why do people feel the need to buy expensive cable

I'm off that particular merry go round. My system has only the very thin wires connecting the lightweight earphones to the portable player. I eschew all other cables, interconnects, power cords, digital cable, what have you.

Mapman, actually he didn't try any expensive cables. I trust no one here actually thinks that $1K+ speaker cables are expensive. Hint: they're not. That's kind of entry level at this stage of the game. Now, if he said he tried $10K speaker cables and preferred the ones he's got then maybe we'd have something to talk about.

Nothing is guaranteed to deliver certain results. Do you make this stuff up, Batman? Funny how an audio cheapskate shows up on threads about expensive gear. Revenge of the nerds?

By and large, according to many reviews and many comments by individuals, and regardless of whatever silly arguments naysayers might come up with, the more expensive cables are the best sounding cables. That is not to say that the most expensive cables on Earth are the best sounding ones, necessarily, but they should get you into the ballpark. By the same token, if you purchase some High Fidelity cables they should At the very least get you on the ball park. Of someone is sporting some $105,000 Rockport Hyperion speakers and a $102,000 Walker Audio turntable what's the harm in say $20,000 worth of cables? I don't begrudge anyone buying a $205,000 Ferrari California. Live and let die, I say.

Mapman, obsess much about what other folks spend on audio?

Pretty sure Mapman might be just a touch deaf with such an attitude: The only real difference between cables is the price. That's gold, Jerry, gold!

No, the word expensive is relative to the highest cost of cables which is what $10-20K. It also depends on the person, what HE thinks is expensive for him. AND the word expensive reflects how much importance the person places on cables relative to the rest of the system. For example, just read the threads on High Fidelity Cables or Tara Labs Cables, you will find those folks who place extreme importance to cables. Fir them it's a paradigm shift, where most of the money on the system in some cases, I happen to know one case, is spent on cables. Thus cables become the overriding concern and cost. I myself eschew cables and have almost none in my system. You could say I went the other way. Ha ha ha

MGM wrote,

"The only item in ones system that has a sound signature is ones speakers . The cables used are going to determine how the drivers move . Find the cable that moves the drivers to the speakers full potential and then you have "The best cable for your system" Same goes with amplifiers."

Or put another way, the only thing in one's system WITHOUT a sound signature is the speakers, which output precisely the accumulated sound of the various components of the system, including the cables.

;-)

Ohm's Law suggests that if you desire more current to the speakers all you actually need do is reduce the length of the speaker cables. While this may or may not solve you particular concern regarding woofer excursion, I tend toward suspecting that increasing the current by itself will solve the other issues involved not related to woofer excursion. Such as grain in the treble, soundstage depth, resolution, tonality, frequency response, dynamics and inner dynamics, warmth and sweetness, to name a few.

Addendum to my last post: Ordinarily when one requires more power, I.e., current, to the speakers one simply turns up the volume knob, no?

Of course I meant to say, "increasing the current by itself will NOT solve the other issues involved..."

Mapman wrote,

"No manufacturer will knowingly publish something that might limit sales. That's why most speaker makers understate what power is needed for best performance. It would scare off potential customers in many cases if they told them how much power was needed for optimal performance."

I actually don't think that's true. I am pretty sure most speaker manufacturers state the MINIMUM power required. They also frequently state the MAXIMUM POWER Handling capability. It's also why speaker manufactures usually state sensitivity, you know, to indicate relative power required.

I'm afraid it's not that easy. I have heard systems that did not reveal differences in cables. Who knows why? It's not a done deal that cable X will outperform cable Y even with all our convictions. C'est la vie! ;-)

It would appear that air dielectric cables would not be terribly difficult to make, you just need spacers to keep the conductor centered in the jacket.  Now vacuum cables, if there really are such things, is a horse of a different color.  Of course you can achieve the same thing by suspending non-vacuum cables from the ceiling.

As we enter the what fortieth year of the cable debate let's hope it never ends.  Let us pray.

"Using exotic cables to achieve a desired sound is not cost effective."

That statement is actually an excellent example of what is known as a Strawman argument. Misstating the opposing side’s position. It’s a common ploy of those who object, perhaps strongly, to expensive high end cables to portray cables as some sort of tone control device, as if the high end cable manufacturers are engaged in some sort of global conspiracy to manipulate the naive and gullible audiophile. And that audiophiles purchase high end cable to control some audio characteristic or another, you know, tame the highs, get more bass frequencies, etc. Furthermore the determination of the cost effectiveness of a given cable or a given anything actually would require a formal system engineering study, not an off-the-top-of-the-head opinion.

An excellent example of value is the analysis plus pro oval power cord 3’ length with the expensive connectors on it for less than $100 bucks brand spanking new. You cannot beat that with a stick.

 
mechans
Because sometimes it makes the music sound better. It's really not complicated. Not always BTW, sometimes.

shazam!

The Amazing Randi offered Michael Fremer $1 Million dollars if he could tell the difference between $20,000 high end cables and Monster Cable. The negotiations bogged down when The Amazing Randi and his team of intrepid pseudo skeptics became a little suspicious that maybe Mr. Fremer might actually be able to hear the difference, even with all the ridiculous stipulations of the Randi Controlled Blind Test.

Ya gotta love it when someone actually thinks taters is a real person. You can’t make this stuff up folks. Enjoy it while you can.

Of course, the difference is you can have mathematical proof and you can prove physical theories. But you cannot have religious proof. 

Twelve pages?! How about 40 years? 

I just sprung for an Audioquest Carbon HDMI Cable that was 5 times more than the almost new LG Blu Ray player I also picked up this week. Was that wrong? 😳

I’m enjoying a system has virtually no cables or power cords, not so much for the cost issue but the distortion and noise issue. Once you eliminate all the power cords, interconnects, speaker cables and fuses you realize how much distortion and noise all those things bring to the table. Of course, the cost savings of such a set-up is not something to be taken lightly. 😛

Ah, it was not a court case. Just as I thought. It’s equivalent to Better Business Bureau going after contact enhancers or the Teleportation Tweak. Give me a break.

If I’m not mistaken there was no court case in the UK. That’s an old wives tale. It was something along the lines of some pseudo skeptic writing an embarrassing article in the local newspaper. If there had been a court trial everybody and his brother in UK would be taking all the audio companies to court. Hel-loo! Unemployment is up. Besides, how would they assemble a jury? Nobody can hear. 🤡

Prove it.

And to think the UK used to be such a bastion of high end audio. What a shame.

willemj, that’s what we call Kangaroo Courts over here. Boing! Boing! Boing!

Thanks for the information supporting my original contention that there was no court case. Besides, the whole thing was resolved in favor of the cable company. So willemj’s contention of a court case was a perfect example of fake news. Also known as a nothing burger. 🍔

Uh, neither one of your new “evidence” are court cases, either. More fake news. What’s next, natural food? 🍔 The Teleportation Tweak? UFOs? Ghosts? 👻

dynaquest4
Thanks, Geoff. Being you I knew you would be the first to chime in.

Hey, no problem. Thank you for the usual tasty nothingburgers. 🍔🍔

Just mention the T word and wait to see who shows up. It’s uncanny! 😛 It’s like they have ESP.

Sounds real scientific. 😛

 
dave_b
(I agree that) most cables are of a similar design and can be had fairly inexpensively.

That’s a patently false statement. There are solid core cables, there are stranded core cable. There are cables that have hollow conductors. There are cables with multiple solid core conductors. There are cables with air dielectric, cables with Teflon dielectric, cables with polypropylene dielectric. There are cables as thin as a human hair. There are 10 ga cables. There are silver cables, copper cables, liquid cables, carbon cables, graphene cables, cryod cables. There are cables that use single crystal copper. There are cables that use ultra pure copper. There are cables that use some gold mixed in with the silver. There are shielded and unshielded cables. There are cables that are controlled for directionality and cables that aren’t. Some cables have carbon fiber sleeves. 

So sayeth the man who never says anything unless it’s some stalking behavior thing.

I anxiously await your results. I had no idea you were so handy. Now we’re getting somewhere!

Oh, I get. So now I’m the one who’s supposed to do it. 🙄

bdp24
I haven’t read through this thread, so forgive me if someone has already mentioned that Galen Gareis of Belden Cable has been writing some articles for Copper, PS Audio’s free online magazine. I’m finding them well worth the time it’s taking me to read them.

>>>>See my comments on the Cable Snake Oil Antidote thread.

drjsmd
Cables do matter but they are also the biggest scam in high end audio. I am supposed to believe that it requires $3000 to produce a 1m interconnect with no moving parts? Maybe there are rare materials that require such a cost but there is scant science to back up the exaggerated claims of both the makers of such cables and the rather absurd claims that buyers report hearing.I do love reading the flowery reviews as they are extremely entertaining.

>>>>It would probably be helpful to your argument to post some of the alleged scant science and exaggerated claims of manufacturers and customers with some sort of evidence. Something. Otherwise you really don’t have a leg to stand on. By the way, my advice to you is don’t read any reviews of the $24,000 interconnects as you might risk a brain aneurysm. 🧠

I’m always in awe of anyone who knows the limits of my perception. Gosh, does that Mr. Self dude have like, ESP or something? I’m guessing a little but here but Mr. Self isn’t on board the Tweak Train, is he? 🚂 Toot, toot!

willemj, why are you arguing against your own star witness? You quoted him as stating cables are directional. Did you misquote him or are you just confused? 😳

@willemj Exactly! That’s why it’s an Appeal to Authority. Anybody can round up some expert somewhere who will support your position, no matter what your position happens to be. See, you guys learn something everyday. Even what’s his name knows what an Appeal to Authority is, which frankly is kind of shocking. 😛 Maybe you can find an Einstein quote. It nice that you admire or worship those who agree with you. 🙄

Definition of an Expert. Someone who use to be a drip under pressure.

We often see this sort of thing, you know, people who are over educated in certain areas but who can’t see the forest for the trees. Since I actually didn’t read any of Mr. Self’s Cable screed what exactly was his reason for saying cables aren’t directional? Or was it some sort of gut feeling?

Hey, ain’t nothin’ wrong with being obsessed with good sound. Let’s take a hypothetical case, shall we? OK, now I’m not expecting anyone to believe there can be 100% improvement to sound quality with only one tweak. Even though I personally have experienced that one more than one occasion. But to avoided putting anyone off too much or possibly causing a brain aneurysm in any die hard Skeptics let’s take it a little slower. Suppose you have five tweaks and your system is not all messed up and can actually hear the effects of all five tweaks. For the purposes of argument let’s say the five tweaks are 2 Blue Fuses, the new Graphene Contact Enhancer (applied to only interconnects and the Blue Fuses), a Green Pen for coloring the outer edge of CDs and finally, a spring based isolation system for speakers. OK, that’s five.

Then as each tweak is applied, we ascribe a percentage improvement to each tweak. So for each Blue Fuse let’s say, for the purpose of argument that there is a 15% SQ improvement. Not too high, not too low, right? That’s 30% for both fuses together. Next up, the graphene contact enhancer applied to the Blue Fuses and interconnects only. That should be another 30% SQ improvement at least, you know, being a little conservative. That’s a total of 60%.

Next up, the Green Pen. Now normally I’d estimate the Green Pen about 5-10% SQ improvement but since we’ve just improved the SQ by 60% th Green Pen should score higher, being more powerful now that you can hear the effect easier. So let’s say the Green Pen improves SQ by 20%, fair enough? Now we’re up to a total of 80% since we first started. 

Isolating the speakers should produce even greater results since the speaker vibration will not be allowed to migrate to the electonics. So isolating the speakers, especially after we’ve used four tweaks already, should score, what, 30%?

Thus, with five tweaks, conservatively speaking, we’ve managed to improve the sound quality 110%. Pretty good for an afternoon’s work, eh?

@willemj - with an attitude like that you will never advance in this hobby. Remember the Little Engine that Could? I think I can, I think I can, I think I can! 🚂 Toot, toot!

"[Nature] ... never says "Yes" to a theory. In the most favorable cases it says "Maybe," and in the great majority of cases simply "No." If an experiment agrees with a theory it means for the latter "Maybe," and if it does not agree it means "No." Probably every theory will someday experience its "No"—most theories, soon after conception."

Albert Einstein


>>>>As fate would have it in this hobby when a test proves negative it actually doesn’t mean “No.” It means “Maybe” because maybe the test was flawed and we’ll have to have someone else take a crack at it. And if the results are positive it probably means YES to the theory, though prudence dictates we get some more postive results on board for good measure. Any test is only one data point. Apologies to Albert.

Actually there are many things in Science that are not (rpt not) subject to revision. The absolute constant of the speed of light in a vacuum, the mass of an electron, all elements have exactly the same composition everywhere in the universe, the universe is expanding forever, the physical characteristics of a black hole have been known with absolute certainty since the 1960s, the hypotenuse of a right triangle given the other two sides is never in doubt, the equivalence of energy and mass (E= Mc2), all electromagnetic waves are comprised of photons, and all manufactured wire is directional. 

Well, obviously if your hearing isn’t all it’s cracked up to be, you know, if you’re 105 years old or whatever, and/or your system is not (rpt not) revealing enough and/or has at least one or two errors in it and/or you don’t follow proper protocol for cable evaluation, such as using fully broken in cables, the chances are excellent you won’t hear much, if anything. If in fact any cable evaluation was actually performed which it probably wasn’t. Same as it always was, a lot of who shot John.

There is no onus on anyone to prove anything. If you think there is you’re wrong. End of story. Do you guys make this stuff up? Do you inhabit The Skeptics Society website and dig this stuff up.