I have 3 48x24x6 bass traps above my listening position. I plan to add diffusion above the speakers. It partly depends on your flooring. With carpet, the diffusion is more important but if you have hard floors the ceiling cloud helps a lot.
Acoustics experts - a little help please
Hey all,
I have 9 foot ceilings and I sit in a 9 foot equilateral triangle with my speakers. Do I need to treat the ceiling? Absorption or defraction? I'm trying to get a deeper more 3D soundstage.Speakers are 46" from the front wall which is treated with absorption and defraction.
Thanks!
60 responses Add your response
@maprik What are the other dimensions of your room? |
The room is actually 2 rooms joined. My music room and a dining room with a large opening between them. Essentially no left wall for the left speaker and the right wall is about 8 feet from the right speaker. There is a bany grand piano that helps with defraction of the right speaker. Floor is hardwood but I have a nice thick rug and pad under that. See system photos. |
Setting expectations straight, 3D is a foolish concept concept in purist stereo. A BACCH processor will trick and give some semblance of 3D in a stereo rig. You will need a multichannel rig with ceiling speakers, back speakers etc and object based audio processors for true 3D. But, if you turn everything loud enough with the stereo and everything’s smacking the face left and right, it could help you not think about (obsess about) 3D. These type of obsessions tend to occur at low listening levels.
Having said that, hang 6 inch traps (absorption) right above your listening position with an air gap like what @mashif did. It will mitigate the impact of standing waves/modal issues heightwise. (Floor and ceiling are parallel surfaces)
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The best soundstage depth I ever heard was 3" single driver in large TL cabinet and Wavac SET amps. Yes, depth was 10’ back or more. Song must be appropriate and one was Michael Jackson’s song with footsteps in it - maybe Thriller. His room was huge. Maybe 20’ x 30’ and speakers way out into the room. Wall behind was maybe 15 feet back. The large room, speaker position, along with phase and time coherent speaker were the keys. The first and easiest step would be maximize distance behind the speakers. Not sure of treatment behind the speakers would work. That absorbs reflections. |
Room acoustics is a complex matter... I had no experience as a serious acoustician in many room with many different problems... I know how to learn what we need to solve a specific problem in a specific room... Consulting a serious acoustician will help you... Or do as i did but it takes much time so much most did not have the luxury to do it ...Read articles, books, and do your own experiment in your room...It was the best fun in my life... I cannot advise you without being myself in the room and experimenting...I did it mechanically with my ears... A pro acoustician can give advice very useful for your specific problems...
The best soundstage i heard was mine in my first dedicated room, but the tuning takes me 2 years...
I apologize to be of so little concrete help....
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i concur with this very good recommendation... I listened his videos few years ago ...
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I dont make a concrete point for you because you dont read the articles i pointed to perhaps in many other threads.. Here a man is in need of a concrete advice, applied acoustics is a serious job i cannot do at distance being not an acoustician with multiple experience in applied acoustics... I apologize and i recommended a serious acoustician... Now you wrote 2 posts insinuating that what i said is meaningless... Go read my articles recommendation and then criticize them...I will answer straight... But if you wrote posts to insinuate without arguments you are just trolling me ... Is it clear ? Give me an example where i dont make a point by the way ? Go i wait...
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Dont feel sorry but instead stop insinuating about someone post and spoke directly to someone face...Your "sorry" feelings resemble you false question mark after your false question " why now ? "... And if you claim something about someone spell it clearly... It will be appreciated...
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@mahgister gave good advice about consulting an acoustician. Most people here are too proud to consult one or just want to try to figure it by themselves spending years sometimes with mediocre results. Jeff at hdacoustics is very good. He can tell you what you need to do to get the best sound out of your space. Good luck! |
It takes me 2 years full time to understand my room and created the necessary mechanical control devices...it was fun but i was retired and had the time... Small Room acoustics, different from great Hall acoustics in his exigencies and conditions,is a very complex matter... People want simple solutions... I recommend to study and experiment... It is fun and rewarding... If you want a specific advice at distance you must consult an experienced acoustician... I recommend to the OP if he has not the leisure to work it himself and study it to consult a serious acoustician... If not, you must read, study,experiment... Nobody can replace your ears/brain by his...
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So I downloaded some audio apps to my phone. One of them measures RT60. I put my phone in my listening position and clapped my hands at both right and left speaker positions. I don’t know if this is the correct way to do this since there were no instructions and I can’t find any online. Anyway, multiple tries from these 2 positions gave me RT60 readings of 0.34 - 0.36 msecs. From my research it seems anything below 0.50 is good. But what does this tell me other than I have an acceptable reverb level? . |
So if bacch is out of the question..... here are some things you could try to achieve the goal of tricking yourself into deepening/layering the soundfield...incrementally. - a sub sitting on the front stage or a front corner did no favors for above mentioned goal. Get a pair of microsubs that are easy to move around/hide away like the kef kc62. You will need to keep them somewhere behind or near the couch on either side, use a crossover betwern 80 to 100hz and experiment. Keep an open mind and stray away from the 'group think' on dovetailing/where a crossover should be set. - Sidewalls are far enough away that they may not matter much, proximity of couch to the back wall is the biggest culprit, said distance is too small for correctQRD diffusion formula to work properly. Some diffusion at the equivalent of reflection points on the ceiling may bear some fruit on the 9 ft ceiling. - Your 2 way speakers appear to be nothing to write home about. A concentric driver design such as a TAD ME1TX monitor/standmount would be a conducive speaker, if you can afford it. There are some things designed into tads, in consideration of phase characteristics when more than 1 speaker is in a space (as would be the case with stereo). On the cheap, a Tekton impact monitor could serve as an alternate perhaps, but, less forgiving than the tad. You'd have to get more ocd with placement, toe-in and interspeaker distance. The latter's array produces some semblance of a horn+concentric driver hybrid - Watch out for some culprit electronics that have a soundfield 'flattening' effect....couldn’t say much about a Hegel, but a very famous brand that starts with a 'M' tends to have that effect and so on... It may be the best you could do in consideration of your room's limitations.
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In my opinion, all the equipment in between the speakers is destroying your 3D soundstage. Try to keep all audio equipment below the height of the speakers close to the floor see here @ 3:30. Mike |
@ditusa This is great advice, components and racks not good room treatments. My sound stage extends from very near floor to ceiling, coherent life size images require properly designed acoustic treatments on front wall, diffusion works for me. |
I am sure a professional would help. I am currently treating my HT/2 channel listening area. I read several forum discussions, watched several videos and consulted with ChatGPT before proceeding. I found ChatGPT to be excellent. You send the dimensions of your room, equipment, room specifics (windows, carpeting, furniture etc) and even send it pictures of your room. |
BTW, even though ChatGPT recommended it, I chose not to treat my ceiling. Floor to ceiling Bass traps in all corners, front & side wall absorption, rear wall deflection. I did not want to overdo it & have thick wall to wall carpeting & a large overstuffed couch. Early indications are excellent. Improved clarity, no loss in dynamics. |
If it wasn’t that obvious earlier, try moving your seat forward as a test, closer to the speaker/away from the back wall....I would wager that a midfield listening distance not more than 7 ft and playing with toe-in may increase the perception of depth and layering....free of cost, to begin with... (Before trying other speakers, tinkering with subs, etc) |
Most important point, which I assume you have delt with, but just in case - Do you have a recording that has the information needed to create a holographic image? Most recordings do not actually have this information. I use an Opus 3 recording of "Depth of Image", a compilation of exceptionally recorded miscellaneous vocal, small orchestra, solo guitar, etc. The booklet or record jacket tells you what you will/should hear in a well set up system. I first heard this played over a modest, but well set up, system. A group of 4 musicians and you felt you could walk in amongst them and join in. That said, I have a set up similar in size (9'x10'x9'). My speakers are a bit further out into the room (6'). I located my chair with bass nodes/nulls and high frequencies in mind. I have no sonic room treatments or bass traps, etc, but I do have drapery, big Persian rug, bookcases, etc. I have box speakers and do toe them in a bit. It all works quite well. Your question re ceiling treatment, I don't think so unless you have an up tilted frequency response you can't deal with in other ways. I looked at your photos and I could imagine all of that equipment on the wall behind the speakers might interfere with imaging potential more than ceiling reflections.
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To OP As posted above, the recording must have the sense of depth and height. IMO, if the recording has the sense and you know it but cannot hear that, then i think it must be your speakers?? What i have observed is that I have a set of speakers that images very well, BUT i also have a set of speakers that cannot image with depth and height. so do not disregard that speakers also play a role in depth/height projection |
Made a few simple changes in moving equipment below the height of my speakers and moved my coffee table away. Also removed the top shelves of my equipment stands since they aren’t in use now so the stands are more skeletal. I also moved my TV back as far as I could and have it covered with a defraction panel. Unfortunately i can’t move my TT shelf that is bolted to the wall studs. Nevertheless, the results are positive. Listening to Birds by Dominique Fils-Aimé i think the bass is moved back a little into the soundstage with the vocal a few feet in front. Other interesting percussion sounds cime from behind the vocals as well. It’s a good start for 0$. Now thinking about ceiling treatments. |
OP, Glad you are hearing good results by changing what is between the speakers. Once I start fiddling with the stuff in between my speakers, I realized I could easily hear the hole they created in the sound stage. I motivated me to eliminate the stuff in the center, except the amp and the soundstage filled the space and behind it. It was painful for me, buying a 4 meter expensive pair of interconnects, but worth it. |
My understanding is that first reflections affect sound the most so treating your side walls, ceiling, and floor at these points is important. Rather than putting the cloud directly above your head, I suggest you place it just as you would absorption for the side reflections, which would be in front of you. Right above your head would likely not take care of the reflection off the ceiling at the listening position. My virtual system has pictures of same. |
Hi, Maprik One of the most effective and efficient resources on your topic is Jim Smith's book (and DVD) "Get Better Sound". Highly recommended in these and other forums. Here is a link to Jim's website: Jim also offers personal consultation. Check out his entire website. Most Highly Recommended. Cheers, Ken
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You are right and it is even more complex than just the right balance of reflections locations/diffusion locations/absorption locations... The acoustic material content of the room matter, his size parameters , his geometry, his topology (windows doors apertures) and his acoustic material compositioncontent... Without being there it is difficult to gave advices if we are not a very professional experimented acoustician... Anyway i used non esthetical resonators and it takes me 2 years to be done with them i had experience really in one small room only ...
The only thing i know is that any room can be tuned, i tune mine with a speaker in a corner for example near the wall and the other not in a corner ...
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@deep_333 why would you say: "Setting expectations straight, 3D is a foolish concept concept in purist stereo." -? I'm primarily listening to CD thru McIntosh MX-113 and a 2200 amplifier, and Sonus Faber Cremona speakers. My experience with this is 180 degrees opposite your assertion. It is dependent on the recording quality (and most modern releases won't cut it) but in my treated room listening to pop, jazz, classical and even some older electronic music I can get a massive sound stage with well-defined height, width & depth. Sometimes the center image seems to float behind the speakers and sometimes well on front of them. On many tracks a single element will sound like it's behind the wall that's behind my head. The effect can be even more pronounced when listening to my (spotlessly clean) vinyl with a Rega P6 and Ortofon 2M Black cart. I blame this added sense of space to the crosstalk & delay inherent to vinyl playback, that and the extremely high quality of some vintage lacquer cuts from tape-not-digital. "Lush" barely describes the experience.
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