"Oh, you fell for the oldest trick in the book chief, high end audio cables." Maxwell Smart
why do people feel the need to buy expensive cable
I have tried expensive cables and one's moderately priced. I would say there were some differences but I can't actually say the expensive cables were better. IMHO I believe a lot of people buy expensive cables because they don't actual trust their ears and are afraid of making a mistake. They figure the expensive cables are better for the fact they cost more. If you have a difference of opinion or share the same thoughts, I would like to hear about it.
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10-29-15: Mapman " ... in some cases, a power cord might serve a shielding function against RFi and/or EMI noise, but neither of those are necessarily a problem to start with in all cases." I think Mapman hit a bullseye with this remark, which I think applies to all cables, not just PCs. And it accounts for why the same cable can sound different in different systems or, even, different in differing places in the same system. |
I do believe that effective shielding against noise IS perhaps the most valuable function that any wire can provide that is most likely to make a difference in sound quality in many cases. I've found Pangea 14 series to accomplish this most effectively, as designed and advertised. I'm sure many others do as well. Its not rocket science and need not cost a fortune IMHO. The fact that Pangea and I am sure others CAN accomplish this for fairly modest cost is something worth noting. |
There are volumes of research on why people buy luxury goods. High end audio is a luxury item and within high end audio expensive cables are even more of a luxury. The literature is pretty clear on a consensus view. Buying a luxury item makes someone feel good about themselves. Whether or not the cables out perform lesser priced cables is somewhat besides the point as long as the buyer perceives them as a good value. Whether or not someone else considers the purchase to be a good value is also besides the point. In some cases, external criticism of the purchases reinforces the purchaser's positive feelings. |
By and large, according to many reviews and many comments by individuals, and regardless of whatever silly arguments naysayers might come up with, the more expensive cables are the best sounding cables. That is not to say that the most expensive cables on Earth are the best sounding ones, necessarily, but they should get you into the ballpark. By the same token, if you purchase some High Fidelity cables they should At the very least get you on the ball park. Of someone is sporting some $105,000 Rockport Hyperion speakers and a $102,000 Walker Audio turntable what's the harm in say $20,000 worth of cables? I don't begrudge anyone buying a $205,000 Ferrari California. Live and let die, I say. |
The difference in performance between a $205000 Ferrari and an every man's Toyota is pretty clear. The difference in performance between various wires is often not so clear. Other than price. That's the difference. I agree people can and should feel good about buying whatever they want. If they are happy in the end, all is well. So its a reasonable answer to say the reason they do it is to make themselves happy, whatever the cost. Audiophiles are notoriously hard to please when it comes to the toys they love most. So there you go. The merits of one cable versus another and the value proposition is a much different and more complicated story. So there you go. An easy path and a harder one..... |
"Like i have stated before the price of copper is $5 a pound . So , it is not the price of the copper . What's left ? Only referring to copper cables as they are the most popular ." Sorry. I thought you were speaking English. I should have known that a direct answer to a direct question wouldn't go over all that well. So what type of answer were you looking for, if not a direct one? If you can't come up with anything, we'll understand. |
There are some basics when it comes to cable that can be measured. Then there's everything else that can't or is on the cutting edge of what can be known and demonstrated. I think the question is whether the price of admission to 'what if' is what should be debated. Some answers in the affirmative can justify a price increase if it's labor intensive or if it requires some exotic metallurgy. Some answers that still remain in doubt should be looked at with a discerning eye (and ear). Through all the years in audiophile history there have been some killer systems that used some old, tried and trued cables that did the job. Some basic tweaks along the way with coatings, purity, dielectrics, etc are probably all that were and are needed. Interfaces between amp and speaker should be taken into consideration as well. Beyond that, I"m at a loss to say. All the best, Nonoise |
The purchase of a luxury good may or may not make the purchaser happy, but it does make them happy about themselves. It's an affirmation of how they see themselves and their position in society. It's a testament to someone's economic status and discernment. Notice that the two most common rebuttals to those who question the wisdom of expensive cables are variations of "you can't afford it" and "your system or hearing isn't of high enough quality to judge". |
mapman, You brought up that the difference between a Ferrari and a Toyota is easy to understand. That's why when you buy a Ferrari you are not hearing guys on car forums arguing that the Toyota is better. On the opposite side of the spectrum when a guy spends 50k on cables you are going to get everyone and his brother questioning your purchase. There is no way you can prove your 50k in cables is better than some guys 5k in cables. And that is why I think there is so much discrepancy when it comes to cables. |
"10-30-15: Onhwy61 There are volumes of research on why people buy luxury goods. High end audio is a luxury item and within high end audio expensive cables are even more of a luxury. The literature is pretty clear on a consensus view. Buying a luxury item makes someone feel good about themselves. " Just because research is done and papers are written, doesn’t mean you have the answers. Most papers are published because the people writing them are pushed to do so. That aside, psychology is an extremely difficult science to use effectively. I have a degree in it, but I chose a different career path just for this reason. We know so little about how the mind really works. Science hasn’t even scratched the surface. To assume that high end audio, and cables especially, are just luxuries is just plain wrong. That may be the case for some people, but I suspect the numbers are extremely low. I could easily argue that cables are a tool to most audiophiles. Take Audiogon, for example. I could quote thousands of posters on the topic of cables, and show that the cables intended use, is a tool to either fix a sonic issue within a system, or a general tool used with the intention of increasing sound quality overall. I think you would be hard pressed to come up with a small handful of quotes where the poster is referring to his cables as a status symbol type purchase. I just don't see the evidence for it. |
We have some really smart people here on this site ......and ones that been around the '' audiophile hobby '' for a long time as well as ones who have very strong opinions with good intentions to inform as well as impart their observations. Nobody is exactly right here and haven't we all learned, especially with CABLES is that to buy what sounds good to YOU. That is the bottom line .... However, why I am adding my 2 cents now is what has been brought up briefly here and should be reinforced is that the markup on these cables is crazy ....some have touched on that as I have noted, but some of these companies and they are the '' bigger ones '' with the '' bigger names '' have a mark - up of anywhere between 60-80% on their manufacturing cost. I understand that it is free enterprise system .....not my point. What is my point is there are some cable manufacture's who have been at it for a long time whose materials, products to their actual cost charge only 20-40% of markup. But there us the belief and the reason for the OP's statement that the more money the better the cable which is NOT always the case. This came directly from an established and successful audio dealer who has since retired..... who taught me to look for value / performance from a sold company and you will never go wrong - or lose a lot of money when you do go to sell it. Especially with cables !!!! There are some cables out there are well engineered, well designed at a good price that are just as good as the crazy expensive cables in which not matter how much money we have to spend.....get to keep some of that money in our pockets .....and use it elsewhere in the system. Also, one last point ....I am also very leery of any cable company who does not display or won't show a cross - sectional view of their cables construction. " We don't due to competitive reasons " ......hmmmmm okay and sorry but don't believe you and maybe they should add some electrical lights to their cable as that will always make it sound better or some magical dust or even better yet ....big electrical boxes. |
If I can hear a big difference and can truly afford it, it's worth it. If I can't hear much of a difference or can't afford it, it's not worth it. Is it a good value? Never. That is the nature of Luxury. I think no-one here is saying luxury cables are value packed. We're saying that in Our system to Our ears there is a big difference, or not. Some refuse to allow that written-in-stone, logic-based assumptions could be derailed by audio reality. And that's a shame because it is one of the biggest handicaps you can have in this crazy hobby/obsession. Some things that shouldn't work really do matter. The flip side of that is being a sucker. The snake oil is out there and it flies in the face of logic too. The smart audiophile uses his ears and concludes what is right or wrong for His system. None of this is new information. We all know it. What this thread is really about is pride and trash talk. No-one can prove anything. |
After 17 years as an audiophile, the key is honestly to try lots of different types of cable at different price points, because the results are so system dependent. In my pretty respectable system with a Levinson amp and preamp, Revel Studios, PS audio PWD, the best sounding interconnects and speaker cables came from Patrick Cullen at Cullen Cable, and thats after trying several $1k+ speaker cables and interconnects. In previous systems over the years, I compared boutique budget cables of those days to high end stuff and the high end stuff won, so you just have to be open minded and trust your ears. |
Garebare, I know the mark ups on cables is crazy! But even the mark up on speakers is very high. I was having a discussion with a friend of mine on what it cost to build certain speakers. (Not to pick on a certain manufacturer) but we were discussing Wilson audio. He figures it cost 20 percent of retail to build a speaker. So for an example. If the Alexia retails for 52k than their cost should be around 10k. I would say that is a very big markup from manufacturing to retail. |
Mapman, actually he didn't try any expensive cables. I trust no one here actually thinks that $1K+ speaker cables are expensive. Hint: they're not. That's kind of entry level at this stage of the game. Now, if he said he tried $10K speaker cables and preferred the ones he's got then maybe we'd have something to talk about. |
Hey Taters ....as has been brought out in this thread ; cables were No#1 with speakers a close second. I am experiencing this right now. I had the same cable manufacturer in my system for close to 20 years. I have / had pretty much their top of the line .....I recently auditioned another cable manufacturer goods and who some consider them as ''high fi'' or middle of the road, ( but have been around since 1987 or so ) came out with a new top of their line series a few years back and is making me change my whole approach to my system .....it finally sounds like real music .....and they are about 50-60% less on the retail side than the that they are replacing. Just goes to show - it is all about system synergy |
It's always about system synergy starting with the room. Wires come last once all the rest is tuned in. If things are tackled in the right order biggest fish first then finding the right wires should not be nearly as hard. If things are off to start with only so much to gain out of different wires. You could end up spending money on wires that would have been better served elsewhere before. |
"He figures it cost 20 percent of retail to build a speaker. So for an example. If the Alexia retails for 52k than their cost should be around 10k. I would say that is a very big markup from manufacturing to retail." He's just figuring. Only Wilson knows what it costs them to make a pair of speakers, and they're not going to tell anyone, including they're dealers. Product cost is the single most guarded secret in any business. If someone in a company that has access to that info tells you what they pay for something, they're lying. It could also be a scam like the auto industry and invoice pricing. |
Geoff - The word "expensive" is relative to the rest of the system, the speakers/amp/preamp/sources. $10k on cables is not expensive if the rest of the system is worth $100k. However if the rest of the system is worth $12k, then $10k on cables is very expensive and would most likely not be the most efficient money spent in terms of improved sound quality per dollar. In my system, I think its expensive and inefficient to spend $5k total on cables, which is where I'd be if I spend $1k on a single set of interconnects. I can get more SQ improvement for the same money elsewhere. But that's of course for my system, thus the need to be open-minded about different levels of cables, results will vary for different people. I also have a dedicated power line for example, that might change things dramatically in terms of how cables respond. |
...and had nothing of value to say, nothing. Much like half of the other responses. So what if you took a cable apart and think it is made from wire you can get at a hardware store? Not all cable companies are doing that, many create their own alloys, they use exotic versions of oxygen free copper, they try annealing and baking in ovens at different temperatures and times, many are cryo treating cables. They are experimenting on systems that are obviously allowing them to hear what guys with DIY wire will NEVER, ever hear in their systems. So what if you "listened" to an expensive cable and couldn't hear any difference. When someone has a question about expensive cable, those who can't hear the difference have nothing to add to the conversation that should mean anything to the person who has the questions. Who should you "trust" or "believe", the audiophiles who have figured out how to get a system that is detailed enough to hear the differences in any cables, interconnects, or power cords, or the nimrods that can't hear the difference between anything? Notice a common denominator among those who think it's ludicrous to spend any serious money on cable? They all have DIY cable and stock power cords. |
No, the word expensive is relative to the highest cost of cables which is what $10-20K. It also depends on the person, what HE thinks is expensive for him. AND the word expensive reflects how much importance the person places on cables relative to the rest of the system. For example, just read the threads on High Fidelity Cables or Tara Labs Cables, you will find those folks who place extreme importance to cables. Fir them it's a paradigm shift, where most of the money on the system in some cases, I happen to know one case, is spent on cables. Thus cables become the overriding concern and cost. I myself eschew cables and have almost none in my system. You could say I went the other way. Ha ha ha |
Certain cables give you the "perceived illusion" of an expansive soundstage with tremendous depth, more "air" around the voices and instruments, and this is true. I believe this is due to cable geometry more so than exotic copper or silver. One thing they DO NOT do (and this one's my favorite), is "Gerry out of the way of the music". That phrase drives me mad. In fact, I believe they are doing the complete opposite.They are getting in between the crap wire inside your amplifier going to its binding posts, and the crap wire in your speaker going from its binding post to the drivers. Adding expensive speaker cables does not miraculously unlock hidden detail and a vast, expansive soundstage that's just waiting to get out of your amplifier. That's nonsense. If that were the case, then your amplifier would be wired with the same expensive cables. Expensive cables IMO are adding a certain signature of their own based on cable geometry and materials used to give you the perceived illusion of the soundstage you're listening to. |
MGM wrote, "The only item in ones system that has a sound signature is ones speakers . The cables used are going to determine how the drivers move . Find the cable that moves the drivers to the speakers full potential and then you have "The best cable for your system" Same goes with amplifiers." Or put another way, the only thing in one's system WITHOUT a sound signature is the speakers, which output precisely the accumulated sound of the various components of the system, including the cables. ;-) |
earlier in the thread I had some comments about my recent experience with 'crazy expensive' Tara Labs Grandmaster Evolution 1.5m XLR cables. one thing I mentioned was that they 'got out of the way of the music'. Devilboy writes; One thing they DO NOT do (and this one's my favorite), is "Get out of the way of the music". That phrase drives me mad. In fact, I believe they are doing the complete opposite. I have to strongly disagree. no doubt some cables add coloration to the music with what else they do to transfer the signal. but some cables do actually further remove distortion from the signal path. and you can hear that. these very expensive particular Tara Labs Grandmaster interconnects apply some exotic technology to the equation. some of the technology could be marketing speak, some of the technology is less likely marketing speak, and some of it is easily verifiable by the user. cable geometry and metallurgy benefits pretty much is something none of us are in a position to actually verify. even assuming we believe our ears unless we go through the process of listening to various versions we are just guessing about cause and effect. so we must just accept the manufacturer's claims on those issues. looking at the quality of the actual plugs it is easy to see where the cable manufacturer went to a much higher degree of effort and expense compared to other cables. we can see this. does that actually affect the improved performance? we don't know; but our experience with plugs and outlets with power cables does indicate that these things matter. then there is the vacuum dielectric and air tube technology. we know this matters with cables. how much does it matter? we have no way of knowing really unless you would have one cable with it and one without. then we get to the HRX dual monoblock floating ground station. the cables are grounded. here we don't need to take anything on faith. we can simply plug or unplug the grounding cable and listen. now we easily hear the part where the noise floor drops dramatically and the music is revealed in much greater detail. it gets much more out of the way of the music. there are no trade-offs. crazy good. I wish for my finances it did not make such a profound difference. you can sit there and plug and unplug and hear what is happening. it then becomes a question of whether that difference is worth it or not. no question it's not hype. it's simply life priorities. I happen to have a 'borrowed' similar Tara Labs '2' steps down (Tara Labs Zero Gold) also on hand for comparison. this has an earlier version of the vacuum dielectric and grounding system. I also had the opportunity to try the Zero Evolution (the next step up above the Zero Gold) grounding box with the Grandmaster version. so I've been able to appreciate the steps up and what is doing what. in the context of your system is it worth it? happy to have anyone visit and they can plug and unplug that grounding box for themselves and listen. |
