Why does rock concert sound suck?
I have been to two rock concert in the past year : Brit Floyd in Bridgeport CT and Eric Clapton at Madison Square Garden, NYC (last Monday)
For Brit Floyd I was about 40 feet form the stage and treble end was an ear-splitting distorted sound - the soprano solo on Dark Side of the Moon sounded like a chain saw running at 5x speed.
For Eric Clapton I was sitting at floor level about 20 rows behind the mixing desk - i.e., the opposite end from the stage. In this case the high top end was not so distorted, but the voices were still very harsh - seemingly a massive response peak at ~1500hz. Imagine AM radio with the treble turned up 20db.
I knew a lot of the words form the songs ahead of time of course, and just about recognized them, but otherwise the lyrics were unintelligible. The only exceptions were when he sang a quieter song - e.g., “Tears in Heaven” . Clapton moved back from the mic rather than place his mouth right next to it. Then the sound was quite listenable .
Of course managing the acoustics in such a big venue is no doubt a challenge — but does it have to be this bad?
In the last 30 years the trend for sound men /engineers think loudness and extreme bottom end are more important than clarity and quality of sound. The large venues are the worst and we’re paying premium price for tickets to this sonic wreck. I too am very picky about the venue for future live performances Good luck Willy-T |
I recently went to see Echo and the Bunnymen at the Fox theater in Oakland CA. What a disastrous experience. I knew I was in trouble the moment the opening act started playing. My seat vibrated along with my chest. I had to step out for a while. Echo and the Bunnymen sounded the same. Music?? NO.It was nothing more than loud noise. Ear plugs are in no way a solution. I walked out after the 4th song. If I thought I could be reimbursed for the ticket price and for pain and suffering I'd sue. I was both very disappointed and pissed off. |
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Great topic, I have been to dozens of shows and thought the same. One puzzle was Pitchfork where a band that should sound good - Spiritualized I had to put in the earplugs (recommended) that tame the high end. Rock also seems mixed in mono, but all is in the hands of the soundboard. That day Noname and Earl Sweatshirt, however, both sounded sublime. One live and one DJ mix but I think they just had the right soundboard people. I also experienced a real Jamaican Soundsystem in Porto, that was the greatest sound ever (look it up, a mountain of speakers all specially tuned). Sheer power, but not really loud. You could stand right next to the speakers and they would suck the air in and out of your lungs. Sheer bliss, but rarely went over 88db. I measured it. Lots of bass though and super tight bass which is likely why big venues suck for way too much bass cancellation. This was outdoors btw which probably helped. Also a clue. If anyone came near, they started dancing. Couldn’t help it. In big concerts, watch. No dancing, normally the sound just isn’t groovy. |
Good topic. I say it is the sound board person. I attended an outdoor concert a couple of years ago. Cheap Trick, Heart, Joan Jett. Sat dead center about 20 rows back. Cheap Trick was a total mess--could hear NO vocals, the guitars were a smear, and the bass was non musical, only gut-thumping. Then came Joan. PERFECT sound mix, dynamic range, was like listening to the recordings live. Then came Heart, one of my fav bands. Again, a total mess--vocals, which are obviously their strong suit, were not intelligible, the band mix was terrible, and there was no definition of the instruments, just a wall of loud noise. SAME PA system, SAME board, terrible mixing. Saw Steve Miller band a couple of years ago indoors. SUPERB sound. Went to an indoor concert not long after for a famous female vocalist. HORRIBLE sound, no vocals that could be distinguished, and a terrible mix of the band. I would agree that the sound board person is at fault. I refuse to attend any more live concerts, and I have seen almost everyone since 1962--I keep the ticket stubs and remember them. Good ones--Beatles outdoors, Stones both inside and out, Hendrix indoors twice, etc,. etc., etc. Even the Dick Clark Caravan of stars outdoors in Raleigh in 1964 was excellent with over a dozen DIFFERENT acts including Gene Pitney and the Supremes--totally different sounds. Great sound from equipment that was NOT digital or advanced. |
Ok where to start the place where the show is yes ,absolutely, but also the sound engineer. Where you seat is also counts depending if its indoors or out doors The last shows I have seen 2 were at Jones Beach and outdoor arena. I saw the Outlaws and Lynard Skynyrd we were standing at the VIP bar which is off to the side and like 12 rows from the stage.Sounded Great.Saw Chicago there was just to the side of the stage and 10 rows back sounded Great.But I saw Deep Purple and Alice Cooper there in 2019 was upstairs in front row.Alice was good sounding, Deep Purple sound terrible, the lead singer voice was to low you couldn't hear him,so we left,that had to be the engineer fault.At Bridge port another smaller outdoor place sat 9th down just off center,LoverBoy,REO Speed wagon,Styxs all sounded good,loud but good.The loudest I can remember was Robin trower at the Paramount in Huntington NY,indoor place old movie theather.Sat upstairs but was very close to the stage and he blew,my ears out.OMG.Should of had earplugs.But way back in 1972csaw YES,King Crimson and the stars were Procol Harum,and sat 8th row and they were Loud then you too the MTA subway home and if you couldn't hear then it was a great show I was 20 back then now I'm 70.Saw Santana at the Fillmore East I'm 1970 just after Woodstock and they were loud.but sounded great.Saw Elton John at MSG in 1976 sat right behind the stage sound was good.Saw David Bowie there Diamond Dogs tour sound was Good.ELP sound GOOD sat about 24 rows from the stage.Saw Kiss in 1972 they just started at a small club in Sunnyside, Queens NY they were loud and almost burned the place down.Saw them at the old Palladium on 14 st NYC.Sat in balcony they were,loud abs felt the heat from Gene's flames ,lol.Saw Allmans Brothers there in 1972 and they sounded great 12 row back.i saw alot of shows there all over the place sound was always good.But I say it's the Sound Engineer that makes the biggest adjustments. |
I saw the Stones on that same ’81 tour in Dallas and I was very let down by the poor performance... it was not a strong show. Later in ’88 or 89 I saw them on the Steel Wheels tour in Cleveland, and that was a great show, and the sound was good too... in Cleveland Stadium! I saw The Who and Neil Young at that venue I think '89 and the sound in that stadium for both of those bands was good, at least where I was sitting. I think maybe ’81 the Stones were too coked up to care, and they came off as a bunch of posers. I passed on their most recent tour, though, because ticket prices made me sick... |
@booman - Porcupine Tree was just here in San Francisco on Wednesday night; a bunch of my friends went but I didn't, as I'm still not going to concerts this year for health reasons. I've seen P.T. and S.W. every other time they've come to town, though and yes, superb sound!! |
1981, Pontiac Silverdome (with it’s giant balloon of a roof). Iggy Pop / Santana / Rolling Stones Santana blew the roof off the place and actually managed to sound good, in that stadium. I’ve seen Santana literally dozens of times since about 1980 and he has always had some of the best live sound of any "rock" show I’ve seen. But managing to pull it off in the notoriously awful-sounding Silverdome (saw the Who there about a year prior, and the lyrics were absolutely unintelligible from start to finish) was a live sound engineering marvel, IMO. Not only that, but he really blew the Stones off the stage as well. Their performance was moderately average to mediocre in both sound and execution. Word was that they almost had to pull Santana off the stage after their 90-minute set, they were so smoking. Probably the best Santana show I’ve ever seen (next to the one I took my then 3-year old daughter to, which amazingly enough, turned HER into a lifelong Santana fan, even to this day; she was at the recent show at Pine Knob when he collapsed onstage from heat exhaustion). |
@larsman - this was the Cabaret Metro in Chicago. There are many venues in Chicago that will go late. Or well at least they used to when I was a regular at shows. I did get to see Killing Joke in 1989 and so I'm not upset I missed them, but man, I'd go see many concerts if they were over by 8:00. I saw U2 at the Aragon in 1984. The Aragon isn't a small club, but nowhere near an arena or stadium either. They were spectacular and the sound was really good. Seriously tight band. Then saw them at Soldier Field. More like holding up a postcard of the band while listening to a CD. |
@jji666 - I got to see U2 play two shows in one night in a club in San Francisco in 1979! They were indeed a cool indie band back then, though 'indie' wasn't used then. Where was that Killing Joke gig? Most shows I've been at over the decades have had to be over by 11pm. But I know places like NYC tend to run a lot later.... |
The reason is nothing is analog it's all digitally processed. From the mic feed to the board the amplification many layers of processing are going on stripping the soul out of the music. But there is a bit of a rebellion going on younger guys are buying vintage PA gear and running a less processed setup. |
I've always preferred club venues for sound quality. No, you won't see U2 but back in the day all the cool indie bands played the clubs. Now? I can't stay up late enough to even see the opening act. A few years back I had tickets to see Killing Joke. I figured I could see at least a few songs before sneaking out to head home to bed. Called the venue to see what time they'd be on, and the answer was "some time after 12:30." OK, not gonna be awake at that time. I know it's not rock'n'roll, but hey it's the music of the older generations now, not the children, and it would be great if there were more early shows. |
That is one of the biggest reasons I walked away as fast as I could from Rock-n-Roll early on. In the 30s through the 50s we had a lack of high quality electronic equipment to work with then somewhere in the 50s we discovered dedicated sound engineers. They were mostly self-taught and not well versed in sound. They all had their own idea of how things should sound. Thus we had to get creative with our listening environment by utilizing things like Graphic Equalizers. Though today there are actual schools teaching sound engineering, much of it is left up to the individual. Many artists have their own Special guy that they will used and who travels with them, then there are others who depend on the house sound man or a locally hired sound man hired by the promoter. We have much the same problems with the gear used. Even when I first traveled around with an early garage band doing their sound, though we brought our own gear, we were DICTATED to by the club owners or property management as to what we were allowed do with the sound. Ironically I have to agree with @dpop and don’t want anything in my system to colour or alter the sound but prefer to hear what the engineer heard and try to get into his mind. He was as much responsible for a Band or groups sound or style as the group. |
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@waytoomuchstuff , Right Arm!...uh, I mean, On....*L* ;) A few years back, Smashing Pumpkins played a local small venue louder than flesh 'n feathers could stand. Inside, you could yell at lungs's top to the person next to you and not be understood...misunderstood, Yes... "I NEED TO TAKE A PISS!" (spouse) "WHA....? YOU WANT HIS WHAT??1" 3 deep on the sidewalk outside had a better 'experience'...*L* At least Pink Floyd was enjoyable in contrast, even when the rain came and went....while it poured, the inflatable pig over the infield crowd appeared to be urinating on the people below, a goofy sight to see and recall even now.... ;) @ the BMG 'The Complex' show attended @ CWP/HOU, smallish attendance for a not so large outdoor facility. BMG show opens with a pair of reader boards left and right stage that initially started a conversation with each other. One began to play the 'victim', a bit of bitch and moan about this 'n that. The conversation began to draw in the audience for yay 'n nays, which led into the performance... Talk about an unusual 'warm-up' act....*L* And some things should just be played loud, just because. The Cult > She Sells Sanctuary is one....Prodigy's Narayan is another.. The latter has a nice 'growl' goin' from the woofs... But....too much has this 'additive effect'....makes you play chit like this at the stoplight, windows down, cranked..... Trampsta>Work (Tell me it doesn't make you want to dance...yeah....*L*) |
@curtdr >>>The studio monitors are designed, first of all, for the studio...well, you get my point<<< No doubt about it. I'm familiar with nearfields vs standard home audio system speakers. I've been to the CES high performance audio rooms many times over, AXPONA in Chicago a bunch of times, a few official recording studios, and I've been a Radio Broadcast Engineer for over 3 decades (lots of studios and audio equipment involved with that!). I've taken it all in, and tried to recreate (within budget) all of the good things I've heard. Acoustics also plays into this big time. When it comes to audio, my ears and brain have about 45 years of experience involved here. I know what sound I'm shooting for. My point is, when many audio enthusiasts (I think I do like that description better than audiophiles) are trying to assemble a system that replicates live performance PA systems (I seem to hear that mentioned frequently), I'm shooting for a more recording studio sound quality. |
Another thing that might be interesting to this thread is that I was browsing around on YouTube and there was an episode (I don't recall, it may have been the "Audiophiliac" guy) in which a gathering of "audiophiles" was in a home, I believe in New York, and an interviewer went around and asked individuals "What is 'snake oil' in audio?" The range of responses was ... revealing. But the response that stood out to me was one guy who said, essentially: "It's ALL snake oil. None of it sounds like real music, and it can never hope to. I don't care what your system is, it does not reproduce the experience of a performance at Carnegie Hall, nor any other hall where music is actually performed. Once I finally realized this, I stopped spending money on stereo gear, and now I spend my money on live performances so I can actually experience the real thing." Something to think about. |
The speakers that the Mixing Engineer used might not be nearly as good as yours, if you've selected yours carefully, first of all... especially for a home. The studio monitors are designed, first of all, for the studio. Unless you get the exact same monitors and amps used for each recording, and have your room set up like a studio, and have your volume at the same volume, and you have the same ears as the engineer... well, you get my point.
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@asvjerry +1 on Blue Man Group. Just might be the most fun you can legally have at home? It seems that live concerts othen involve three bands. The opener, the one in between, and the one your REALLY came to see. The producers want to see the energy and excitement build as the night goes on, hitting its peak at the moment the featured band takes the stage. MY reality is that the sound level of the opening act is just right. The second act is too loud. And, the featured band is often times unbearable. I’m not speaking from an audiophile perspective here, but as a living, breathing organism with a fairly high tolerance for pain and discomfort. But, I have my limits. I’ve seen Joan Jett twice. In a 5,000 seat multipurpose facility and an outdoor venue. The sound guys got it right both times. They seem to understand the concept of delivering a high degree of "kickassery" while preserving some degree of dynamic headroom to make those most energetic moments impactful. Graham Nash’s guys nailed it at The Pageant in St. Louis a few year back. Could not have wished for a better listening experience. Brought our small motorhome to the Moondance Jam festival in Walker, Minnesota in 2019. I’ll give the overall experience a 9.3 on the 10 scale, while the sound was in the low 7’s. One night, the expected ratching of sound levels occurred and when that evenings featured band, Tesla, took the stage it was excruciating and we just had to hit the eject button. We wondered back to the RV located about 1/2 mile as the crow flies from the stage. We opened the windows, poured out our favorite beverages, and spread out on the sofa. The sound level was just right. Have tickets to a Jon Kay (Steppenwolf) acoustic performance in a small, intimate venue in a couple of weeks. Been to this venue before and have high expectations of a great evening. |
Dear Lovers of Live Rock Concerts, this year together with friends I really enjoyed different Rock Concerts and from point of sound quality I was deeply impressed especially in Munich, Olympia Stadium, middle of the stage, approx. 20 meters away from stage - G n‘ R. Sound pressure was lower than 120 dB (Z) and Axl’s speech intelligibility and instruments (Slash was amazing) were clear with impressive, crisp bass lines. Another nice concert in terms of sound quality (and live performance of Bruce Dickinson) I‘ve alived in Stuttgart at Cannstatter Wasen, seat in 09:30 position, nearly at stage level was this years Iron Maiden show. To safe my ears especially during the performances of the bands before the main acts I wear ALPINE Party Plug Pro Natural earplugs. As you probably know my home Hifi equipment is not the worst so I am able to compare. ronfruehling |
I've been to some excellent sounding concerts... and a lot that suck when it comes to sound. The great sounding ones though teach you how rock should sound ... through your speakers! Likewise, a live orchestral performance is the real thing... it amazes me when "audiophiles" are oh so effete that they forget about what music performed live actually sounds like. Some of the most boring concerts I've been to were "perfect"... TOO perfect, and thus lacked that edge, that excitement, that daring, that dynamism. Steve Winwood, Elvis Costello, Journey ("back in the day"), and one "The Wall" show I saw done by Roger Waters; perfect sound, technically slick performance, sounded "just like the album" w no grit and gusto and so, What's the point? |
I've many times read discussions where audio enthusiasts construct home systems to try and recreate a live performance type sound. I don't know about you, but I'm the complete opposite. I try to create a system and sound that closely replicates (as much as my budget allows) the one the Mixing Engineer heard while mixing an album, or what the Mastering Engineer heard while mastering it. I leave the live performance sound (none of which many in this thread seem to appreciate these days) for the live performance venue(s). |
I saw the fantastic Hamilton show at the beautiful Providence Performing Arts Center. Great show , great venue ( completely re-done to bring back its majesty) & I was about 20 rows back in the center of the Orchestra. Sound was fair at best, very hard & edgy & quite annoying at times. Big speaker arrays, class D amps & plenty of DSP. I’m not at all a fan of this now typical set up & have not experienced it once where it sounded really good. |
Big concert venues are fundamentally lousy for most contemporary music - the echos and delay just smear all the sound. Perhaps the excess volume is to try and drown out that problem? Small clubs much easier because the audience itself deadens the room & makes sound much clearer - but volume remains a choice & sometimes bands & mixers make bad choices even in venues suited for the music Before amplification, music was composed in harmony with its venue (think chamber music vs. organ, or choral)…it seems hard to overcome those fundamentals - so, see the music one loves and try not to worry too much about the inevitable issues (earplugs really help at rock concerts, btw - brings down the volume & makes music much clearer) I think MSG sound not bad (relatively) because it’s actually pretty small (so audience has proportionately more sound absorption) and has a lot of tiers - deader space than many large venues
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I friend of mine (who also helped me set up my home system) set up the sound system for Hamilton - both for the touring shows and for Broadway. He explained some of the incredible lengths they went to make the amplified sound as realistic as possible . These included adding a small delay to the feed from singers at the back of the stage, so the listeners would perceive a more natural sense of depth. |
I have to agree with many posters here that the Grateful Dead sound very good live. U2 sounds like their recorded music are they compressing their sound on purpose? I have been very fortunate to see allot of live music, for me it is usually the treble shelving that is most annoying. Deep Purple was another great sounding show come to think about it but Alice Cooper's show was just plain weird...
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I can accept people commenting on bad sound as hey, people pay for a good experience and they should have one whether it’s an audience that behaves themselves (note that classical concert attendees are very touchy about audience jerkwads, although jerkwads still show up), or clean sound. The goal for mixing should be to have an audience not notice it. I can’t accept pseudo expertise in a field I know something about so I will feel free to share my knowledge because after all...I’m a giver. Feel better teo? Good...I knew you would. Note that sound mixers don’t start with the drums and bass...in large venue mixing you simply get a signal from all the mics or direct line feeds in their respective channels and mix ’em. I mention "large venue" because in smaller shows (under 500) it’s not uncommon for musicians to crank an amp up too much and ruin the mix...about which there’s nothing the sound mixer can do other than anger a musician, and you don’t want to do that. |
@77jovian , down with that....👍 Living where we do, most concerts are min. 2+ hours away (Raleigh/Durham, Charlotte, Knoxville...Atlanta is an overnight, and it had better be 'early seat pick') If I expect it to be an issue, we don't go. So much easier to cue up a file of some source and enjoy it on my own sound reinforcement...and my own 'mix'. ;) Don't have to tip-toe through the too-tripped with beer at ridiculous $s', can light up something of a non-retail variety without making the 'down-wind' crowd start head swiveling for source, Sal stoner with gal Sally either howling like wolves or loud on the cells... I often wished for a jar of ether with a battery fan....My version of The Cone of Silence...*L* That, and aerosol LSD... |
Over the last decade or so, about 90% of the concerts I've attended have had atrocious sound. I just don't go to many anymore...bad sound damages my ears; bad sound is unpleasant; bad sound prevents me from hearing the artistry that drew me to the concert in the first place; bad sound wastes my money and my time. I've never understood why a band would carefully craft an amazing sounding album and be content with lousy live reproduction of it. |
I’ve become very picky over the venue choice v. the performance to be attended. Leaning towards smaller halls, outdoor venues, and who is headlined and what they do.... Larger venues, esp. outdoors, draw fans that either spend too much time on a cell or loud chatting with whomever you came with. Esp. with the $ for even a mediocre seat (tending to under a balcony or nosebleed... The cheers/yowling of the audience is my downfall, the 'beige racket' typically louder than the flown drivers on stage. I've literally had my ears go 'pop' and toss the towel. Between that and loud machinery, my hearing required earplugs, later aids for just the day by day... I’ve been to enough concerts over the span to ’who/where’ determines go or no go. Fortunately, more good than awful. The occasional ’flawless’: Paul Simon, Cyntia Woods Pav., north of Houston. Terrific thunderstorm prior to and delaying the opening of the set, we watched as the front rolled in, soaked Everyone (we had grown a brain, rented chairs and brought a tarp (had noted the forecast and the radar...). Opened with ’rainforest noodling’, perfect choice that brought cheers... Talking Heads~David Byne: Previous at the Greek Theatre, Berkeley, Byne twice right here in AVL, small hall. Both times, front row balcony dead center. Pefect. Others: Anything Bill Graham had anything to do with back in the Bay Area.....within ’practical limits’... I suspect all had their own mix crew, sure sounded that way... |
Sound men start with the drums, getting a great-but-too-loud sound from the kit. Then they do the same with the bass. After that there's nowhere for the higher pitched instruments and vocals to exist. And it all sounds like crap. My wife and I were once at a Los Lobos outdoors show and the sound was so bad we decided to go home. As we were walking away we hit a point where the sound was decent enough so we sat there and stayed for the rest of the concert. So it can be a relative thing. The most painfully loud band I ever heard was the 13th Floor Elevators at the Safari Club in Baytown, Texas ca. 1968. This was long before big PA systems so I'm not sure how they managed to do it. Small room, I guess. |
Lol a friend and myself went to a bar that had an Irish band playing for st Patrick s day. On there break asked if they would like us to setup the system a bit better they said sure asked us what we knew about it told them we were both audio files and it was a life time hobbie we got the speakers close to equal distance from the wall leveled them somewhat close one was at leat 2 feet lower than the other did a few basic things they started to play the first song and stopped mid song and thanked us. After the show they offer us a job!!! Lol had fun that night. |
There are many reasons rock shows generally can sound awful. For one thing, and the most important one is that most of these arenas are not designed for sound quality at all. They are echoey, sound smearing, godawful places of zero acoustics. All the DSP in the world isn't going to tame that mess. |
An entirely different genre, but last night I went to a rave held in a 100 year old warehouse in Detroit. Not surprising that such a venue not at all conducive to good sound. Concrete floor, high ceiling, metal beams. Highly reflective surfaces everywhere. The sound engineers always crank the bass at events like this, and 24 18" subwoofers in a relatively small space pressurizes the room. The treble was the worst part. On multiple occasions it became ear piercing. Attending such an event and expecting good sound is foolish. Best to set aside critical listening and indulge in the experience. |
’electronic manipulation’, wolf, in this case...means ’dsp based acoustic redress’, or some similar meant set of words. But the paragraph,and half the post’s intent was that it as all about DSP based attempts at acoustic manipulation so for me to say it in that specific sentence was not required. You CHOSE to quote it out of context. When others say something you don’t have to go out of your way to misinterpret what they say, so you can put a chip on your shoulder about them, and then attack that thing you created. It’s disingenuous. then you proceed to lambaste that person as uninformed an an idiot in a smarmy round about condescending way. Grow up child. You attempt to appear as an adult; Then show yourself to be one. IMO it’s a large part of why your commenting PO’s a notable number of people. It’s missing critical aspects of human integrity in the idea of sharing space on a forum and relating. I PO people for different reasons. To each their own ability to PO, I guess. |
Blaming Class D phased array speakers is silly...a good sound mixer can make nearly anything work well. Also, now that in-ear monitors are nearly universally adopted, the on stage levels can be anything. A little history: Piles of Altec A7s or similar JBL boxes were standard (often with Mac amps) until maybe the mid 70s when Clair Bros. boxes (or similar) were introduced. They could have JBL 15s with other JBL horns and tweeters in a single box often stacked or flown)..often powered by piles of Phase Linear amps...anybody think those amps sounded better than modern Class D arrays? No they did not...the days of super loud crowd blasting sound had arrived. |
I put my money on the venue/structure and the design/build in the bad acoustics. Where I come from is a great example, in Edmonton Alberta, Rodgers Place(home of the NHL Edmonton Oilers), is perfect venue for concerts in its design and sounds awesome. When they built the building concerts/music was part of the design/build. Now go south down the highway to Calgary Alberta, and the Saddle Dome(home of the NHL Calgary Flames), the building is shaped like a "saddle" and every concert I've been to there, the acoustics suck...bad, really bad! |
Thank you @wolf_garcia @panzrwagn for sharing and validating that yes, it can be done. @sparksgja "Lots of washy echo, clear yet layered guitars, keyboard synths and a bass so firm my mid chest vibrated (and I kept telling myself to buy a subwoofer). It sounded for all its loudness completely involving and visceral." - sounds like you got the War on Drugs exactly as you should have. Love that band. Honestly (and not to be mean) the rest of this thread should be followed up with a "Get off my lawn" type of complaint. Know the venue, know your band, and set expectations accordingly. |
