I’m sure such a device exists. The problem is you don’t read about them because they’re not of much interest to audiophiles.
Why hasnt a turntable manufacturer produced a table with automatic tonearm return/shutoff?
I'm listening to my old Technics 1700 turntable, which has the tonearm return/ shutoff mechanism. It's one of the reasons I don't upgrade. The idea that you have to get up to retrieve the cartridge and turn off the machine makes little sense when the technology has been there for years. I know the issue of the mechanism introducing sound into the table, but it seems to me that the mechanism can be isolated and kept off until the record ends. What gives?
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When I was a young man this was an important issue for me. So much so that it swayed me to buy a Rabco SL-8E arm when that was considered state of the art. It did lift at the end of play I'll give it that much. I also bought a Mitsubishi EC-1, which is still kicking I believe. I gifted it to a starving college student a few years ago. I'm not sure why or when this feature stopped being important to me. Probably the CD introduction did it. When I just want to kick back with music as a back drop like right now, I just pop in a CD. When serious listening is the priority then needing an automatic arm is not necessary or even desirable quite frankly. |
“The convenience is substantial” only if your listening session is limited to one side of one LP. Otherwise you’re going to get up anyway either to play the second side or a different LP. The stylus riding in the runout grooves is not harmed if you don’t immediately lift the tonearm and shut off the platter rotation. |
@kavakat1 I don't see a substantial convenience or really any convenience of substance. When a record ends I cue the arm and return it to the arm rest. No big deal. It takes all of two seconds or so. OTOH: adding a mechanism and logic to the turntable for auto-return of the arm just increases cost unnecessarily, and adds moving parts that can resonate, vibrate and introduce unwanted noise into the system. The added complexity just isn't worth it. And it's not going to damage your stylus if it plays the runout groove for a bit until you get up and cue the arm. |
Seems to me the mere existence of the Little Fwend and vs other tonearm lifters reflects a problem that needs solving. I’m just saying I’m surprised such mechanisms are not incorporated into the initial design of high end turntables along with auto return and shut off. Some people just don’t b like getting up every 20 minutes when the side playing is over. It’s hard to get off the ground for some of us😎 |
I only use a tonearm lifter (I use the Audio Technica version which is much less expensive than the little fwend and does precisely the same thing) because the noise at the runout groove is too jarring after the music stops playing. Also, I would never leave a record on the platter once it's done playing, so what benefit would there be to this scenario? Of course, this is all at a spry 56 years and I might well feel differently when and if I'm less mobile. |
I agree that it can happen that you forget to turn off the tt but It is rare. The only reason it ever happened to me was that I have a Q-up on mine and it lifts the arm at the end so once I got distracted and forgot to shut down. All those mechanical conveniences would compromise the sonics and reliability so I take my chances. cheers! |
I don’t see any impediment to engineering a high quality table with automatic or semi automatic features. Perhaps such tables are out there, but they are not recognized as high end. That suggests that the “reason” has to do with us—the consumers. If there were demand for high end tables with such features, manufacturers would build them. But, it is the buyers who baulk at paying a lot for such tables because the buyer perceives such features to not be consistent with high end. |
By extension, why are the spindle stackers no longer made? You could buy two copies of the record, put one on with A side up, second with B side up, and you can play both sides without getting up. And with each additional record, the tone arm is lifted to maintain correct VTA. More seriously, there is a reason why automatic TTs are only found near entry level. The vast majority who are into vinyl embrace the inconvenience as a factor of appeal and value SQ higher than convenience. If it is that much of an issue, I suggest to stick to digital library of some sort, maybe CDs. Additionally, once you get into more obscure vinyl, auto-TTs are more of a hindrance than a help. Say 33 rpm 7" or records with actual sound in runout. I have both. |
The spindle stackers were terrible because the records would get scratched when one dropped on another. as others have said, I think there are some decent semi automatic tables, but all that I know of that claim to be high-end are manual. I don’t mind getting up to turn over the record, but old men, at least this one, tend to fall asleep, listening to music and that’s a problem the little fwend worked about half the time for me, but that likely had more to do with my ineptitude than the product |
Personally, I prefer to have as few things in my turntable that can vibrate and adversely affect the sound - I also remove the dust cover when playing records - plus, if it was a big deal for me to have automatic turnoff and return, I'd listen to CD's or stream instead. But I remember the old spindle stacker days when I was a teenager. I also often didn't bother putting records back in their covers back then! |
@kavakat1, several features have changed/evolved(!) over the years. Tone controls were common into the '70s but became rare after that, except on receivers which were more of a consumer product rather than audio hobbyist. Speakers once commonly had bass and/or treble switches to adjust other than flat. And yes, into the '70s automatic turntables (start up and shut off) were common. But about that time reviewers (led by J Gordon Holt, then Harry Pearson) became more critical of component performance and recommended those with fewer features which were considered detrimental to "pure sonics". Manufacturers of higher quality components followed this criticism. This is not to say all hobbyists wanted to eliminate these features. Some continue to call for their return, you included.
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Back in the day I had a Dual 1219 that stacked records and multi record sets were generally set up for stacking. Record 1 had side a and d, and record 2 had side c and d, for example. Operas were more complicated. ;-) I used the stacking feature at that time, still have all those records. No harm came to them. So the assumption that record stacking harms records is not axiomatic. If I had a lot of old multi-record sets that were configured that way, and had a penchant for listening to them with any frequency, I would not hesitate to acquire and happily use a changer. Both Dual and Miracord made good ones. I know because I set up and cared for a lot of them for my happy customers. With that said I can't imagine that tooling up to manufacture such a product today would pay dividends. |
@billstevenson I had that turntable, too! I think I used the multi spindle a few times but never took to it. Got a lot of mileage out of that old Dual. |
@billstevenson ..."I used the stacking feature at that time, still have all those records." I had a number of record players that stacked and dropped between the mid- 1950s and 1970. All of them sounded terrible in comparison to even the most basic high end turntable. But, yes, they were convenient. Well, I’ll be... there are some on the market... as if it is a new idea.
https://www.amazon.com/Pro-Ject-A1-Automatic-pre-Adjusted-switchable/dp/B09RKQGGWL
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why not? very low priority in terms of actual use. most serious vinyl users would be afraid of other compromises introduced by an unneeded complicated feature. rather put their money on things making the performance better. and the manual process is part of the muscle memory and ritual associated with vinyl playback. so cultural headwind to have it be something valued. |
@pryso - Tone controls have come back relatively recently; you see them on quite a few newer, very expensive, high end preamps and integrateds, and they can be completely removed from the circuitry if they're not to be used. Usually just bass and treble, but I've seen some that have a 'Mid' adjustment, too. |
I was going to suggest the ability to stack multiple LPs on top of each other and have them drop when the prior one has finished. But I won't, because then it would have to adjust the VTA. I am, of course, joking, because the record clamp issues would be tough to solve. No I am not serious. It pisses me off that pressings from the 60's and 70's often have sides 1&4 on one disk and 2&3 on the other - or even worse 1&3 and 2&4. And it gets really crazy with multi disk opera LP sets.
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Re tone controls: many DACs have multiple filters and choices of sample rate conversion or DSD conversion. And we do choose our interconnects and roll tubes to get the sound we want. I remember my British Quad 33 preamp from the early 70's had bass, treble and slope controls and I think the current ones do also. |
Currently in production are fully automatic turntables from Projct, Dual and Thorens. There are semiautomatic or to lift/shut by Music Hall, Teac and Technics. I am an infrequent vinyl listener so I stick to vintage auto-return tablets that don’t require significant repairs beyond DIY. I am using a restomod Philips AF877 with some upgrades. Love the auto-return. |
"Seems to me the mere existence of the Little Fwend and vs other tonearm lifters reflects a problem that needs solving. I’m just saying I’m surprised such mechanisms are not incorporated into the initial design of high end turntables along with auto return and shut off." "I think Ferrari should install roof boxes on all their cars. It seems like the mere existence of third-party roof boxes reflects a problem that needs solving. I'm surprised that roof boxes are not incorporated on all Ferraris. Not least because I want one." |
Nothing gets the heart rate up like hearing the same record play when you have stacked records on top. That means a new record did not drop and is probably barely hanging on waiting to sandwich the cartridge between the two records. When a record does drop properly there is no scratching or rubbing between the grooved part of the record because they don’t touch; there is a raised bead on the edge of the record and the center of the record is thicker than the playing surface. However, the spindle hole does become larger over time because the record spins while the spindle is fixed so the rubbing slowly reams out the hole. |
Do you have an example of that, and why would it even be done that way? |
JVC made a high-end DD table that solved all the issues people worry about regarding SQ and automation - the QL-A7. It was equal to or better than the offerings from Technics and Denon (except it lacked the very cool Denon plinths). JVC designed the table so there was no mechanism to interfere with the tonearm's performance while playing the record, and nothing to service. The JVC tonearms were also longer than most, with lower tracking error to better support cartridges using the then new Shibata stylus shape, required to decode CD-4 Quad recordings, and which was then as now, very sensitive to tracking error. You may want to consider finding a good used or rebuilt QL-A7. |
If you can spring $300,000 or so for a Wilson Benesch Table One, you will get lots of remote-control features including start and stop. You will be able to adjust the VTA from your armchair, and remotely adjust the rotational speed in 100ths of an rpm. To achieve this, it comes with a dedicated network.
No wonder some authorities think it is a bargain! |
I worked at a well-known U.S. turntable manufacturer for a few years. (A) there was shockingly little demand/ask for it, (2) and for those that wanted it, we’d add an AudioTechnica 6006 or Tru-Lift or similar add-on unit. We even carried them at the factory. I can count (maybe on one hand) the number of them I sold with new tables in a few years’ time. And, that’s just the “lift” — no auto-shutoff. So, from an engineering perspective, near-zero demand = a feature that’s not worth the effort (as far as being integral to the table). It’s really just that simple. It’s always been a staple of the Japanese tables (and some others) but never truly caught on with U.S. audiophiles. I literally had the privilege of speaking at length with thousands of audiophiles about their analog systems, and it was ever-so-rare that anyone would ever bring it up. Jim |
The old record players played a stack of records automatically. I had a 45 rpm record player in my hot rod that played a stack too , only skipped on big bumps. Later on I got a Thorens player with a Rabco arm which was some improvement. The first time I heard a c.d. I sold the record player and never looked back. Nowadays I have a high end SACD one bit player. In my opinion no record can hold a candle to it. I don't get the record thing but whatever floats your boat. |
Would that argument not also apply to lowering devices, which are attached to the arm base? Surely end-of-side can be detected in a non-contact way, for example by interrupting a light beam. These days, even toasters have little motors to raise the crumpets! I sometimes wish I had something that just raised the arm from the run-out groove. If a stylus has say 400 hours life, I'd rather keep it for playing music. Happy for the table to still run
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I took one look at the Bang & Olufsen Beogram 4004 in 1978 and knew I had to own it. I loved the appearance and I loved the tangential tracking tonearm. But through all the years I owned it I was subtly reminded that it wasn’t an audiophile’s turntable.. So in 2013 I succumbed to the subtle pressure of my fellow audiophiles and I bought a Rega RP40 Anniversary Edition Turntable and an Audio Note phono stage and I had to get used to carefully putting down the tonearm and getting up to lift it when the recording had finished. I guess you could say I was completely spoiled because I so hated having to do that. In 2022 I brought out my old Beogram. 4004 and had it completely restored by Beolover and I’m back to being happy playing vinyl again. And I sold my Rega and Audio Note with zero regrets. |
