why do people feel the need to buy expensive cable
I have tried expensive cables and one's moderately priced. I would say there were some differences but I can't actually say the expensive cables were better. IMHO I believe a lot of people buy expensive cables because they don't actual trust their ears and are afraid of making a mistake. They figure the expensive cables are better for the fact they cost more. If you have a difference of opinion or share the same thoughts, I would like to hear about it.
I just sprung for an Audioquest Carbon HDMI Cable that was 5 times more than the almost new LG Blu Ray player I also picked up this week. Was that wrong? 😳
I've been in this hobby for more than 40 years and have, over that time gone the expensive cable route. Those are all gone thanks to a friend who builds world class amps and pre amps for a living. I now run 16ga Duelund tinned copper for my speakers and Duelund 20ga for home made ICs. The RCAs are $4 switchcraft. The sound is incredible. Musical and open. I'd never knock anyone who has the resources and desire to spend more. We all make choices. I don't get the Porsche analogy though. How can one compare something mechanical to something passive? Of course higher grade parts on a machine will make a difference. But on wire?
I doubt that your system is completely to blame for not hearing enough of an appreciable difference in the way your system and music sounds.
The only way to determine if a cable will make an improvement to your system is to play it in your system.
Perhaps getting brand recommendations from 'goners based on their positive results will be a useful guide.
Suggest:
Consider including all categories available such as: power cords, digital power cords (for cd players ) - (JPSLABS for example), interconnect cable, speaker cable, and digital interconnect cable - (between transport and DAC).
See the lending library at THECABLECOMPANY.COM also, JPSLABS.COM
I don't buy expensive cables. I buy the ones that sound the most incredible (actually, they don't sound like anything at all). Just so happens that those are...expensive. Cables tie it all together. That system should give you goose bumps.
That’s a bit like trying to prove that classical music is superior to jazz?
Of course, it is superior. Jazz musicians don’t even know where the right notes are constantly searching for them. For instance, Jazz bassist "walks" all over the finger-board to find proper note, while classically trained bassist knows where the note is and just plays it.
Thank you....very much appreciate your positive comments.
To those who don't believe cables are worth the money, make a difference, etc....I appreciate your opinions as well and try to learn from them questioning my choices in the future with a more critical eye (ears and brain actually). The only issue I have is the apparent need to bash and insult others broadly or individually.
Nice post Zephyr24069 There has been a lot of broad-brush painting here lately. I agree that folks should buy what they want and what makes them happy with their systems. While I enjoy the discourse about the science behind different designs and materials, and while I do hear differences in components (always), cables (usually), and tweaks (sometimes), I also understand that "value" is a concept that is unique to an individual's own perception so the problem begins when people want to prescribe a universal "value" that should be adopted by all. The issue has been fueled by people so vehemently promoting and defending their points of view and by their labeling and name-calling (while sometimes humorous), which has reached a level of divisiveness I do not remember on this forum. Many posts seem to promote the idea that folks must prescribe to one of only two camps (i.e., believers or naysayers), with no middle ground. The presentation of opinions as "absolutes," the sensational and dramatized accounts of system changes (totally transformed) resulting from a cable change or turning around a fuse, the unbending use of science to say that something "can't possibly make a difference," and the amount of money charged for seemingly typical stuff (like a fuse), have the two sides lined up like a game of dodgeball.
" Because they are scientifically illiterate. People who fall for "audiophile grade" cables (or even worse, for example, "directional fuses") and similar audio trinkets are in the same league with anti vaxxers, flat earthers, lunar landing deniers, GMO panic mongers and 9/11 truthers. A bunch of sad but dangerous fantasists."
Sad to say, also not the case here ("scientifically illiterate", etc...) and I suspect with others on the forum who happen to have heard differences between stock cables/zip-cord and the cables they now own.....
I’ve posted this before and will say it again for clarity,...this is a hobby, people are free to believe and do as they will. If you don’t hear differences then don’t buy cables and furthermore, don’t insult people in broad stroke manners just because some of us don’t believe as you do....
This statement and many other similar ones on this thread and parallel threads that attempt to paint a broad stroke characterization of all audiophiles who happen to find cables make a difference, as weak-minded, pliable, easily fooled, etc...and somehow enforce your view of the world and your agenda as a truth that must apply to all is simply not true. From my side I can personally recount 3 times in the last 11 years alone where (1) I ripped out an entire loom of a highly-thought of brand of expensive power cords, went back to stock cords and determined the stock cords were more natural sounding and that as the loom of pcs had grown, a mistake had been made that resulted in accumulated house sound. Same with 2 different iterations of a combination of speaker cables and interconnects from 2 different high-end cable manufacturers at various points. Each time I either returned to stock PCs or to very low-cost interconnects and speaker cables. There were things the low cost approach cables did not give me that I determined to live without and many that I did hear that I liked. I’ve also cut into or unwrapped more than a few cables in my time to see what’s inside and realize there are a few brands out there that are simply full of shite and pulling one over on many of us music lovers.
I only ’went back’ to after-market cables because I happened to try interconnects, power cords and/or speaker wire that helped my system sound better (to me) and (for me) more natural, musical and enjoyable.
I’m not here to give examples of the "B.S." cable choices I’ve experienced, nor am I going to give the names of the brands that I ripped out of the system or the higher end brand I wound up going moving to in order to promote them. Like another poster, I am results-oriented; I would never have agreed to go back on the ’spend more/pray for good results" merry go round if I had not heard truly remarkable differences when the cables in question were put in place My only purpose here is to tell you that you are wrong about many audiophiles, including several I know well and myself that have all walked similar roads making mistakes and moving past them in various ways. We are not uneducated, unscientific or any other negative label you want to ascribe.
There seems to be a downturn/trend on Audiogon over the last couple of years and this thread and others like it which are indicative of the moving away from people helping each other to the best of their ability to a forum where people like to stir the pot, criticize others and hide behind their monikers. IMHO, not good for the hobby and for relations in general, but hey, what do I know, I like my cables and how my system sounds so I must be wrong?
The title of your topic seems to want to start arguments or fights because it is so controversial. If you have found your own answers to that question then why would drag the topic through the mud? BTW where I grew up people called potatoes, potatoes. Only uneducated, backwoods, redneck hillbillies called potatoes taters. Is that not two sentences meant to cause a fire? Would it not be best, if I thought that to be true, to remain silent?
Because they are scientifically illiterate. People who fall for "audiophile grade" cables (or even worse, for example, "directional fuses") and similar audio trinkets are in the same league with anti vaxxers, flat earthers, lunar landing deniers, GMO panic mongers and 9/11 truthers. A bunch of sad but dangerous fantasists.
Explain please. What negotiations? It seems there was an offer by A. Randi so the next step is for Fremer to accept or decline. Did Fremer ask for best 2 out of 3? Did A. Randi withdraw the offer? What are you talking about? Inquiring minds and all of that....
The Amazing Randi offered Michael Fremer $1 Million dollars if he could tell the difference between $20,000 high end cables and Monster Cable. The negotiations bogged down when The Amazing Randi and his team of intrepid pseudo skeptics became a little suspicious that maybe Mr. Fremer might actually be able to hear the difference, even with all the ridiculous stipulations of the Randi Controlled Blind Test.
Guys...this is a hobby. Noone has to prove anything to anyone else scientifically or otherwise. I like what I have and love the way it sounds...noone has to believe or do as anyone else does.
A BIG +1 for oldguide. Couldn't have said it better myself.
I chuckle at anyone who would take someone's claim that such and such a cable "sounds better" as even minor evidence of a cable's ability to make an audio signal improve, or be less effected by negative outside influences, while on it's way to loudspeakers.
Folks this cable stuff makes my head spin. Several independent skeptics have offered varied sums of money to cable companies to prove their products are better than off-the-shelf wire. Some of these offers have been out there for years. To date no cable company has accepted them. Why not? The publicity alone would be worth it.
And yes, the car analogy is valid. Whenever a publication tests cars they routinely publish specs and run every vehicle through the same tests (i.e. acceleration, braking, handling). Most other pieces of audio equipment (amps, speakers, etc.) include specs for various factors such as thd, etc. It is routine, for example, to include oscilloscope graphs, etc. with various types of equipment. I am sure you can think of other examples.
Can these be tweaked. Of course, as is true of the endless threads about amplifier output. BUT, there is still some objectivity. An amplifier cannot claim 200w output when it only has 20. At present, cables have NO objective measurements.
Until the audio industry agrees to some standards for measuring cables, they stand as only very expensive pieces of wire. If cable companies want to convince me to part with hundreds or thousands of dollars that could be spent elsewhere in my system they will have to do better. So I will add my own challenge to the cable industry, both those making and selling them: if your cables really are better prove it scientifically. If they can not I will continue to spend my money on improving other components that can be measured. If they can not they are living on borrowed time. Eventually this modern version of the tulip bulb bubble will burst.
Exactly. If someone cannot hear a difference then they should not use anything more than stock wire in their setup and be happy with it. For those situations where differences can be heard, those people should get the cables they like and be happy with them.
dynaquest: This statement that attempts to paint a broad stroke characterization of all audiophiles as weak-minded, pliable, easily fooled, etc...and somehow enforce your view of the world and your agenda as a truth that must apply to all is simply not true. From my side I can personally recount 3 times in the last 11 years alone where (1) I ripped out an entire loom of a highly-thought of brand of expensive power cords, went back to stock cords and determined the stock cords were more natural sounding and that as the loom of pcs had grown, a mistake had been made that resulted in accumulated house sound. Same with 2 different iterations of a combination of speaker cables and interconnects from 2 different high-end cable manufacturers at various points. Each time I either returned to stock PCs or to very low-cost interconnects and speaker cables. There were things the low cost approach cables did not give me that I determined to live without and many that I did hear that I liked. I've also cut into or unwrapped more than a few cables in my time to see what's inside and realize there are a few brands out there that are simply "F-O-S!!!" and pulling one over on many of us music lovers.
I only 'went back' because I happened to be given an interconnect, a speaker cable and a power cord from one manufacturer that are not inexpensive, but not amongst the strata of audio cables that simply cannot explain their prices in terms of any reasonable markup on cost of goods plus cost of manufacture (and R&D). I stayed with the brand in question as they survived real A/B testing (double-blind) and truly deliver what they say with a high-end, resolving system and a good pair of ears on the receiving end.
I'm not here to give examples of the "B.S." cable choices I've experienced, nor am I going to give the names of the brands that I ripped out of the system or the higher end brand I wound up going moving to in order to promote them. Like another poster, I am results-oriented; I would never have agreed to go back on the 'spend more/pray for good results" merry go round if I had not heard truly remarkable differences when the cables in question in place and not been fooled in the double-blind testing when they were not. My only purpose here is to tell you that you are wrong about many audiophiles, including several I know well and myself that have all walked similar roads making mistakes and moving past them in various ways.
Please post your system and share more detail on your journey and your basis for your claims.
I completely agree! Note that if you HAVE spent mega-bucks on interconnects or speaker cables, there is not a chance in hell that you (on this forum) would EVER change you mind that THAT purchase must have made your system sound better - even if you cannot hear it. It is called the audio placebo effect. If you put out the big-bucks on cables, a better sub a DAC or just about any component, once you get it installed your system WILL sound better. It is proof positive that, on some products, if you overcharge you will sell more to the duped masses.
Some time ago, I replaced the Kimber (speaker) cables that came with a slightly used pair of B&W 803's with a 10 dollar set of Monoprice cables. I had no way to do a "blind" A/B test but after I switched them out those 803's continued to sweetly sing...no difference that I could tell.
I think one of the biggest reasons that people cannot hear a difference in cables is that their equipment is not resolving enough. .Whether it is an amp or speakers .. etc. For many years i could not ever hear a difference in digital cables . I changed to a different amp , and i could then hear differences.
Funny that Tara Labs would come up....that is one of the other cable manufacturers that I have owned and experienced and they make some awesome stuff. What get's my gander up is the likes of Analysis Plus or Nordost...non musical in my book!
Hi calvinj, good to see you, Dave Baskin's wife has his cable's for sale here on audiogon, yes! , they are the taralab's Evolution Grandmaster sp speaker cable's, funny though, she put gmev, abbreviation's for Grandmaster, however, she got the ev incorrect, supposed to be sp, that is even more high end and cost more than the standard taralab's Evolution Grandmaster speaker cable's, I believe she is going to liquidate his whole system, is the store still open for business?
Well here we go no other this no other can do that. Well the best system I ever heard was the late Dave Baskin's system. He owned designaudiovideo. Was it crazy expensive yes. Was it no holds barred yes. It had high end cables and equipment. But it was all a match for what he liked and for his listening room. 500k in equipment. Was it crazy yes! Will never hear a sound that good again. Never. But is sounded so good it's stuck in my ears a whole year later! We all like to experiment. Measure this measure that. Lol. Let your ears decide.
If we are talking just wire, then there are many values. On the other hand, MIT can not be duplicated and Transparent has a unique design as well....both offer more than just conventional performance. There is no short cut to what they do and their is no value alternative. So, as long as you have convinced yourself that MIT AND TRANSPARENT aren't for you....many wires exist and your results will vary. For me MIT delivers a whole other level of realistic audio playback that no other cable delivers.
Sometimes you get what you pay for with regard to quality. Sometimes the dollar cost and spent amount is low and you receive an outstanding product. Other times you can pay extremely high prices and get something that leaves much to be desired with quality. Having watched cables being made by someone that knows what they are doing, using components, materials and a honed set of skills you can achieve an excellent set of interconnects and power cables for a very reasonable sum that is in the realm of the working world.
It allows us to release the inner angst we all harbor and enables us to validate ourselves in an anonymous consequence free environment! Now that's worthwhile....carry on!
The best way for this for this thread to go away is not participating, a audio builder will try anything that has his interest, sure, some are decision failure's,, some are are satisfactory, and of course, there is the wow factor, that said, the real perspective is that the general public think's an audiophile is obsessive, wasteful of money, down right crazy for the amount of money north of $1,000.00 for an entire system, this thread has no constructive learning, although I am certainly a believer of good cable's can work to benefit a system, my reason for this post is to persuade respectable audiogon member's that this thread is like discussing politic's, a never ending debate that by the end of the day, accomplished nothing.
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