shaking bass and “sparkly” highs. Little mid range. If it was there it was obscured by the high low emphasis. These could be very impressive at first listen. Wow listen to those cymbals that bass!

I settled in with a pair of Snell Type D’s. Due to room changes I moved onto Revel M20’s (Stereophile class A …lol) on stands. I still listen to them. Classical, Jazz to Rock to EDM.

I sit pretty near field. They “handle” every musical style. Getting the timbre the rhythm and pacing, the palpable force of the instruments/music.

I firmly believe that amplifier/speaker/room are critical. There are trade offs. I can’t expect the same volume and sound pressure delivery of the Philharmonic, A jazz trio, a Stones concert or a rave. I get the basics of good sound/music reproduction. 

QLN on of the best speakers along with Sf. love them. Been a happy listner for years.

@mapman  Ohm Walsh speaker owners seldom have this problem. 😉

I've had my Walsh 4's since 1986.  They've been re-foamed twice, internal batting has been re-tuned by yours truly, and lastly, since they are bottom vented, I've experimented with placement on carpet vs. 16X16 acrylic plinth.  

The acrylic plinth wins out for 80% of my listening because it's more dynamic and involving, the big exception being male a cappella choirs. 

@jjss49 ya know, tried to update the other day and didn’t see how without creating a new one. Will have to look again. [edit: just updated]

Two equipment updates … set up my VPI Classic 1 w/SoundSmith Zephyr MIMC Star through Lehmann Black Cube SE (that’s probably next on list, leaning to SoundSmith MCP-2 MkII) and Marantz SA-KI Ruby. The Plinius was completely refreshed and power supply boosted a bit by Ralph Abramo (Vince Galbo successor).

Have not yet done anything to the room. Been preoccupied with health issues and getting my work/woodshop set up.

op

maybe you should share more details about your system, how you have your maggies set up (and which models are they) - i looked at your profile/system, it is not up to date it seems

can take some effort to the get the very best out of maggies, but once they are dialed in, few will think the magic is lacking... even on extended term listening

Well, made decision (for now) to hold off on 2nd honeymoon or other dynamic driver speakers, and wait to get and live with Maggies for a while. I’m keeping my SDA-SRS2 (also for now) to remind me of the low bass and dynamics I may be missing, and see in what direction that may take me. At that point, acquire or keep as the case may be, and start on optimizing room treatments for the survivors.

Thanks to all for the input.

@soix 

For instance, I was seriously considering Maggies myself years ago for all the amazing things they do right, but what they couldn’t do as well was bring a heft, weight, oomph, etc. to the sound that dynamic cone speakers do quite well. By comparison the Maggies sounded a little more diffuse with less dynamic thrust into the room, and that’s when I realized I couldn’t live without having that more direct, dynamic impact and never regretted my decision.

Yes, wondering if I might have the same reaction, given I’ve ‘returned’ to those over the years from other styles.

@twoleftears 

Unfortunately, you can't take your speakers away on a second honeymoon.

 

 

Or can you...?

Well, I may attempt that. Over the years I’ve owned, or had/heard in home or a friends a handful of conventional driver models I really liked. There’s one available right now for a good price, and I may get them, and then also buy some Maggies, and see which stays, or if I become polygamous.

Now please don’t laugh at what I am going to share.. I started with Fisher DS-825 right out of school, moved onto JBL LC 310-1(The cone literally disintegrated one day and fell like tattered cloth and powder).. Moved onto B&W DM603-S2, then onto B&W Nautilus 805(Still have them), and then onto Joseph Audio RM 22Si(I enjoyed these with the infinite slope design before they started to get a little ear fatigue), Salk Veracity STs and now with some Magicos’ and Dynaudios... I have dabbled in adding Subs but can’t stand them with good high end gear now. I think I have finally found bliss with Magico.. Have no desire to switch to another brand or explore any further. They pair beautifully with Luxman.. I am happy as a clam..

Forgot to throw a pair of Tannoy reveals in there.. That I still have and like.. 

Don’t ask me why I remember all these model numbers.. It’s a thing for me..

@jond 

👍 Right back at you. Love the detailed description of your system. And with those pics it's easy to see what the technical aspect of the equipment does for you. Intense!

@baylinor Love the house of stereo! Great system and nice standalone house for it. And nice putting green out front. 😉

@curiousjim 

Add a pair of super tweeters and I bet you get what you are missing back and keep all the good stuff.

If one has to choose between details and dynamics, I'll take details.

I’ve had DQ10’s and still have some Acoustat Model X, panel speakers.  Last year I bought my first pair of “Box” speakers in years. I like them a lot, but there’s something about open baffle and panel speakers I’m really missing. 
Haven’t heard the current Maggie’s in a while…

Unfortunately, you can't take your speakers away on a second honeymoon.

Or can you...?

All the posts connecting rooms and speakers hit on a key to end game satisfaction. Room design and room treatment are a bigger deal than many are willing to admit. If budget isn't a consideration, designing a room is a big challenge with large potential rewards.

If not, a thoughtful approach and some experimentation with room treatment will go quite a long way. Many praise DSP vs room treatment, which might be effective for some, but I prefer not adding more boxes, cables and potential signal degradation to the path. Panels, etc. might be more of a PITA and less attractive to many...so listen with your eyes closed ;-) or take your time finding or making something that appeals to you. 

For every speaker type, I've heard plenty of systems of modest cost outperform others at multiples higher cost, mostly due to serious room treatment and optimized speaker/seating placement. Cheers,

Spencer

@timintexas 

Congradulations for finding a solution. It would be really disheartening to make a major expenditure and be so disappointed. 
 

Glad you found something that works for you.

@inscrutable I'm rather where you are however my pop (RIP) made the choice for me. I inherited his system which was SOTA 25 years ago...  I'll spare you all the full front end inventory. The electronics and speakers however are Jadis pre and Defy7 amp and the speakers are B&W Matrix 800s. Yes, the big "ugly" ones:

https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/691bw800/index.html

I haven't heard them in over 20 years. My concern is moving to them from my Acoustat 1+1s and sub. I LOVE the soundstage the panels give me even if they're not the last word in detail. I'm worried the B&Ws won't deliver... As it is, the big beasts are still in storage until I can reconfigure the livingroom and because they are so large, and the amount of effort to set them up is considerable, it might be a one way trip to disappointment town when I do.

Good luck on your adventure! And as always...

Happy listening.

This question really speaks to me. 

After reading all the glowing reviews of Magnepan, I took the plunge. I dumped my boxes and blindly ordered a pair. I live very rural and there simply wasn't an opportunity to audition them. They arrived, I did all the "things" recommended to bring out the sonic bliss I read about. I fired them up and...you know the smiley face emoji with the straight mouth line? That was me. I felt almost sad and perhaps a bit duped. They were.... Ok.  This was a big deal for me and I was so disappointed. I kept reading, kept dicking around with them, following more advice I would read. The result? Pffft.  I blew all this hard earned money and I had gotten these big, thin sounding, far over rated speakers that mostly just sounded annoying. Buyers remorse? Oh yes Sir. 

I quit reading all the "expert" advise given. I decided I don't like them anyway so let's try a different approach. They are just going to sit there and gather dust anyway. One day, a couple months after buying the Magnepans (and still kicking myself for my stupid purchase) I received an email from Klipsch. There was a sale on subs. Of course I had read all the "expert" opinions that subs were impossible to integrate with Magnepan- unless you wanted to waste more money with their bass panels. No way would I spend another penny on a panel that to my ears, could not do squat with real bass. Incidentally, I am not a thundering bass guy. Anyway, I looked at my meager checking account balance and thought "gone this far, what have I to loose?".  I ordered a 12" sub and waited. Yes snobs... I know... a Klipsch. Keep in mind the idea of a REL or anything like that was out of my financial scope and considering how I was feeling, it was remarkable I even bought a THAT!

The sub arrived and without any anticipation or excitement, I hooked it up. I went in and changed my crossover, draining all the bass out of the Maggie's. Sent everything below 100 to the sub. 

I fired the system up, expecting to be kicked in the teeth again.

OMG..... These wimpy, tin-sounding overpriced weaklings lit up! I mean they came to life! For the first time I smiled. They were lovely. 

As for not being able to easily integrate a sub with Maggie's? What a crock. I keep the sub pulled way back.. I am barely aware of it- no thumping or banging. What it (the sub) allowed was for the Magnepans to shine where they are able. The sub added the warmth and richness that was absolutely missing.  

So, here's what I think in regards to switching from a box to a Maggie. You will lose the ability to play back ALL types of music- say goodbye to Madonna but hello to Shubert!  The speed and crystal sharpness of electronica will dazzle you. Out of the box you MIGHT be  disappointed but with some fussing, you will get it right if you like that sort of thing. To much fussing and you have diminished returns. You MIGHT find that at higher volumes they are not pleasant. At lower volumes, they can be sublime.  Irrespective of what "experts"  say, a sub is your friend.   Probably it can be summed up like this- Magnepans are like a mail-order bride. You won't have a honeymoon period but instead, you will grow to love them.  It was not what I personally expected when spending that much money but, in the end, it's ok.  

As an aside, I am 59 and though I never thought of this as my "retirement" system maybe it is lol. I suspect I will be buying again in the future and run two systems. I won't get rid of my Maggies- I truly appreciate them for what they are. 

About 4 years ago I was able to buy Magnepan 3.7i's. I've added a couple of REL subs.  I've heard many brands over the years and unless you're spending 10x the money or more, nothing (IMHO) has come close. Love a good pair of Wilsons, or Magicos, but I feel I'm 98% of the way there with these, and can retire without the guilt of spending 6 figures.  Every time I sit and listen, I am truly amazed.