nothing scary scottwheel…your views have been expressed here by many, many times, for many years… you make some good points… though many of us have a different experience and point of view… its just very repetitive, and being so aggressive and publicly calling people you don’t know dicks sure doesn’t help. This is an old endless debate that has never changed anyone’s beliefs. We are all happy with our music systems so all is well.
WHY IS THERE SO MUCH HATE FOR THE HIGH END GEAR ON AUDIO GEAR?
It seems like when I see comments on high end gear there is a lot of negativity. I have been an audiophile for the last 20 years. Honestly, if you know how to choose gear and match gear a lot of the high end gear is just better. When it comes to price people can charge what they want for what they create. If you don’t want it. Don’t pay for it. Look if you are blessed to afford the best bear and you can get it. It can be very sonically pleasing. Then do it. Now if you are also smart and knowledgeable you can get high end sound at mid-fi prices then do it. It’s the beauty of our our hobby. To build a system that competes with the better more expensive sounding systems out there. THOUGHTS?
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“being so aggressive and publicly calling people you don’t know dicks sure doesn’t help.” Respect is a two way road. It was a response to a remark about having a brain injury. And I called that out as a dick move. It was a dick move. Honestly I don’t care. But manners will be met in kind. Good or bad. |
Nope. You started with using "dick" as an adverb on 11-30-23 @6:08pm and I asked if you hit your head recently on 12-01-23 @12:06 pm. I really didn’t wanna partake in this thread but your oh so holy attitude was getting too much for me to ignore. No one owes you anything in the way of "proof" no matter how much sophistic effort you put into your flimsy premise that we have to be able to verify and repeat it for you to believe it. No one. All the best, |
We can discuss... But discussion is a meeting between people who spoke with one another without prejudices... Asking for a double blind test as only proof for any subjective testimony given in good faith in a hobby site about anyone using something in his audio system /room is asking too much from a too high chair ...😁 It is a hobby site not a pseudo-scientific or even a serious circle about electrical measurement as a hobby ... Speaking about the gear is a hobby , and measuring and speaking about the electrical specs verified as the only valuable information over anything else is another hobby as playing with tools is another hobby .. ... My own hobby is more about acoustics and music ...Way less about the gear piece listenings than the average subjectivist hobbyist, or way less about the electrical specs verified and presented as unique guarantee for a good S.Q. as the average objectivist hobbyist ... We must respect the experience and beliefs of the other people ... It is not so hard to do with only arguments, no insults...
By the way scottwheel it would have been way more useful to explain why the BACCH filters you already own are an acoustic revolution instead of pushing people in their corner with the urgent use of double blind test as the only way to validate an experience they already claim as their own meaningful experience , nevermind if they are right or wrong ... ...Respect must be winned ... Helping people is not giving them an ideological lesson first and last but a true useful information ...
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scottwheel77 posts
So this is the one you can't find. Tells us a lot about you. All the best, |
@nonoise when start talking like @scottwheel does now. I’m done. The language the overly aggressive commenting when it is unnecessary completely loses me. Someone trying to force their opinion on you so bad that they don’t see how disrespectful they are being to other forum participants. The sad part is that he doesn’t even see it. Most people on this thread have been doing audio 15, 20, 30 years and all of the sudden he has all the answers to all the audio riddles? GOH! |
@mahgister , it doesn’t have to be the only proof....but, why wouldn’t a golden ear bat have the courage to pass a blind comparison on a subjective tesimony he provided? For example, i have passed cable comparisons 18/20 to 20/20 times on my rig (highly statistically significant). It helped zip the yapper of a ASR educated moron who lives in my town. He’s a very reformed cat now. Lol Put your money where your mouth is boys (When the going gets tough, the tough get going!).
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“By the way scottwheel it would have been way more useful to explain why the BACCH filters you already own are an acoustic revolution instead of pushing people in their corner with the urgent use of double blind test as the only way to validate an experience they already claim as their own meaningful experience , nevermind if they are right or wrong ... ...Respect must be “
I thought I did explain the BACCH SP. As for validating other peoples’ experiences that comes down to two things. What is the likelihood of one’s observation to be the result of the actual sound? How committed are you to having personal experiences accepted as objective reality? If some one tells me they went to the grocery store and bought groceries I’m not going to question it. If someone says they can make themselves invisible I’m asking for evidence. If the response is “How dare you ask for evidence! Who are you to question my abilities?!” I don’t demand anyone do any do anything. I just make it clear that if someone expects me to believe something that I am skeptical of I want something more reliable than anecdotal evidence. Apparently that’s outrageous. |
I think you have not understood what i am saying ... First i do not have to put my money where my mouth is ...😁 I dont play game ... I for example used simple blind test myself ( not double blind) with my small grid of Schumann generators (10 bucks each) and i pass it for my own education and working .. I dont sell this ... And there is no known science about this as much as i know .. ... Second i dont like the expressions "golden ears" not much as "tin foil hat" they are insults .. Any person with his hearing trained with acoustics concepts in a room by simple experiments learn something ... No need to have "golden ears" ... There is a big difference between double blind test public protocol and simple blind test in private setting used in your own audio optimization process in an incremental number of steps , with all the time you want , all the repetition you wanted , with the music you pick which is well known to you ( for me albums i know for fifty years) and within an acoustic set of conditions you have put yourself together and which you know very well, all this in complete relaxation... Any audiophile working on his system use or MUST use simple blind test ... Public blind test protocols may be interesting and revalatory on some aspects of a product , but they are more a show and very difficult to put in place rigorously and do not demonstrate anything of great value save in a statistical way ... For any individual experience they are useless ... Simple blind test is on the opposite a necessary tool for all of us because very simple to use as a tool ... I dont sell product, i dont recommend gear and by the way i dont buy tweaks, save at peanuts cost, i created my own devices homemade at no cost and i dont suggest anything as fundamental save acoustics concepts and simple experiments which are more important than any price tag components .. i dont feel the need to prove anything to anyone... My 700 bucks speakers and headphone system speak for me to my ears ... There is no reason and no no need to appeal to double blind test protocol in room design and for acoustic tuning and tuned devices as Helmholtz resonators and other acoustic devices... And when i tune by ears the damping load of my speakers and my coupling/decoupling sandwich of materials to control vibrations and resonance i never need a blind test ...😁 When we need your ears , you dont doubt them you tested them by using them , your taught them in experiments even with simple blind test when the work ask for it ... The final result need no public proof ... I dont need to give proof to advise people as i did for years here to study basic acoustics BEFORE upgrading ...( and basic acoustics is not few costly panels on a wall by the way )
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@scottwheel , Hmmm, so you are a BACCH guy eh? Well, that lets me know that you have an adventurous & rambunctious spirit (i.e., you like to explore a bit more than these timid purists...Timid’s the keyword here 😁). Well, I do have a BACCH in my 2 channel room. But, it’s kinda weak/flacid/quite lame in comparison to the latest acquisition for my multichannel room. Get the Sony STR-AZ7000ES 360 reality audio receiver...it is truly a breakthrough in audio. f you have difficult speakers, run its preouts into a chunky power amp. It is only around 3k though, i.e., petty change in comparison to what’s being charged for the crap sold by the diabolical dealers around here. Get 2 more speakers for a total of 4 speakers and prepare for audio nirvana like never before...It’s Sony! They have the engineering clout to make every high end manufacturer look like an imbecile at charity prices. You may sell your Bacch real quick. |
“There is a big difference between double blind test public protocol and simple blind test in private setting used in your own audio optimization process in an incremental number of steps , with all the time you want , all the repetition you wanted , with the music you pick which is well known to you ( for me albums i know for fifty years) and within an acoustic set of conditions you have put yourself together and which you know very well, all this in complete relaxation...”
I use single blind protocols for the majority of my shootouts. Works perfectly fine for their purpose. There is nothing about an ABX DBT that should inhibit a listener from identifying differences. There’s no time limit, no tricks and no agenda other than identifying audible differences as well as they can possibly be identified. There is no hidden agenda in a well designed ABX DBT. They are designed to maximize sensitivity to audible differences. You have A and you have B. You know exactly what A and B are. They are time synchronized and level matched and allow for quick switching. This allows listeners to listen to both as much as they want to identify the unique characteristics then the listener can quick switch to X to detect a shift or no shift. The listener can take as long as they want and focus on each individual characteristic of the sound. Wider sound stage? Easy to hear a shift with a quick switch. Deeper bass? Again easy to hear with a quick switch. ABX is not a weapon. It is a tool that informs us. |
“ Well, I do have a BACCH in my 2 channel room. But, it’s kinda weak/flacid/quite lame in comparison to the latest acquisition for my multichannel room.”
would you have a screen shot of the measurements? You might not be getting sufficient XTC. Is your room lively? “Get the Sony STR-AZ7000ES 360 reality audio receiver...it is truly a breakthrough in audio.” I am always open to new tech. So far I have been very unimpressed with Dolby Atmos. Particularly with upmixes. Not sure what any tech can do better than the BACCH and the BACCH works with the vast body of stereo recordings in existence. No up sampling. And when I test it for accuracy it is pretty much perfect |
Then we use the same ...And i never ask anybody here to be believed to pass a public double blind test and not even a private simple blind test ... Guess why ? 😁 Double blind protocols may be applied with company sponsors or with costlier products ... It make no sense for me in AN INCREMENTAL mostly acoustic process ... What is simple with a cable had no sense in a room with a cheap homemade device change ... Simple blind test is enough in private ... Any advocating of Double blind test complex protocol AGAINST any audiophile claims value is preposterous and ideological ... I hope you see it ? I dont need double blind test in official setting to test my cheap chinese modified Schumann generators location grid (each one on or off) and their ability to change my perception of sound ... Unvolontary blind test by accident and chance and voluntary blind tests were enough ... They happenned by forgotting to put some of them on or by conscious testing decision, then I did them and it work perfectly well ... It c would be impossible to organize that in any other room anyway , especially as a public show for the sake of what objectivist call "science" at the singular which never exist in any other way than a belief ......( dont suggest to me cartoon comic objection as the way the earth is no more seen as stationary )... Then i read many double blind test mandatory proposition as an ideological discussion about divided groups opinions about the efficiency of official or homemade products ...Because most of the times it will be a show , and a show impossible to entertain and organize anyway for the average guy as myself ... Simple blind test informal work totally well and are enough for each one of us in private ... The aural memory is not located in a specific place in the body or brain but is associated with multiple places and more than that on multiple levels and associated like a set of gestures to all the body and not only the separated brain and is associated to an acoustic context too where it work then optimally ... Then aural memory is more accessible in a routine habit in a very well known acoustic environment and in habitual relaxed circonstances ... Uprooting a listener is impeding the aural memory especially about debatable minute sound details separate meanings ... But multiple simple private blind tests in the opposite to a public singular double blind test protocol test are in my experience necessary and impose themselves without any ideological need , simply by the nature and in the context of a cumulative incremental step by step process of optimization ... Those who urge in a strong manner about Double public blind test are not in an optimization process which asked for a very long duration in months and years as mine was and with hundred of changes , they are in an ideological crusade... It is very easy to verify by the appeal of any "crusader" to "science" in the singular mode...i trust science only in the plural modes ...Not ideology ... Sound quality is a complex phenomenon which cannot be determined by double public blind test in any way, they for sure can be and had been used in official acoustic experiments context but a laqboratory is not a stage ... ... Not understanding that is not understanding what is sciences ... Simple private blind test are enough and done by almost everybody unvolontarily or not ...There is no real debate here only subjectivists against objectivists... I put my interest in acoustics with an s ...
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“ What is simple with a cable had no sense in a room with a cheap homemade device change ... Simple blind test is enough in private ... Any advocating of Double blind test complex protocol AGAINST any audiophile claims value is preposterous and ideological ... I hope you see it ?” no I don’t see it. There are programs that allow users to easily do ABX DBTs. And it’s not “against an audiophile’s claims.” ABX DBTs are not for or against any claims. |
I did not need these programs because i only use homemade solutions and i dont buy cables or costly tweaks or costly gear upgrade... It is way easier to use simple blind tests multiple time in the working optimization context way easier and more useful than ONE public stage show ... Anyway i see no valid reason to use that with my modified 10 bucks Schumann generators now for example ,save to convince you after a public test to buy some 😊...And anything is further from my intention than arguing with people about qualitative effect i gain from my device in specific constrainted acoustic context and pushing them toward expansive devices i ask for experiments in their private home at low cost ... I see it as a meaningless crusade asking for more for the average people out of a laboratory ... Sorry... You answered all my argument save the main one : I favor multiple simple blind tests in the same acoustical context and relax routine of the listener-tweaker and i dont see the need for most audiophile of anything more save for the scientific laboratory of the industry or for objectivist crusaders show ... You completely put aside my point about aural memory and routine behaviour in a known environment and put aside completely the difference between a step by step incremental process of multiple changes of parameters and devices in a known acoustical working environment and a public stage show about a singular minute change out of any known habitual working context ... Simple ... For aural memory and behaviour : https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-023-04675-8 Common sense dictate such observations i made ... Repeating your line as a preacher dont change common sense ...
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I can add to my point after the article i mention above about the aural memory this interesting french doctoral thesis titled : Acoustic characterization of relationships between https://theses.hal.science/tel-01105122/document There is no singular storage memory place in the body, it is not localized and not decoupled from the general set of gestures in our habit behaviour... We remember the best what we had learned to produce in our daily context or routine especially when associated with an emotional content experience ... ... Then the difference between a device and his absence for a meaningful evaluation of his effect need a context which is not alien to our daily routine and interpretation context to be valuable, the opposite of what ideological objectivist ask for systematically for any small difference which is beyond ridiculous ... It is why simple blind test in work specific stages in a personal journey work better than public double blind test on a stage theater ... I did my work , i dont ask other people to put a show to make a point... i trained my ears without the need to prove anything ... My acoustical musical experience is enough ...I dont sell products nor did i sell an ideology ...
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I agree with ya....I wouldn’t agree to any kind of blind whatever in some random dude’s closet with random tracks back to back. I have done blindtests in my room, where i know a) the resolution of this room is quite high, i.e. i’ve got the acoustic fields ACDA panels that deliver resolution levels a notch above anything i’ve heard (some of Dennis Foley’s proprietary stuff). Anyways, audible differences in cables are quite subtle above a certain quality threshold of build/layup/materials and you need a high resolution room to hone in on such subtleties. b) There are 2 instruments i’ve been playing for... coming up on 40 years. On specific tracks that i know very well which showcase these instruments, i am a highly skilled listener (understandably) for this purpose. Eitherway, I did it primarily just to see the look on a ASR cult member’s face and aid with his subsequent rehabilitation. There were 2 other dudes observing the whole spectacle and laughing hysterically when i hit the 20/20 times. 😁 ASR dude probably thought me a voodoo practitioner/grand wizard as he walked out in defeat. There is a YT channel called Alpha Audio where a couple of geeks do all kinds of listening tests, measurements, etc on different tweaks (fairly entertaining). I bet the ASR cult goes nuts when it sees that channel.
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“I agree with ya....I wouldn’t agree to any kind of blind whatever in some random dude’s closet with random tracks back to back. I have done blindtests in my room, where i know a) the resolution of this room is quite high, i.e. i’ve got the acoustic fields ACDA panels that deliver resolution levels a notch above anything i’ve heard (some of Dennis Foley’s proprietary stuff). Anyways, audible differences in cables are quite subtle above a certain quality threshold of build/layup/materials and you need a high resolution room to hone in on such subtleties. b) There are 2 instruments i’ve been playing for... coming up on 40 years. On specific tracks that i know very well which showcase these instruments, i am a highly skilled listener (understandably) for this purpose.”
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I am very surprised that nobody discover that i post from Antartica... It is the reason why my signal noise level is so good... But the vibration control here is mandatory on suddenly earthshaking flowing ice ... The acoustic room is very good between each whistling blizzard ... My only public for double blind test would be indifferent pinguins ... but when you are alone in what is like another planet you dont mind about "true science" ... You listen music happily deluded by sounds qualities nevermind their source ... ... By the way reverberation here is a new problem to solve because the speed of sound is slower in cold temperature in my large huge room ...... Good evening i must keep the stove running ..😊
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You are so right ... But when i asked for a public witness crowd for my double blind test enterprise for the sake of "true science" they go bersek and amok in all directions ... I think pinguin takes their science so seriously they dont give a shit about mine....
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“Totally agree here scottwheel ...I’m definitely thinking that nobody was thinking you were in China...though also agree it has no relevance to you finding all the previous responses except that one...” In China it was literally the next day. So when the reference was to a post I made on 11/30 that’s the date I checked. On my side it was 12/01. But really, is that what y’all want to talk about? What day are he word “dick” was used? Was it used as an adverb or a noun? |
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Cut and paste. What’s the date on my post? scottwheel85 posts “@scottwheel no one is piling on you. You just want to push how you feel on those who will not agree with you. Agree to disagree and move on.” where did I say anyone was piling on me? What happens if I don’t agree to disagree? 😎 but please don’t try to tell me what *I* want. It’s obnoxious. You want to challenge the merits of my position great. Do so using facts and logic. But ascribing fake motives to me is a bit of a dick move. |
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You misinterpreted my post because you are too captive of your blinders testing motto ... Nobody need a ABX DBT to tune a room or to modify a pair of speakers or headphone etc ... Must i use an ABX comparator to know if my electrical panel is better working for my audio component with or without my homemade plates ? I dont need it for comparing dac or amplifier because i dont upgrade anyway and even if i upgrade i will not need them ... If i had been able to tune 100 homemade Helmholtz resonators from few inches to 8 feet by ears and modify my room i can trust my ears to pick what suit me ... Go for electronical perfection , i myself prefer learning by experiments with my ears and i am happy with creativity my own way ... Your protocols suit best the cables collectors ... I am not one ...Then before objecting to someone try to read him right ... When someone tune a room he dont need ABX test , only some measures and his ears ... Or a DSP ...
And please learn to use the bloc quote just above the post window when using a quote for another post , it will be less fatiguing to read your post ...😁 it is more easy to figure out than the ABX protocol ...
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“You misinterpreted my post because you are too captive of your blinders testing motto ...” yeah whatever dude. Par for the course. “Nobody need a ABX DBT to tune a room or to modify a pair of speakers or headphone etc ...” and where did I say anyone needed ABX for room treatments or home brewed speaker mods? “Must i use an ABX comparator to know if my electrical panel is better working for my audio component with or without my homemade plates ?”
Do whatever the hell you want. All I said was ABX doesn’t have to be complex or difficult to do thanks to a number of ABX programs. That’s just information. What you or anybody else does with that information is up to you and them. |
I used simple blind test in my working acoustic process , and most people may or already use it ... But if we are not obsessed by our 35 amplifiers and 103 cables and 57 dac , we dont need to compare them in a double blind test .... Most audiophiles buy few cables and called it job done ... As i did to turn to more serious matter : acoustics ... Most audiophiles must tune their room and study acoustics a bit ...No need for double blind test for that ,... Most audiophiles must adress the electrical noise floor of the gear/room/house; no need for double blind test here ... Most audiophiles must treat their speakers and gear against vibrations and resonance , even their headphones ; no need for a double blind test here ... As you can see my post also is an information ... Then you can read it and reply to me : " ok i understand why most audiophiles as you dont need double blind test ...Simple blind test may be enough most of the times " ...😁😊 Do you catch it ?
Now why not explaining instead the BACCH filters you already own to people here who for the most part are ignorant of this revolution and inform them about a real matter instead of crusading for a trivial very well not so useful known matter : double blind test ... Just my two cent advice ...Choueiri is more important for audio than sellers of the ABX DBT toy ... true science is more interesting than stance about gear tastes testing ... Acoustics rule audio and the gear not the reverse ....
« The cherry never beat the cake, do you need a double blind test ? »--Groucho Marx 🤓
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@scottwheel I audited the BACCH extensively, had Choueiri do me the demos (talked to him a lot), etc before i bought it. I have it tweaked it to the point where it sounds better in my room than what i experienced with Edgar’s demo. BACCH is perhaps the best thing that ever happened with 2 channel stereo. But, if you have a big enough room to set up 4 serious speakers (that mean business) and can apply the same ethos that you would apply for a high-end hifi setup (i.e., no dinky li’l sht speakers and 16 of them in a room the size of a closet!!, i.e. the typical hometheater dude’s dumass setup for atmos), Sony’s 360 reality SSM is freaking nuts good, granted you are patient and took the time to study/set it up/calibrate it correctly. Most dudes write off object based audio as something inferior for movies because there’s a big learning curve, they set everything up incorrectly and call it quits. On the same note, Sony’s stuff is quite different from Atmos or Auro. It’s cheap to try it out too/nothing to lose there, i.e.,less than a 3rd or 1/2 the cost of BACCH for entry. |
You are right about the phone then i apologize for my remark ... 😑
You are right about this specfic thread question too too ...😑 My observation was there only to say that BACCH filters is a more interesting matter and more important than your debunking invitation to solve costly cables differences obsession among audiophile ...
For me audio is mainly and primarily about acoustics not about price tag...Then not about double blind test either ...More about acoustics parameters as in the BACCH filters case and real revolution .. You are way more well placed than me to spoke about it if you mind about people here and mind about giving them a real important information instead of a patronizing song ...... I guess it is the case for you too acoustics matter the most , if i put aside your double blind test protocol insistance which insistance is also partaken by the objectivist crowd ...Hence the negative reaction against you from people who dont want to be patronized , nevermind if they are wrong or right about their cables tasting with or without double blind tests ... Hate come from ignorance...There is nothing else to say about hate ... 😊 |
“My observation was there only to say that BACCH filters is a more interesting matter and more important than your debunking invitation to solve costly cables differences obsession among audiophile ...” Go back to my original post in this thread. The ONLY thing I was trying to debunk were the cliche mischaracterizations of audiophiles that accept what science tells us about the audibility of certain controversial elements of high end audio. It’s not jealousy, it’s not a lack of experience, it’s not a lack of “resolution” in my system or any of the other made up reasons. Clearly that original post started a fire here. now what more would you like me to say about the BACCH that I haven’t already said? I am happy to talk about that! |