The Intellectual People Podcast - Galen Gareis (Former Belden Wire Designer)

Good stuff, long, must listen !

You know it's intellectual when the very first comment contains the word snake-oil. Plus you know the guy knows what he's talking about, he used to work for Belden, one of the largest spark plug wire makers in the US. 

Oh wow, just noticed "The Intellectual People Podcast" also covers such deep philosophical territory as, "Does Digital Sound Better?" and "Need a Unique Mail-Order Gift?"

While I appreciate the position Galen takes, and his bravery in actually putting design elements forward in cables, to me this is lose/lose position. Nothing to gain, as the two groups are firmly entrenched in their bunkers:

1) The measuremantilsts: no matter what measurements you show them, they will never buy anything more expensive than hardware store stuff. Period.

2) the subjective people: measurements mean nothing. Proof is in the pudding. Read: actual experience 

It was easy to imagine videos like this being made 30 to 40 years ago. Back in the late 1980's to early 1990's the idea of wire being an important component was rare and unusual. Stereo Review was after all one of the nations largest high end audio magazines, and their most respected reviewer and tester Julian Hirsch was a staunch proponent of measurement uber alles.   

According to old Julian, and all those unfortunates like myself who grew up reading him, wire gauge is all that matters. If they measure the same, they are the same. End of story. 

The story is of course a wet dream fantasy of all those thinking they can do high end on the cheap. Sorry, but your lamp cord just ain't a gonna cut it.  

Even back then we knew better. J Gordon Holt had been writing at the same time, only his view being the listener is the final arbiter of performance.  

We ran this race, Stereo Review came up a day late and a dollar short, literally- or maybe it was millions of dollars short. Stereo Review, deservedly defunct, can now be found archived on-line, having been dispatched to a much earned plot in the graveyard of bad ideas. 

What continues to astound me is here we are now approaching half a freaking century and yet still all these luddites and Rip Van Winkels are caught in a Rocky Horror Time Warp.  

Let's do the time warp again! Only this time maybe not get stuck in the past?

I have just submitted two weeks ago an in depth review of the Iconoclast by Belden top line IC (both RCA and XLR) and SC cables, and BAV (Belden Audio/Video) Power Cords to appear at Dagogo.com. I used them extensively with no less than six speaker systems of varying genres in a variety of configurations.

Briefly, these are the most impressive cables I have handled, and they are built according to a stringent set of criteria in terms of optimization of geometry, conductor material, AWG, etc., all vetted by measurement. They are the most serious effort at making a measurably idealized cable I have encountered.

Galen Gareis is a world-class authority (retired Principle Product Engineer from Belden) on cable properties. He is a humble man with an encyclopedic knowledge of cables, which becomes evident when you watch him discuss it. The Audiophile Society of San Francisco had a 3 hour video of Galen plowing through in-depth measurements, testing, etc. involved in Iconoclast cables; I believe it also is on Youtube. I encourage those interested in a cable suitable to build superior systems to pay special attention to Iconoclast by Belden Cables. I hope the community will enjoy my review. :)

Thanks for the feedback!

My Cabledyne Silver Virtuoso speaker cables were designed by an ex Belden engineer too, (worked there for over 20 years) and he didn't put out a video but they're some damn fine sounding cables. Maybe he should have. Maybe it was timing. Too bad the company is no more. 

All the best,
Nonoise

Doug,
Are you now a cable engineer? How would you know any of what you spew in paragraph 2 other than reading it on the Iconoclast website? I have no problem with your opinion on the cables and also your belief in the veracity of the science, but enough is enough. 

Doug does not need to be a tailor to know what suits him

“Nothing to gain, as the two groups are firmly entrenched in their bunkers:

1) The measuremantilsts: no matter what measurements you show them, they will never buy anything more expensive than hardware store stuff. Period.

2) the subjective people: measurements mean nothing. Proof is in the pudding. Read: actual experience.

@thyname,

You’ve nailed it! 

thyname,
You missed my point completely. If doug wants to be known as a journalist with any sense of objectivity, he needs to avoid being a propaganda conduit for the manufacturers. Simply parroting what Galen says, one of many cable "studs" by the way, is not journalism but marketing. This is exactly the type of nonsense that has rendered the opinion of most audio reviewers moot.

The community will clearly see the extent to which I went in working on the Iconoclast article, and the basis for my comments when the review is published. 

I guess you just dont understand. Has nothing to with hard work. What you wrote will not stand and I am completely shocked that you dont see the problem.

What seems to be the problem officer?

Briefly, these are the most impressive cables I have handled, and they are built according to a stringent set of criteria in terms of optimization of geometry, conductor material, AWG, etc., all vetted by measurement. They are the most serious effort at making a measurably idealized cable I have encountered.

and.... the liquid metal eliminates the frozen atomic lattice structure that brings about the problems with conductivity vs dielectric and how they play off one another. thus requiring such perfected geometry and so on.

The liquid metal eliminates almost all the problems encountered in audio ’wire’ cable design ----by simply not having them.

thyname

Well if you dont understand you probably never will but I will give it one more try. 

So Doug is supposed to be a reviewer who works for an ezine; both he and the zine are supposed to be objective. But, and I doubt Doug did a bunch of research on cable design before he wrote his article, he claims all of these attributes that read like they came off the Iconoclast website. More forgivable, but just as irresponsible, would be if he was "educated" by Galen on cable design.  

Third paragraph reads like a biography written about Hitler by Goebbels. Now I am not saying either Galen or Doug are Nazis or even bad people (obvious but necessary to point this out in this day and age) but what he wrote is nothing more than a honeyed synopsis on Gavin to add credibility to the cable and the company. 

So this comes off as an ad because it is an ad. I have no problem with any reviewer stating that he loves a cable but this is way over the top and lousy journalism from a supposed objective source of information.

So I am faced with this type of ad and what am I or anyone supposed to think? I can only guess that this type of journalism is written only with gaining favor with the manufacturer in mind. Why not just have the manufacturer write the review?

Perhaps its just me because no one has piped in, but I have had enough to this type of stuff. Hurts the industry and should insult everyone's intelligence. At least it should cause a very long pause.  

audition_audio starts with a wrong assumption in regard to me once again, and develops as string of baseless conjectures.

I have for 14 years regularly conducted reviews of cables, and of my own accord, not for fulfillment of requests of the magazine, issued interviews with cable designers to learn as much as I can about cable design. The reviews are typically technical. I can produce the Interviews, if you wish. At one time Constantine Soo, Publisher was shocked to learn I had issued a technical Interview with almost all reviews I conduct, never published, and he discussed the possibility of publishing them. Seeing as how I have corrected audition_audio’s baseless insinuations prior, and he/she keeps producing them, I am stating publicly that I have every one of these interviews to prove that I have delved into cable manufacturing more than average.

In the case of Iconoclast, perhaps audition_audio is unaware that a particular aspect of Galen’s intent in making cables is to make design information available to all, thus lengthy technical videos are on youtube for all to see. Go look at them and tell me I’m wrong about my statements about the depth of design knowledge. I watched some of those videos. Perhaps some people here are threatened by the information about the company and the cables. Anyone can watch the videos and see for themselves the depth of expertise.

I am being mischaracterized once again by audition_audio as though my interests are questionable. My intent on contributing my initial post about Galen and Iconoclast was because, 1. It may seem obvious to most that this IS a thread about Iconoclast, and 2. I have what I feel is an important article to share with the community. My intent was to call attention to my writing, which in the article addresses the old objectivist/subjectivist debate regarding cabling. The post was an ad for my writing, not the cables. The discussion about Iconoclast and Galen were to substantiate that this would be a serious look at cable design in an obvious article about how cables sound. audition_audio had no clue about that, but instead of asking questions, he/she jumps to conclusions and piles on.

I requested previously that audio_audition kindly refrain from attempting to diminish my reputation by making insinuations, but he/she does not refrain. I have corrected him/her publicly repeatedly, but it persists. It would be nice if audition_audio would learn to ask questions instead of letting imagination run wild. :(

Why am I not discussing with audition_audio? Because I’m not inclined to talk with people whom I have corrected, and still attempt to damage my reputation.

This entire debate is a living proof of what I state at the beginning of these thread ---- the position of Galen is a lose / lose proposition.

The "objectivists" hate cable. They believe they do nothing, just as most of the things audio.

They basically have the following attitude:

1) Cable manufacturers that do not mention anything on technical aspects of their building process: snake oil. Hate.

2) Cable manufacturers who explain all technical aspects, and provide measurements: hate even more. Big time snake oil. Why? Because it rattles their own theory and the foundation of their beliefs.

This is why this is all lose / lose. No matter what technical explanation one provides, objectivists will never be happy. They will always say things like: beyond audible effects, measurements are done wrong, no impact on sound, blah, blah, blah....

No Doug your article is an attempt to draw attention to both your writing and the cables. An attempt to sell both. I am done and I will try to refrain from commenting in the future because you obviously dont see the problem and never will.

Some very interesting comments for sure!  

Guys, I think maybe the point here is missed...Galen, knew cables sounded different and went about trying to "measure" why, but more importantly challenge himself to design a cable that both measured well and sounded great.  To his credit he states that the better copper wire (Ultra Pure OFC) sounds better but can't be measured...even though the basic measurements are the same - got it? An engineer admitting to audiophiles what we have been saying - "I don't care about measurement, it sounds better!" Many engineers would never admit this- ...Lot's of variables go into design (not just resistance, capacitance and inductance) and the variables are interdependent...i.e. change one and the others change. So which ones are most important? If you read his papers and watch the video I think he would suggest TIME. Then it seems he challenged himself to design a cable by measurement and then see if the design parameters resulted in a good sounding cable by listening...so, he used measurements and his ears. And sent his cables to a lot of audiophiles for listening tests...I really can't fault him for his approach. Why don't you just audition them like every other cable you are interested in? See if you like them? 

I wouldn't fault Doug for listening and posting his listening results. He liked them - compared to other very well respected expensive cables. Just because he listed the manufacturers design goals - which btw, MANY cable reviews I read state some, if not all design goals and approaches, doesn't diminish what he heard when he tested the cables on multiple systems... I appreciate when reviewers write their opinions as it broadens my choices and thinking when frankly, I can't begin to test as many things as dozens of various reviewers can. 

Interestingly, referring to time.... The liquid metal works best (compared to all other potentials in the 'cable' world) in the time domain.

re reviewers, one reads their works and then becomes familiar with how that person does things, and from that, one can gain useful information for one's own self search in the audio world. It's a simple equation.

Have any Audiogon regulars heard them?

Yes. At least one, @douglas_schroeder . He wrote a review about them. See above

I read the very positive review but I haven’t heard much else. I was wondering if others could corroborate.

Ok, I bit...I am getting a full iconoclast loom sent to me for audition - will let everyone know my thoughts - good, bad or indifferent...supposed to arrive next week...will give it appropriate time to settle (maybe even break in? :)  - - sorry Doug, couldn't resist...btw, I tried, and own the amp that Doug really likes and I guess Doug has a review that is forthcoming...well before he reviewed it...I was surprised at how good it was...I thought I would NEVER own class D...and I am a tube guy...I am still going through counseling as a result...lol. Be patient, I will give these a cables a serious go - 

Awesome! Finally someone in the real world actually getting these cable. I look forward to your impressions.

For some reason (not strange to me), people I know who value the benefits of cables never tried these. And the measurements crowd, typically 99% correlation with cable deniers, well... they never buy expensive cables no matter what... the measurements are.
Did you order the Iconoclast cables direct from the website?

I emailed / called Bob Howard from the website and discussed my needs with him and also called a couple of referrals of other users to get their impressions. 

English is not my native language and one in which I still struggle regularly and consistently so please kindly forgive this question but isn't referring to yourself or your efforts as "intellectual" actually an suggestion, indication, and reflection that you are probably not intellectual at all? 

This thread strikes me as the blind leading the blind. The article is meant to be impressive, but technically is super weak, but if it suits what you want to believe, it must be true.  Same people who going gaga for Galen, pun intended, also go gaga for Ted, who comparatively, probably barely knows what a cable is.  Can't have it both ways boys and girls.

Not so fast, grasshopper....just kidding...maybe the cables I am trying will sound both good AND measure well :) - - -  still evaluating...based on the sound btw...not measurements...

Dudes like Dltech are perfect examples of what I keep saying all along in this thread: #measurementmorons will never buy any cables regardless of what measurements and technical details you provide for them. It’s a lost cause. A lose / lose proposition.

When someone comes onto a thread and does nothing but casually toss out irrelevant personal slights while bringing nothing to the conversation, you gotta wonder what they are compensating for? Do people over 18 still use hashtags?

thyname1,207 posts04-22-2021 7:35pmDudes like Dltech are perfect examples of what I keep saying all along in this thread: #measurementmorons will never buy any cables regardless of what measurements and technical details you provide for them. It’s a lost cause. A lose / lose proposition.

Very funny! And what exactly did YOU bring to this discussion? This?


dletch2161 posts04-18-2021 10:07pmThis thread strikes me as the blind leading the blind. The article is meant to be impressive, but technically is super weak, but if it suits what you want to believe, it must be true. Same people who going gaga for Galen, pun intended, also go gaga for Ted, who comparatively, probably barely knows what a cable is. Can't have it both ways boys and girls.

dletch2, When an engineer/designer has put out boatloads of technical information, I do not need to do a highly technical review. I only need point to it. 

I do not think you understand the audiophile community well, at least beyond a cursory comparison. You strike me as one of the objectivist types, and lump any cable enthusiasts together without much sophistication. Were you more informed, you would know that those who would listen to Galen would most likely not be very impressed by Ted's work. 

Why don't you share what cables you have compared in sets? Please list your system from first power cord through to speakers, and preferably present images for us. Please, go ahead and start a Virtual System here, complete with all details. Thank you. 

Were you more informed, you would know that those who would listen to Galen would most likely not be very impressed by Ted's work.

Oh give me a break. Writing for a 2nd rate online magazine makes you informed?  Those who understand cables, I mean really understand them, will think about the same, ultimately, about Galen and Ted (and any number of other companies). Whether the bamboozlement comes in the form of somewhat accurate but meaningless engineering speak, or pure fluff, the end result is the same, and ultimately is the reason why no, and I mean NO cable company every does blind public tests. For all the claims of obvious differences, they know that is not the case. If they were confident in the results of blind tests, they would do them.  Heck, Shunyata does not even show noise results for audio on their website, they show medical equipment and they don't even portray exactly the same signals side by side.


Your attempt at a call to authority is laughable. You can't adequately address the content in my posts, so you try to go after me personally.  You may want to think on that. The people with half a brain see through that.  Do you think this little part of the audio world is all that exists and that people don't have fairly active audio groups in the cities they live in where people regularly experience not only their equipment, but those of others?  For someone who claims familiarity with the industry, you seems a little out of touch with what happens on the street. The total high end audio market is barely the size of just Sonos, and while it is growing due to expansion into emerging markets, its penetration drops every year, which has made the industry self serving as it tries to maintain local revenue and struggles with irrelevance, while not seeing it orchestrates its own irrelevance. Younger generations, including ones with now significant income, are not embracing high end audio, and not embracing turntables for anything but kitsch.  One only needs to recognize the ever increasing average age of audiophiles, especially here to see that is the case. The younger generations are better educated, more informed, and believe it or not, more skeptical. "Trust me", does not fly well with them.


If you must now, most cables in my system are custom made. I like things neat and tidy, not the rats nest in so many so-called system pictures. Everything (now), is just the right length. No more, no less.  Interconnects are made with Mogami 2534, but the runs are all short so the capacitance does not matter. Subs are 2549. Limited frequency range so less EMI concern. I use Furutech XLR connectors, mainly because I got 20 of them at next to nothing. I have no illusions they sound better than Neutrik, but I they do look a lot better. AECO for my RCA. Jewellery. I like the way they look and easy to work with. On the non DSP speakers, custom 8 awg for bass, Kimber 8PR for mid/highs. I use Audionote spades, they crimp perfectly.  I also have some Goertz cables. Normally I am listening to speakers with a direct digital feed, so no need. I didn't plan to make my own phono cable but did that too. It was that or open up the phono stage and modify the values for proper cartridge loading. I just started with a longer wire and kept shortening it till the capacitive loading was correct then tweaked the resistor in the connector. Dirty secret in audio, most people's cartridges are poorly matched to their phono stages. No where near optimum.   I used to use shielded instrument AC cords, but looked a bit crappy. Ran into ESP at AES pre-covid. Nice guy, sure a bit distorted view of how electricity works, but kept the spin to a minimum.  Ended up buying 5 cables, custom to my desired length, with several of them with right angles IEC. No difference in sound, but really cleaned things up and looks great. The DSP speakers have custom made AC cables.   ..... oh, and ya, I have had many a friend drop by with expensive cables, and only twice could anyone tell a difference. With one IC, there was a very slight hum, probably faulty construction (for $1,200!), and with one set of speaker cables, by a "well-known" company, you could hear a warming when switched, but really not a warming, but a loss of high frequencies. Not at all surprising when you looked at it. 

dletch2, thank you for your additional comments. You have homemade "custom" cables and appear to not understand how to assess cables in systems. Of course, you didn’t share what cables you have compared in sets, as I requested. You provided two instances of comparison of cables in mixed sets, as though that is evidence to dismiss the efficacy of different builds. Congratulations! You follow the same ignorant errors of other highly intelligent people who use poor methodology in reaching erroneous conclusions!

You blathered on and on, never sharing the info I requested - I presume because you have not compared cables in sets. Consequently, you are clueless on this topic, an opinionated and ignorant person. You could become an asset to this site and the community, but not until you humble yourself. :(

BTW, when you boast of your homemade cables, and dismiss one of the world's foremost authorities on cables' electrical properties and sound characteristics, then I know it's a waste of time to discuss with you.  

As regards ABX, I did so and wrote about it in the ABX Comparator review at Dagogo.com 
I could care less about your opinion on ABX. 

I’m finished with this discussion.

dletch2, thank you for your additional comments. You have homemade "custom" cables and appear to not understand how to assess cables in systems.

Well isn't that a convenient and absolutely meaningless conclusion there Doug. I don't use your flawed methodology, therefore I must be wrong. Sorry Doug, when I want to detect small changes in performance, I blind test.  Are you familiar with the concept? I don't think so since you never do it, and think this mixed cable concept of yours somehow gives you super hearing and removes bias. Sorry Doug, the world does not conform to how you want it to work.

Of course, you didn’t share what cables you have compared in sets, as I requested.

Request all you want. It is a meaningless request, therefore requires no answer.  If a single cable, replaced anywhere in the signal chain provides no audible difference when using actual critical listening testing, with attempts to remove bias, then replacing the whole loom is not going to either.  Let's face it, this whole "loom" concept is nothing but manufacturers trying to extract more money from customers. I don't blame them, every company tries to do that. However, anyone who has a shred of understanding of electronics or the possible interactions a cable could have, understands it MUST be highly dependent on the two components being connected, with the possible exception of speakers in most cases, hence the concept of a full loom is again, just marketing. Using critical listening methods would help you with this.  The other advantage of a supplier insisting full loom, to reviewers, is it forces a change (and hence contact swiping / cleaning) of every connection. 

You provided two instances of comparison of cables in mixed sets, as though that is evidence to dismiss the efficacy of different builds. Congratulations! You follow the same ignorant errors of other highly intelligent people who use poor methodology in reaching erroneous conclusions!

Doug, you have explained your methodology. It is flawed and so highly susceptible to mood and bias, that it is effectively worthless. That you think you are magically infallible is the start and finish of your methodology.  In terms of actually reading what I said, I provided two instances where an actual audible change was noted. There have been high 10's of high end cable comparisons with no evident changes. I have also made changes along the way that reduced noise, and it is pretty easy to make a bad speaker cable that produces a somewhat evident change in performance, at least with somewhat quick changes.


Until you accept you are biased, have moods, and are fallible, you will continue on the flawed path. 

It’s so funny: #measurementmorons with after market cables always say one of the following excusing themselves for having them:

1) They got them for free or very cheap

2) They look good. Audio jewelry

Heck! One of them said he got a $16,000 DAC because it looks good instead of a $50 China DAC that measures the same therefore sounds the same, just because it looks good. A little subjective?

😂😂😂

When do you graduate? .... I mean from high school?

So let me do the math: I am in high school, so less than 18 years old. I joined Audiogon in 2005, when I was less than 2 years old? 
Besides, what problem do you have with what I wrote above? Triggered?

So what you are saying is in another 10 years or so, I can expect a statement with some maturity not a childish unrelated comment? Thank you for the warning.

I thought you were the authority here, established in these two long weeks since you “joined”. You can figure out what I meant with my math.

Anyways. You can carry on with winning the Internet 😉

Maybe 10 years was a low estimate.

It’s so funny: #measurementmorons with after market cables always say one of the following excusing themselves for having them:

1) They got them for free or very cheap

2) They look good. Audio jewelry 

Heck! One of them said he got a $16,000 DAC because it looks good instead of a $50 China DAC that measures the same therefore sounds the same, just because it looks good. A little subjective?

Well when doug and dltech start sparring I dont know how much more fun this could be. An armchair dilettante or a self-styled audio journalist who writes for anyone who might possibly listen. The hubris on both sides is worth 10 times the price of admission. Both of you guys need to chill and stop taking yourselves so seriously. Blind listening........system building......blah blah blah pfffft!

I always thought Douglas is a honest, down to earth guy. Not just his reviews, but personal interaction (here and other places) as well.
As for your “armchair dilettante” comment on the other guy, I fully agree. It’s the age of the Internets. I have read so many replies from these #measurementmorons types, I can practically write what they say automatically without even thinking. It’s just the same stuff they say over and over and over. It’s like in autopilot. I can honestly predict with 100% accuracy their replies to me, before I say something. It’s hilarious

15, do I hear 15? Going once, going twice, sold!

If you had to go “special” might as well go all in special. What have you got?

dletch2:
"If a single cable, replaced anywhere in the signal chain provides no audible difference when using actual critical listening testing, with attempts to remove bias, then replacing the whole loom is not going to either."

Where is the "science" in that statement dletch2? Is this a new type of science where there is no need to test your conclusion? 

thyname:
Your assessment of Doug is spot on. He is (& has been) active in advancing high end audio & an asset to this site.