why do people feel the need to buy expensive cable

What makes an expensive cable expensive ? Is it the fancy jacket ? The Ultra rare conductor materials used (LOL) ? The fancy box they come in ? Biggest sham on us audiophile fools ! If we only knew the mark up v.s. actual costs , no one in their right mind would ever buy one .

zd . thanks for pointing out the manufacturing costs for one cable out of a thousand !

Cables made of 24k gold would be cheaper than some copper cables . Someone please explain this ? How can a copper cable be worth thousands of dollars ? The answer is someone is willing to pay it . All the pricing is based on what someone is willing to pay and not a set price markup over material costs .

why do people feel the need to buy expensive cable - Because it matches there overpriced syytem . Cannot have large sums of money on display and not have a the same tied up in cables . That would look silly

What is the reason a silly expensive cable sounds better than the rest ? Like i have stated before the price of copper is $5 a pound . So , it is not the price of the copper . What's left ? Only referring to copper cables as they are the most popular .

Using the analogy of exotic sports cars to audio cables does not make much sense to me . A super car will appreciate in value . The value can be seen .Open the doors , the hood .It is all visible . It does not take a rocket scientist to see the materials used . cables on the other hand ....

The only item in ones system that has a sound signature is ones speakers . The cables used are going to determine how the drivers move . Find the cable that moves the drivers to the speakers full potential and then you have "The best cable for your system" Same goes with amplifiers .

The reason people often state that expensive cables will not make budget speakers sound better is because the budget speakers drivers are limited in their excursion . The more money one spends on speakers generally the larger the drivers will be in the statement speakers . (harder to drive to their full potential ). Thus cables that can send the proper amount of current is more important for those speakers . Hence being able to hear large differences in cables in those systems.

True That . So the designer of amps and speakers should have the knowledge of what is needed to make there designs perform optimally . Why not tell the consumer ?

The price of a cable has nothing to do with better performance . Finding the right cable for your equipment is what is needed . If a more expensive cable works so be it .You may find the same attribute in a lesser priced cable as well.

"They can't be too specific because its impossible listen to everything in all possible combinations. Also factor in personal taste."
The personal taste was in choosing their product . Sell the product with the knowledge of how to get the very best performance from there product

Who likes going around the merry go round over and over , Start to feel dizzy after a while . How many of you like to feel you may not be using the right (best) cable ? No interest in buying fifteen different cables to simply find the one that has the proper design to fit a particular piece of gear .

"Most manufacturers do give some general info on how to get the best from the speakers, in the owners manual and/or online. Another option is to call them directly. If you tell them about your system and taste, you usually get much more info out of them"
I find the power requirement specs a joke . Magnepan for example states something like 100 - 200 watts for their speakers . Not much info there . same goes for all speaker specs i have read for speakers bought in the past .
Lets use the sports car analogy once again . You buy a supercar but they leave a crucial aspect for performance up to you to decide . Unless you are a car designer you are not going to want to make that choice on your own .

The big boys with their expensive toys are getting really defensive .

Thanks to Taters for a topic that has some legs . Not the same old same old , should i get the arc or conrad ...

you guys are still equating price to quality , or being good ? It is fine to live in a fantasy land . Those of us in reality realize price and fancy jackets do not provide sound . The natural elements of the earth inside the cable do . So why charge someone a ridiculous amount for these elements ? Because a fool is born everyday LOL

Well Taters , I use to live in the fantasy land myself. Believed / hoped by spending more money i would get better sound for many years . Sure am glad it did not take too long for the epiphany to happen . Some spend a life time in the "fantasy land"

i'm cuckoo for cocoa puffs

I have been running balanced cables for some time now . Yesterday i picked up a Krell KSA 100 off Craigs list . It has only rca inputs . Had to scrounge around to find a rca cable in the old dusty freebie bin of different cables i have . Plugged in some no name rca's so i could hear the new amp . To my amazement i was still listening to great sound . Go figure ? How is this possible ?

Having an open mind i say try anything . Who's to say some spool wire at Home Depot will not float someones boat . I completely disagree with stating to someone you must spend x amount of dollars on wire if you want good sound . That is just ridiculous .

Anyone who wants to buy expensive cables more power to you . Just do not tell others they will not get great sound if they choose not to buy into them . End of discussion ? Good .

Although i do not think many would have argued against that . If our logic is wire is wire your expensive wire should also be great too . Just overpriced is all .

 As a parting statement . Whatever floats your boat . Stop telling me and anyone else reading this we have to spend big bucks to be happy or that we are listening to subpar fidelity . Peace out .

Sounds good . Who can argue with that logic .

oh here we go . I will attempt to answer all incoming questions to the best of my abilities . Who was disrespected ? Any cable that it's profit mark up is greater than 500% which puts too many to list .

The audiophile market seems to have a mind (or no mind) of it's own . You have not realized this ?

Exactly , Who cares ? i sure do not . Some others wish everyone would spend more money on cables for some reason . Are they affiliated or making money some how ? If it is a livelihood i understand the fever determination to have that stance . Otherwise it is just the get what i have mentality . 

Not the same statement that made no sense as it did last time you posted it . They stay in business because gullible people like you buy them and the profit margins are insane to rational people .

I just went to hear some $15,000 PBN speakers this weekend at a fellow audiophile's house this . The wires he was using were ten dollars a foot . Needless to say the sound was superb .

if you are referring to me kjanki you are mislead . I hear a sound signature in all cables that have been in my system . Not much more to say on that topic . Next statement please 

jmcgrogan2 - If you wish to carry on a two way conversation with me let's do it in private . You are the type who wants to open these types of conversations by putting members dialogue in quotes and go around rebutting anything you do not agree with . Just accept the fact your statement was illogical like the continued shilling of overpriced cables .ok . Thanks

You guys are too much . I would venture to guess neither if you would act the way you do here in public . Cant imagine you would tell a stranger to their face they were or are acting immature . Carry on boys with the good fight .

This sums up my whole point . He was a stranger i had just met . Why would i feel the need to tell him what cables he should be using ? Same goes here on the forum with your my opinion of what cables need to be used to get great sound . 

just answered that question

One wire does not suit all amp speaker interactions . So to say brand A is best does not work . 

Here is a way to explain the overpriced cables : Take and compare a $5000 amplifier with a $5000 cable . Lets take a close look at the materials and costs to build both . Amplifier - God knows how many actual parts ? Think of the labor involved in making it . Now look at the cable . You have a handful of materials to assemble . How many companies smelt and extrude the wire themselves ? If they outsource this they are paying materials and a hour of assembly , packaging .. ect 

great , we got melbguy back . Took a cable discussion to do it . Now the sharks are all in the water circling .

I am not saying i will never spend more money than i do now . Once i have tried all the wire with costs that are warranted i might be curious to try more wires . I do not expect better results because they cost more . Just read an article where the owner of Shunyata made claims that other Wire companies actually use inferior wire in the base model so there next level sounds better . So with that theory their mid priced would be on par with non audiophile producers of wire . Disregard the melbguy statement above . Must have been reading a different page when i responded 

Dynaquest4 - Your very first post here ! . Welcome . I think we will get along swimmingly !

chrshan37 wrote above . Like it . No ,LOVE IT !!!!

What Ford or Kia owner thinks their car is in the same class as a Porsche ? 

I would like to add to this discussion the president of audio manufacturer Bryston James Tanners post over on Audicircle if i may 

Here are my thoughts on cables - wrote this a number of years ago but as far as I know the physics have not changed.


"GETTING WIRED

 
There is not a day that goes by where I do not get asked what cable Bryston recommends with our amplifiers. Hopefully the following will assist you in weeding through some of these complex issues. 

Part of the problem is that there is an awful lot of marketing going on and not much science in some cases. The ‘elaborate packaging’ of these interconnects and speaker cables may make you feel warm and fussy but the electrical characteristics are still the primary issue of concern. Simply stated the geometry (where the plus is relative to the minus) of a cable determines the inter-relationship between the measured performance of a specific cable. These measured performance criteria are called the ‘Primary Constants’. They are R–resistance, L–inductance, C–shunt capacitance and G–shunt conductance. You can play around with all types of exotic packaging and add-on appendages you like but ultimately the measured performance (primary constants) tell the tale.

Bryston does not think cables should be 'voiced' to sound a specific way. The best cable is NO cable at all so we contend that the best cable is the cable that changes the signal the least. 

COAX INTERCONNECT CABLES:
An analogue Preamp/Amplifier connection is a ‘high impedance interface’ therefore; you are looking for low measured Capacitance. An interconnect cable acts like a capacitor in the signal path so the better that capacitor the better the interconnect. We use an interconnect wire with (very low capacitance) and the RCA connectors are made for us in Switzerland. The RCA cables ‘make and break ground’ first and last when connecting and disconnecting. This prevents ugly pops and bangs from going through your system with the possible negative results.

XLR INTERCONNECT CABLES:
The XLR cables we use are also very low in capacitance. Actually the XLR cable we are currently using is in fact low noise balanced microphone cable with 100% shield coverage against RF. The advantage of Balanced XLR cables is that they have a noise canceling effect know as ‘common mode noise reduction’. This helps prevent noise and hum from affecting your system. With today’s complexity of audio and video surround systems this is a big plus, so if you ‘got em-use em’.

DIGITAL CABLES:
With ‘Digital’ interconnects things are a lot different. The wavelengths of digital signals are ‘very short’ (same for FM) so the lengths and terminations are much more critical than with the analogue signals previously discussed. When the wavelength of the signal the cable is used for approaches 1/30th of the length of the cable then transmission line effects start to appear and much more attention has to be paid to the connection and termination. If not then reflections and cancellation of data is a real possibility. For instance the AES/EBU digital connection on the back of the Bryston SP3 should be used with a cable having an impedance of 110 ohms. 

VIDEO CABLES:
Video cables also operate at very high frequencies – typically 5-6 MHz for Composite and S-Video and 8-30 MHz for Component Video depending on the scan rate and resolution. So again understanding the wavelengths of the signals and interfaces involved is important. 

SPEAKER CABLES:
The Amplifier/Speaker interface is a ‘low impedance’ connection. Therefore, in a speaker cable you are looking for low ‘self inductance’ (because inductance rolls off the top end) as opposed to ‘low capacitance’ required in the RCA or XLR analogue interconnect. For speaker cables we use a stranded 9 gauge linear crystal copper with ‘Heavily Gold plated’ Spade lugs or Expandable Banana plugs specially made for Bryston. 

A/C POWER CABLES:
When you plug your power cord into the wall outlet you are in 'SERIES' with all the wire on the other side of the wall all the way back to the power source. The small length of power cord from the wall to the amp is insignificant compared to the miles of wire it is connected to. As long as the power cord can deliver the current and voltage required to drive the amplifier to full power it is as good as it can get.

There are 4 basic things to remember about these issues:

1. The connection should be of similar metals (preferably gold) and be airtight. If not airtight it will break down molecularly over time and begin to rectify or produce a diode effect on the signal. 

2. With all the RF floating around today the better the ‘Shield’ on the interconnect the less intrusive the RF will be.

3. The connection between your analogue Source components (Preamplifier, CD Player, Tuner, DVD Player etc.) is a ‘High Impedance’ connection and the interface between your power amplifier and your speakers is a ‘Low Impedance’ connection. So, the requirements are totally different for optimizing these interfaces.

4. Digital and Video cables are much more susceptible to reflection/phase/cancellation problems because of their short wavelengths relative to cable length.

As you can see from the above, no surprise that people hear differences in cables when connected to the variety of equipment in the market today. Given the differences in input and output impedance’s between transistor and tube gear, the lack of understanding of the high impedance and low impedance interfaces, the world of RF, and the digital/video connection issues no wonder we have these differences of opinion. 

RECOMMENDATIONS:
I highly recommend keeping the speaker wires as short as possible and utilizing XLR balanced lines if available. Given the choice of long interconnects and short speaker leads or short interconnects and long speaker leads – choose long interconnects (preferably Balanced) and short speaker leads. With digital and video cables finding out the sending and termination requirements is very important due to the very short wavelengths relative to cable lengths involved. 

The cables Bryston recommends represent a scientific approach to these issues and are the cables we use in all our professional studio installations. All of these cables are available through Bryston’s Website (www.bryston.com) or our dealers if you wish. "

jmcgrogan wrote "This thread makes me wonder if car enthusiasts on automobile websites bash Mercedes and Porsche, because obviously any Ford or Kia will do." 

If you look at the bodies of a Kia and Porsche or under the hoods of a Kia and a Porsche the differences will be obvious to any human with a brain . If you dress two cables of the same gauge and construction with the same fancy jackets and cut them open to look at you will not see the difference . So this luxury car comparison is strange .

knghifi wrote 
Your bottom line for a timepiece is different than others.  To some, a Rolex is sense of style or accomplishment.   I'm proud owner of 4 Rolexes in different styles.   In an unexpected consequence, 2 have appreciated 3X and the other 2, 2X.   How much has your Seiko appreciated?


Any chance in your wires appreciating ?

jl35 - wrote
"wires might not appreciate in value, but if you buy used, usually you can use them few years and sell them for what you paid...so wires are often the best deal in audio..."

So true . Once these have been purchased by someone from a retailer new and enter the used market is when we see their true market value and sensible people drive that market . Thanks to those who buy them at the grossly inflated retail prices . 

Has anyone ever done or know of any info on a part cost analysis of any major brand cable makers ? I have seen breakdown of other gear before in professional reviews.

Manufacturing costs can be figured out for most consumer products made and sold .

Why the mystery for audiophile cables i ask ? Please enlighten me .

What i do not get is some members want to just close the door on discussions they feel have been discussed too many times or they do not agree with. What you fail to realize is there are new members joining daily who have yet to state their opinions on topics . It is self centered that you feel since you have voiced your opinion that no others are needed . 

rfsayles wrote 
"maplegrovemusic, after reading your quote of James Tanners explanation about power cords "insignificant compared to the miles of wire it is connected to...blah, blah, blah" I’m confident I would never own a Bryston. Because apparently, he don’t listen to what happens in "real" world conditions with the last 3 feet. Mr. Tanners "scientific" theory sounds so logical and convincing if I didn’t know better but, it just doesn’t win out against what my ears have experienced for more than two decades. To bad Caelin Gabriel doesn’t make an amplifier..."

I am happy for you . I am not posting to change your mind about hifi beliefs . Just stating mine is all .

nonoise - No it was not aimed at you . 

Knghifi - Do you realize if you and another person are present when you are swapping cables that the two of might not agree what sounds "better" between the two of you ?  One can simply comprehend the differences between a kia and a porsche . The labor hours and the materials in the cars is evident . That cannot be said between quality cables of a high value and a modest value .