Taters, you'll never find a consensus in what may be THE most polarizing topic in HiFi. I'm not hear to beat the drum for either camp, but my two cents - Cable costs should be proportionate to the overall system cost. Case in point: Last year I was auditioning new speakers and was listening to a pair of Audio Note AN-E Spe at the local dealer. We started with the the least expensive AN copper cables that were in my price range and it was very nice. If that's all I heard I would have been pleased as punch. Then we swapped in the next step up silver cables and the sound changed measurable (approx 31.56%). I kid, but it was VERY noticeable. Better, worse that's and individual thing but certainly different and more to my liking with increased clarity w/o trading away warmth. Then we jumped to the $$$ silver cables and the sound didn't so much change as you got "more" of everything. Now bear in mind the whole system was $95K+ of all Audio Note gear, which brings me to my second point - System Synergy. You don't put monster truck tires on a Ferrari. You can have uber-expensive gear that simple doesn't work well together. If you've drank the Shindo Cool-Aid (like I have) System Synergy becomes quite important for a myriad of different reason I won't get into here. But because of this they make their own cables designed to mate with their own equipment as does Audio Note and maybe a few others (Terrasonics?) I'm not saying it's the only way to go, but I like the idea that someone with intimate knowledge of my gear purpose building cables to compliment them. I feel if you have a well thought out system you're doing yourself a disservice by not having cables that compliment what you've assembled and I'm not saying they have to be expensive either. If you sat through that same demo with me and you couldn't hear a difference between those 3 speaker cables I'd be suggesting a trip to the audiologist. I know DIY friends that run lamp cord as speaker/IC and they're very pleased with the results. You know what, at the end of the day, screw everybody else, myself included. Just do what makes YOU happy!
why do people feel the need to buy expensive cable
I have tried expensive cables and one's moderately priced. I would say there were some differences but I can't actually say the expensive cables were better. IMHO I believe a lot of people buy expensive cables because they don't actual trust their ears and are afraid of making a mistake. They figure the expensive cables are better for the fact they cost more. If you have a difference of opinion or share the same thoughts, I would like to hear about it.
1,088 responses Add your response
| Post removed |
"10-26-15: Maplegrovemusic zd . thanks for pointing out the manufacturing costs for one cable out of a thousand !" I gave more than 1. If you do a search for Cardas pics, you'll find some pictures of cables that were stripped down, layer by layer, so you can see how intricate the assembly actually is. The artists drawings in the sales lit doesn't do it justice. I also mentioned Tara. As far as I know, you can't go out and buy rectangular solid core conductors. That has to be made in house using custom built machines. I also remember stating that many cables don't have this type of construction cost and are probably over priced. I can name plenty of those as well. I also don't think its a coincidence that Tara, Nordost and Cardas are 3 of the biggest brands of cables in the world. They must be doing something right. |
My recollection from retail sales days is that historically all wires tended to be mostly profit to help compensate for the fact that there was little profit in selling electronics. I doubt much has changed except that more people realize the profit in wires versus other gear and jumped on the bandwagon. Speakers were the next highest profit margin items in general, usually 100%, not unreasonable in order for a store to be able to make a profit because there was little or non to be had selling electronics. Just look at the prices of wires at BEst Buy even today and it seems things have not changed much. Nowadays, profit is mostly in services, like in cell phone service as opposed to the cost of buying the actual phone. If you gotta have it, you gotta have it. Profit margins should not deter you. People have to make a living somehow. |
I have no doubt that there is HUGE profit in the minimalist designed DNM Reson ICs that I use exclusively these days. But they are reasonably affordable (on teh grand scale of high end audio things) and I can clearly hear the difference they make compared to the others I have tried so there you go. Same true with Pangea power Cords I use on pre-amp and DAC except the build quality of these is quite substantial and seems to at least somewhat justify the modest on the grand scale of things cost. For TOSLINK/SPDIF digital cables, I know of and hear nothing to justify any extra expense, as long as they are of good build quality. Amazon basic models do just fine for practically nothing and at a fraction of the cost of similar wires at Best Buy even. The jury is still out for me in regards to digital USB cables...not enough data points under my belt yet with hifi USB to say, though I am skeptical great expense is needed for top notch results there. My experience has been that not only are all wires not created equal, but it matters more or less even depending on the specific type and use. Its hard to predict what will work best or provide best value. Throwing money at the problem is easier sometimes perhaps and may help or not but will almost certainly NOT yield the best value in the end, if that is what matters. Continual trial and error with various more modest cost options (especially if used or via a company that specializes in helping people find the RIGHT wires, not just a particular make/model) is the way I would recommend for most interested in excellent performance but at modest cost. |
We're still arguing about "expensive" cable while failing to define what it is. Here's my, admittedly extremely subjective, take: $0-$500 modest price, $500-$1,000 medium, above $1,000-stratosphere, expensive. Would anyone agree with this (yeah right, us agree on anything)? That being said, looks like I've purchased several "expensive" cables while everything else is in the other two categories. |
Rja, I've read recommendation for good inexpensive hotel in Rome. When I pointed out that it was over $1k a night, hardly inexpensive, he said "it is inexpensive to me". I would rather speculate where is the point of diminishing returns. If you still can hear the difference between $500 and $2000 cable then the only question is if you can afford it and how good is your system (can you use this money better). One thing about cables is that it is non-perishable item. Many years from now I might have different amp and speakers but still the same cables. |
I feel the need to hear really good systems with really expensive gear including wires just so I know what they sound like as a "reference" and what I might be missing otherwise. But I have yet to feel the need to buy any of it. I have felt the need to make some changes and do some "upgrades" afterwards, but always for a fraction of the cost that the reference systems I heard would have cost. I'm not saying mine is as good or not. Only that I get as much enjoyment out of my stuff these days as I do from the "very best" when I hear it. For whatever the reason. Probably just me. Same true in comparison to most live performances I hear even though I know my stereo could never reproduce the best of those accurately. But as long as I can close my eyes and believe I am hearing something real, I am happy. |
Price means next to nothing, I look at it in categories because one companies mid range may cost more than another company's extreme product, and the cheaper one may blow that away because their extreme costs over $20,000. So how about this more pertinent approach? entry mid range high end performer ultra ridiculous, but appropriate for certain systems Many companies that make a great range of the three haven't managed to create an ultra cable, and some of those are out into 40 and 50 grand. Transparent, MIT, Nordost, Audioquest, Kimber, all make mid ranges from $1500 to a few thousand dollars, while there are companies making their top cable that blows them away for under $1000. |
| Post removed |
10-27-15: TonykayTonkay, fyi my Dealer may carry TL, but I couldn't give a rats behind about those cables. I use Jorma Prime and Statement cables in my system & will never sell them.. Btw, have you heard the mystery about the Company, the shill and the imposter? The Company made big, fat cables which have space age technology & posted lots of technical info on their site. The shill thought he could help sell those space age cables and hit upon the idea of offloading lots of 'b stock' cables direct. The imposter pushed a John Deere mower by day, but by night put on his TL cape and became 'Captain Cobalt'! Now who did it? The Director in the library with the candlestick? The shill with the laptop in the cybercafe, or the handyman with the snake in the trailer park? |
historically all wires tended to be mostly profit to help compensate for the fact that there was little profit in selling electronicsA long time equipment designer told me this, right before they said, "if I knew what I know now, I would have gotten into the cable market early on." I have had multiple cables costing in the range of $1-3K per pair in my system. Now, all my cables are DIY, except my Totaldac USB cable, and my system has never sounded better. I have taken apart cables in the $500-$1.5K range and, in one case, an expensive power cord consisted of THHN electrical wire from any hardware store encased in PVC tubing, also from any hardware store. This PC sold in the range of about $500 - $1K, depending on length. I kid you not, the materials cost was probably $25. This is one reason I am very skeptical of any cable manufacturer (or audio gear manufacturer) that never gives buyers a glimpse into how the cable (or gear) is made. I wouldn't buy a car without doing my research to know what the major components consisted of, and how it was made, so why in the world would I buy a cable costing as much as a car without knowing if it was constructed out of $25 of hardware wire? The hype and liberal use of "science" in cable advertising can be laughable, for those with a scientific background. It preys on buyer's fear that their system will not be optimally impedance-matched, will have audible skin effect, will pick up RFI/EMI noise, etc., etc. It is similar to other products where manufacturers come out with some new "scientific breakthrough" every year simply to generate a buying frenzy of people who feel like they are missing out if they don't have the "latest technology." Some cables I have taken apart have quite good materials and construction quality, and obviously required a specialized machine to manufacture. Buying (or renting time with) these machines, and setting them up, is not inexpensive so only the larger companies who are confident they will sell lots of cable are able to do so. Some of those companies probably also spend quite a bit to research different cable designs. So, it is understandable that the markup reflects research and manufacturing. Larger companies, who believe they need to carry a full complement of cable types and price ranges to cover a large buyer range, probably also have a strategy so that the better sellers "carry" the unprofitable cables in their lines. In the end, the price is set at what the market will bear and only a buyer can judge the value. I am sure that while some companies have made large profits, others have lost money on cables and, in some cases, their losses were more related to poor marketing, misplacing themselves in the market, poor pricing strategies (too much or too little), and other reasons, than to how the cables sounded. In response to the OP, sure, there are differences in how cables sound, and certainly differences in how certain cables sound with certain gear. Just because a cable sounds good in one system doesn't mean it will provide an optimal sound in another. I spend the bulk of my audio budget on the gear/speakers but others place a higher importance on cables. Not all of those people have been doing this for a long time, or have the ability and experience to construct their own cables. Maybe they will in the future, maybe they find certain manufactured cables to sound best in their systems, maybe they have better sounding systems, or maybe they simply have a better way to spend their time. Good for them. IMO, if someone has the scratch, why not buy whatever cable sounds best to them. There is no right or wrong, so there doesn't need to be a consensus. |
Of what importance is what job he performs and what type of house he lives in? Should he be embarrassed? Should we feel superior? Other than the acoustics probably are terrible, it is none of our business where he lives or what type of labor he performs to make a living, unless he is a employee of an audio company, where he is then simply required to disclose this affiliation. Tonykay, proof? It is my observation that when we resort to personal attacks it usually says more about us than the people we are attacking, Been there, done that. |
I've recently jumped into the very deep end of the pool with interconnects for my 2 new dacs. I purchased a set of Tara Labs Grandmaster Evolution w/HFX 1.5m XLR's for my Trinity Dac. these are the ones with the floating shield design and dual monoblock HFX ground system. sorry to say that these cables indeed are the real deal. what they do is astonishing in terms of noise floor and revealing detail and musical refinement. I've ordered another set of these in 2m RCA's for my Lampizator Golden Gate. I wish they did not do what they do; but now that I've heard it there is no going back. my system does allow for all the benefits of these 'uber' cables to come through. my new dart preamp enables them to shine. crazy good! don't listen if you might be tempted. I made that mistake. |
On my system I started out with DIY and inexpensive cables ($50-$100), but was never really completely satisfied with any of them so I decided to try more expensive ones ($300-$500) and did hear improvements. However, it was not unitl I hit the ($900-$1,000+) range did I become completely satisfied with their sound. And since I am completely satisfied at this level I feel no urge to up the ante. If anyone out there is curious I'd suggest finding cables which retail for twice the cost of your current ones and try to get a trial on YOUR system, or purchase used to try for least risk. You might be surprised. I was. |
Hi mikelavigne, great post!, thankyou for your honesty, I have the Taralabs zero gold and omega gold, and Cobalt power cord, 3rd cable down from yours, excellent cable's, I'm happy with them, however, I soon may be taking the plunge into the Evolution cables my self! , might listen to the new sp Evolution line that just got introduced, cheers. |
I must admit to general skepticism when it comes to cables, however I had to rethink this after a demo at a local audio salon with a popular and expensive power cord. The improvement in sound quality was apparent to all present. I have since reverted to my normal state of lazy agnosticism since I can't afford them.... |
Obviously not everyone with a lot of money spends it on expensive wires. Its an interesting question how much or which ones are worth it, but not why do people buy them. People spend money on lots of things that others would consider wasteful. Nothing new really there. I doubt there will ever be any broad consensus that megabuck wires are smart buys, not that it really matters. But if you have the money and nothing better to do with it, why not? Especially if you do not care what other people might think. |
jam, Which ones and how much? if you are starting with "stock" quality cords, there is a good chance you might do similarly better with something else you could afford. I've found that to be true using pangea cords on my line level gear. Those will not break the bank. There are others I have taken notice of that might as well that others could probably expound on better. |
"Having said that, the skeptic in me was not prepared for what "wires" can do. " No doubt, but the key word is "can". What they will actually do in each case can be very hard to predict, even with the same wire used. It largely depends on what you start with. Not just what wire gets replaced, but the quality of the power supply portion of the unit used with. Some may be so good already that a better cord makes little or no difference. or in some cases, a power cord might serve a shielding function against RFi and/or EMI noise, but neither of those are necessarily a problem to start with in all cases. So like most things, it all depends. Even more reason not to drop big bucks on a wire even if you hear a difference in a demo, unless teh demo is with YOUR gear. If its satisfaction guaranteed or money back, then there is little risk. But it is a very unpredictable thing to invest in. You never know until you try at which point you and your $$$s have already parted. |
"What is the reason a silly expensive cable sounds better than the rest ? Like i have stated before the price of copper is $5 a pound . So , it is not the price of the copper . What's left ? Only referring to copper cables as they are the most popular ." Ask the manufacturers that produce high end cables. |
"Like i have stated before the price of copper is $5 a pound . So , it is not the price of the copper . What's left ? Only referring to copper cables as they are the most popular ." The quality of the copper, and how difficult the design is to build. Have a look at this picture. https://www.google.com/search?q=cardas+cable&safe=off&biw=1600&bih=770&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0CAgQ_AUoA2oVChMIlbyxtZ3pyAIVhCQmCh0Wog-y#imgrc=R76Ojp5kqP3-qM%3A |
"The quality of the copper, and how difficult the design is to build. Have a look at this picture. https://www.google.com/search?q=cardas+cable&safe=off&biw=1600&bih=770&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0CAgQ_AUoA2oVChMIlbyxtZ3pyAIVhCQmCh0Wog-y#imgrc=R76Ojp5kqP3-qM%3A" If we need to elucidate obvious aspects such as this then let's not waste our time on him. |
