It's too bad that a good home hi fi set up can & often does sound better than many live rock concerts. Small venues (less than about 400) can still sound really good but the larger venues rarely do; very hard, upper midrange peaky, boomy loose bass & shrill highs. This is the worst example of what the solid state / horn combo can do if poorly done.
IMO, here's the reason & when I was in pro sound reinforcement, this wasn't the case. The use almost universal use now of arrays from just maybe 6 speakers to upwards of 20 powered by high powered, well built, very reliable but sound crappy class D amps. The theory of the array is to try to create the same sound balance for every seat in an arena w/ minimal "sweet spots". The benefits of the pro class D amps are obvious but sacrifice a lot. Almost Every instrument in a band is now run through this stupidly loud, hard as hell sound system & the beautiful magic of stacked Marshalls or Fender tube powered amps is lost.
I saw the Grateful Dead many times in the 70's, never w/ their short lived, giant "wall of sound" system ,but w/ a very good one that included about 30 Macintosh 2300 amps, & piles of Altec & JBL speakers. The sound was truly dynamic, meaning loud only when it was supposed to be & not continually, crisp, clean & beautiful. It was the same w/ many great shows I saw at Radio City Music Hall in NYC back then w/ many great bands. If you had a good seat, fantastic sound & if not it was ok. Today, its pretty bad in any seat but arenas are still filled so no one seems to care.
I guess the sound today of rock concerts is on par w/ the music itself...... loud, bland, boring & bordering on unlistenable.
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Having actually done live sound for large venues I can tell you that at best it is extremely difficult, trying to work with the acoustics of the venue, the artists (onstage monitors are a completely different mix with different objectives from the house mix), the road managers who love to backseat drive the mix, often with little or no regard for overall sound quality. Add to that most sound guys have little or no formal training in sound reinforcement, architectural acoustics, or even basic listening. There are notable exceptions, many already mentioned, the last gig I helped produce was in the chapel at Bastyr University outside Seattle. We hired Morgan Sound for the job, and when they learned the venue, they assigned one of their 'A' crews. Bastyr Chapel is long, narrow, tall and very reverberant. It required 4 speaker sets, the second set delayed about 60 msec to account for the distance from the primaries. They pulse tested the rig to set the delay, and only eq'd using the singer's voices to get a natural sound. The result was exceptional. These guys were pros. More recently I heard the Mavericks, and their opening act sound was hideous, both muddy and harsh, basically a mess. The mixer clearly had no idea what they were doing. The Mavericks were a revelation, same gear, same venue, different hands on the controls. controls. They sounded great, and the volume was appropriate.
Thevbest recorded example of how tough live sound can be is the the track "Stay" from Jackson Brown's " Running on Empty". At one point you can clearly hear the system being pushed hard by the performance and the vocals start into feedback, only to be caught just in time by the monitor mixer and pulled back, into control. Believe me, because the show was being recorded, the mixer saved himself an uncomfortable post-show moment, and maybe even got a thanks for that. The result on the record is the the band, the vocals, and the system all giving everything they have for the music, and it's there for all to hear. Some days it just all comes together like that.
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After attending a couple of terrible sounding shows at an outdoor venue in San Antonio, I swore I'd never attend another show there. That is until Steely Dan was booked. I figured if their sound guy couldn't tame the sonic issues there, then no one could.
Sure enough, it only took him about 5 songs into the opening act (Michael McDonald) for Steely Dan's sound guy to dial in the sound. So, as has been mentioned numerous times, the sound guy has a huge influence on the issue of good or bad sound.
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@dpop Totally agree, drives me nuts!. Really crazy how audience behavior has changed over the decades. This as it pertained to rock concerts and personal experience. Early 70's audiences rather reverential in that they were totally engaged with performance, quiet and even sitting in their seats with exception of encores. This behavior was common at indoor venues, outdoor or festival audiences far more rowdy. Over time audience participation increased, I really think Peter Frampton's Come Alive release exacerbated the audience as participant in performance thing, Springsteen certainly added to it.
As far as recent sound quality at shows, I've seen Railroad Earth, Beach House and War On Drugs at same local venue, Railroad Earth best of three. This theatre has pretty bad room acoustics and house sound reinforcement guys have no idea, louder and louder better for them. Railroad Earth saved by being more acoustic based band. Saw Kraftwerk recently at another venue, much better room acoustics here and house sound reinforcement guys controlled volume much better.
The problem largely lies with house sound guys and equipment, you learn some venues never produce good sound. In order to get good sound, very high likelihood band has to have their own sound guys, equipment, and how many bands have the resources or even care about good sound quality to do that.
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I'm not a big fan of the audience singing every song either. The first time this really bothered me was at a Tim McGraw show about 15 years ago. I think every audience member sang every song, and very loudly too. Guess what, I didn't pay to hear the *audience* sing these songs, I paid to hear the *artist* sing these songs. If that's now the norm, see ya later.
Happy I saw Pink Floyd throughout the years on two different outdoor stadium tours. Sound quality always seemed to be perfect. I know for sure that one of those tours supported a quad sound system, and it sounded excellent. I saw Christine McVie when she was touring for her 1984 solo album. It was at a venue that was noted for symphony performances, and not only was Christine's performance stunning, but the sound quality was outstanding. I'll never forget it.
I will also mention a few live recordings that I think incorporate the venue well - Chicago Live at Carnegie Hall, and Atlanta Rhythm Section's Are You Ready.
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@barts + 1 - Yeah, I saw/heard that 'Wall of Sound' a couple of times, and Owsley was doing their sound from before that, almost as far back as their beginning. He was brilliant, and the Grateful Dead live sound quality continued on well past Owsley until the end. They always had serious sound systems and sound crews.
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It has been a long time since I went to a big concert and ended up at Red Rocks and seeing The War On Drugs and support this week. The sound was interesting. Lots of washy echo, clear yet layered guitars, keyboard synths and a bass so firm my mid chest vibrated (and I kept telling myself to buy a subwoofer). It sounded for all its loudness completely involving and visceral. The live impact was huge and that idiot audiophile thought that my system should capture it an obvious pipe dream, unless I want to build a room the size of a hall and put a PA system in place! I was with another audiophile and we both said how much we had missed such gigs. In the end the sound does suck but that’s not why you go. The sheer presence, volume and of being there made the band so much better than their recordings and that musical immediacy far outweighs pristine HiFi sound. Sure smaller venues or better rooms sound a lot more HiFi and artists with more complex and intimate sounds suit those venues well. But for a rock concert with a rock band, then that’s different. In the end recorded music and gigs are very different experiences and long may it remain so.
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@larsman +1
Ahhh...the good old Owsley Stanley "Wall of Sound" days. That was by far the best outdoor sound I've ever heard. You could actually use audiophile terms to describe it.
OTOH the worst was McCartney at Giants stadium which was so loud all the lighting fixtures were vibrating/buzzing loudly.
Regards,
barts
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I’m a decades long pro musician (basically retired now) and small venue live sound mixer. Most people have absolutely no idea how modern sound systems work, including claims of "electronic manipulation." Huh? You mean EQ? The mains mixer has all the control, and it’s up to that person to make things sound good. Go to a concert at the Berkeley Music Hall and see things done right...I avoid large shows mostly because of dumb crowds and bad sound, but sometimes we get invited to something like a few years ago seeing Steely Dan (with Becker) with Elvis Costello opening at some gigantic outdoor thing in Boston...sounded great. Paul Simon and Sting at the Garden from a "box" sounded great...Jeff Beck some years ago at the House of Blues with perfectly balanced sound. So hey...good things CAN happen. Talked into going to the last day of the Newport Folk Festival a while back and the sound people must have been asleep...inexcusably bad sound at a legendary show...Gillian Welch played her first couple of songs, and note these guys use 3 mics or something, and she had to ask the sound people to turn on the guitar mic of the brilliant David Rawlings...man...I could go on and on and on...wait...I just did.
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A lot has to do with who is running the mixing boards I have heard 3 bands at one concert and the speaker setup used and most important the mixer board to set the
tine ,i have seen some have a person on the floor and relaying , and others juston stage what they think is best, mixing is an art in itself .
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I was once at a concert by the Cars, on the Panorama tour, and of all bands, this was one of the loudest I'd ever heard - the PA was blowing the hair on my head and punching me in the gut and blasting my ears!! Yes, Grand Funk did that once to me in the early 70's, but this was the CARS!
But I think a lot is down to the sound crew - there are some venues I've been at a great many times, and most bands sound excellent, but a few bands sound as atrocious as can be in the same venue.
But then there are bands like the Grateful Dead who always put big, big emphasis on sound, back to the days when Owsley Stanley was their extremely innovative sound man. I've heard the Dead sound superb in all kinds of venues, inside and outdoors.
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I never thought that it would happen, but I LEFT an Elton John concert right at the beginning! Loud was not word for it. Jet engine loud was a better description. I could feel the MIDRANGE bouncing off the wall. Too bad.
Went to a YES concert many years ago. It was nearly perfect in spite of the fact the concert was at a multipurpose venue. Never a good sign.
Last concert was a cover band for Led Zep. Completely incredible, and not damaging. High level of talent there. Was very surprised.
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The larger the venue is, the worse it will probably sound. When you add in the stratospheric prices at most of the larger venues, this is not a good mix.
Learn where the good sounding venues are in your area and support them. In the past year I've seen King Crimson, The Ocean Blue, Gang of Four, Steve Hackett, Joe Jackson, China Crisis and Norah Jones. All of them were in good sounding venues and the cumulative ticket price of those shows was far less than what a ticket would have cost me to see Elton John or Van Morrison when they recently passed thru town
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Most of the concerts I go to I am wearing ear plugs these days, no need to aggravate tinnitus, I go for the show not the sound quality which is poor +90% of the time especially in the large venues. No doubt there are exceptions
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Probably because it doesn't always suck. I've been to hundreds of rock concerts and some have had absolutely pristine sound, like hearing it on a great hi-fi system. And sure, plenty sound horrible, too. Venue, sound crew, lots of reasons...
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Just saw Brandi Carlile at Red Rocks and the sound was terrible. Far, far too loud and just awful. In addition, so many people around us just talked loudly throughout the entire concert!
This has been my experience over the last few years without exception. My wife and I have decided we will no longer attend concerts at large venues as the experience is no longer enjoyable.
Saw both Rickie Lee Jones and Aimee Mann at smaller theatre venues and really enjoyed those concerts.
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Never sit close to the stage as it is really loud. I went to a Deep Purple concert in 73 and was sitting second row with the left speaker almost in my face. My ears rang for over a week. I believe that was the beginning of my hearing loss. After that, I always brought ear plugs with me to concerts.
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I can’t tell you how many terrible sounding concerts I have been to.
I stopped going to amplified concerts over twenty years ago. I had to put paper in my ears to prevent hearing damage. I still had access through conferences I attended every year… I would stuff napkins in my ear… seldom have i lasted more than one or two tunes.
I have been to the Orange County Conference center, Orlando at least a dozen times. It sounded pretty good once.
Generally too loud, difficult acoustics, electronics built more for volume versus quality, In house audio engineer… well, I don’t know what is wrong with them. I am sure one could come up with a half dozen more.
Even twenty five years ago my system sounded much better than I could hear at a concert. Also, I hate fighting to claim seats.
However, I have had season tickets to the symphony for over ten years. Reserved seats on the aisle, front and center. From my seat if a violin soloist is playing a Stradivarius it takes me a couple notes to be able to tell. The sound hole of the violin is pointed at my seat. This also helped me calibrate my hearing for choosing electronics. Has been one of the most positive influences in audio for me.
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@mtbiker29 Thanks for posting that a friend and I were just talking the other night about the Sphere Center about to open in Vegas and whether Phish would play there vs the MGM.
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Just go there and enjoy every moment of it.
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One big mistake at the pro level is to think that electronic manipulation of the actual room acoustical problems will somehow fix them.
Never has, never will. Mitigate to some small degree, yes. but turn it around and make for a ’higher quality in the same scenario than without electronic manipulation?’ No.
They tell you to fix the room (acoustics) first, for some very important fundamental reasons and no amount of electronic measurement and subsequent purely electronic manipulation will ever change that. Mitigate some of the greater issues, with regard to our immediate realization/sensitivity of said problems? Yes. But... fix? No, not at all.
Electronic manipulation of acoustics is an ill conceived badly applied sometimes half-trick pony, at best.
the modern version of pro sound has this electronic manipulation of concert and venue acoustics ’repair and/or mitigation’ as being quite prominent, it has ’gone mainstream’.
so now we have the combined problem of ’overpowering the room with volume/power’ which was the prior norm before the extreme levels of digitization that are currently in use (in fix attempts), combined with electronic manipulation fixes.
Just...Great. The worst of both worlds.
I guess they never got the memo on acoustics as good acoustics is more difficult to achieve. It’s probably that the money and the ease of the idea (lazy or incapable, or some combination thereof) was just too darned appealing.
"Thinking is difficult, therefore let the herd pronounce judgment!" ~Carl Jung. Or, as said in Monty Python.. "Very small rocks!"
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I have to disagree with the central premise of this thread, and kindly suggest that some bands should not play some venues. I saw My Morning Jacket this summer at a small outdoor theater in Dillon CO. The sound was impressive beyond belief. I do station myself as close to the mix board as possible, and in this case was directly to the right of it. I also saw Spiritualized recently at a small indoor venue in Chicago and the sound there again was very good. GA show, make sure you're not under any overhangs or balconies for an indoor show and you're in good shape.
If we are talking repurposed basketball arenas with assigned seats then yeah, not going to be the best experience. This technology though is worth keeping an eye on....I thought U2 dabbled in it prior.
Last thing I'll add is some people want the live experience to sound exactly like the record. F that.....to me the live experience is about how well the band adapts, evolves and presents that song in this new venue outside the studio....that's the true test.
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Most venues are multi- purpose. I find older venues sound worse. Heavy metal is difficult to mix, Saw Iron Maiden on their last tour and sound was great even with a loud crowd. Saw Judas priest and it was not near as good. After touring 40 to 50 years Iron Maiden has it perfected.
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Been to plenty of rock concerts in my years. I no longer attend many of them, as they're way overpriced these days (for my budget), and yeah, IMO, with all of the latest fancy sound gear that's out these days, I'll chime in also saying that I think 95% of the time the sound is not to my liking. Summerfest in Milwaukee WI comes to mind. Plenty of outdoor stages where you can walk from one to the other. Almost all of the time the subs are overly emphasized, and the rest of the mix is muddy. I've thought this numerous times when being there. I happened to see Nick Lowe in the past few years at another location, and my friend and I both thought the sound was horrible, so much so, we didn't even stick around for the whole show. I happened to be at a State Fair this summer and heard a stage where a 12 piece big band was playing along with dancers and singers (lots of wireless mics for the singers dancing around). There was probably a crowd of 1,000 that was there for this performance. The sound was absolutely perfect and amazing. Spectral balance and loudness level was just right (IMO). Sometimes, for my taste, some get it right, although these days, I'm most times much happier simply enjoying my system at home.
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I don't go to rock concerts for sound quality it just needs to be loud. And I've found MSG to be a good sounding venue.
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WAY too loud. That is my major complaint. I could deal with the distortion if it was at 90 db or less. Plus, if was less loud the distortion would drop considerably. We see concerts that are not "rock" and big venues and they are amazing and very clear.
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I remember I went to a "YELLOWJACKETS" concert at the Berklee performance center in Boston 88. They had just released their album "Four Corners". The back up artist was Larry Carlton who played lead guitar on Kid Charlemagne. He had his set up SOO loud it hurt my ears so rather than get a ringing too early in the show I sat there mid 10th row with my fingers in my ears throughout his entire set. His volume just overloaded the hall. The Yellowjackets on the other hand, had their volume set at a lower volume. The drummer was on the back of the stage left side at a 45 dgree angle facing the mid hall with a oriental rug under his drumset, Which I believe helped to soften the kickdrum's reverberation off of the stage and into the hall. All in all the sound was much more evenly balanced. And yes their performance was I thought very close to the recording.
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"In the 70’s I sat 5th row for ZZ Top. Loud AND sweet.
Or maybe it was the Mad Dog 2020."
I bet you still have a thumpin' headache...
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What's there to fix. Go to concert, look around, masses loving it, you, the audiophile cringing, too bad for you. Live rock concerts and audiophiles hardly ever mix well.
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Agree with above, the musicians are also deaf I went to see Carl Palmer at a small venue and he kept ordering the volume to be increased until it was painful and drove folks out, the same with Mick Taylor and also The Other Ones.
The House of Blues when in Cambridge was the same concert going should be enjoyable.
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Because they think that louder is better. Gone are the days of making good sound in any venue, The Dead and ELP come to mind for QC.
By now many soundmen are deaf above 5kHz.
In the 70’s I sat 5th row for ZZ Top. Loud AND sweet.
Or maybe it was the Mad Dog 2020.
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Especially since they have had Rock Concerts for decades now and all the money spent, you would think they could do a better job.
ozzy
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