Why do I need a switch?

@curiousjim I am running the Finisar FCBG110SD1C03 and also the FTLX1475D3BTL like tube rolling (snicker) and I am using the Mini Unmanaged 1x 100M/1G/2.5G/5G/10GBase-T RJ45 to 1x 10GBase-X SFP+ Slot 10Gigabit Ethernet Media Converter, AC 100V~240V or DC 5~12V

  https://www.qsfptek.com/product/99867.html

@curiousjim 

Put the converters after your last Ethernet connection. I thought you were planning to run CAT6 to your system. The other thing uses your home electrical wiring to extend your Wi-Fi. I know nothing about that but suspect there could be a risk of adding all sorts of noise (others here know more about that than me, I am sure).  I would put the converters after the Ethernet cable that comes out of the adaptor kit, or at the end of your CAT6, if you choose that route.

BTW, unless you already own the CAT6, consider using CAT8 for the additional shielding.  The cost difference is not that much.

All this fiber talk made me want to hear that set-up again, so I just reconnected my 15M fiber cable from just out of my router to just before my double Bonn switches, where my gear is.  It sounds pretty good.  I doubt I could pick it out of an A/B comparison against the CAT8 cable but the impression I have is maybe a little “wetter”, or maybe a little easier to listen to.  Certainly not night and day but I will leave it in for a while.

otoh, some of us aren’t really into the journey, don’t want to expend the effort, come here ask a question, just want the simple answer, then they get much input that is contradictory, vocal naysayers abound, and then frustration ensues ...

No, this isn’t it. There’s no journey to be had on this road because it makes absolutely no sense that an Ethernet switch would affect the sound of a digital audio file. None. If it did, then your local network and the internet in general wouldn’t work.

There’s a reason why audiophiles are laughed at when they claim products like ’audiophile’ switches make a difference. Network equipment and protocols are all about reliable transmission of data. If you claim to hear a difference when you insert a new switch in your streaming setup, it’s not the switch that’s the source of the difference.

The only way sound is materially affected in a digital system is if the bits are changed. There’s an easy way to test this - use a cryptographic hashing algorithm such as SHA-512 to generate a signature of an audio file. Copy that audio file as many times as you want over your network. Then when you’re satisfied, take a copy and create a new signature using the same algorithm. See if the old and new signatures match - I can pretty much guarantee you that they will.

These types of operations are fundamental to network security and it simply wouldn’t be possible to secure everyday occurrences like paying for something on Amazon or logging into your bank’s website if network equipment affected the data.

Let me add that audiophiles really need to wake up and exercise their critical thinking skills. I know that some of these technologies appear to be mystical, magical boxes - they just work. It’s seductive to think that audiophiles somehow have some kind of insider information to improve on this technology. Consider this - teams of engineers and experts across many companies over many decades have thought through how the protocols should function, what kind of specifications the network interfaces should have and how they should interoperate. What you are using right now is the sum total of all their knowledge and experience. I don’t think a small specialty audiophile company can bring anything of value to the table in this scenario.

I use STP (Shielded Twisted Pair) Ethernet Cables from my router.

You can read about them here.

@mitch2 

Okay, So, I’ll have to use the Powerline adapter and have the boxed between it and the streamer. Knowing i have thirty day to return everything, I’m going to give it a try.  Heck, I can even plug the warts into the power conditioner.

Thanks @jeffstrick for the answer.  Seeing as this is only a test, I just ordered a couple of the Ethernet to fiber boxes from Amazon and we’ll see what happens. If I hear anything I’ll get better power supplies and if I hear nothing, they’ll go back and I’ve shelved adding a switch for now.  I do have a cheap five channel switch somewhere, but it can stay in the cabinet for now.

I agree @jjss49 

besides putting in the Ethernet to fiber, I’ve also been thinking about getting the Denifrips Iris DDC, but unlike the Ethernet to fiber boxes, the Iris isn’t going to be returnable, so it’s much farther down the list.

Seeing as this is only a test, I just ordered a couple of the Ethernet to fiber boxes from Amazon and we’ll see what happens. If I hear anything I’ll get better power supplies and if I hear nothing, they’ll go back and I’ve shelved adding a switch for now. I do have a cheap five channel switch somewhere, but it can stay in the cabinet for now.

to do this assessment correctly you should have a well filtered or linear power supply on the ’clean’ side (receiving end) fiber media converter... otherwise, the noisy power supply there puts the electrical hash right back in ... before the dac gets the bitstream, thus defeating the purpose...

So been doing some reading on credible EE related websites, and I found this interesting tidbit:

While Ethernet is DC blocked by a transformer there is also a 1000-2000pF capacitor around the transformer to reduce common mode emmissions.

I wonder if these Ethernet isolators, like iFi or Tripp Lite or Everstar keep that cap in place?

Look at Figure 2, specifically at C2 and C3.

@jjss49 - Good point about having a LPS after the fiber conversion. I believe the OP’s intended set-up involves only a short fiber cable so both power supplies will be located near his system. If LPSs are not going to be used for both converters, then it might be helpful if the dirty side SMPS can be on a different circuit from his audio equipment, or at least not plugged into the same power conditioner (could try it both ways). BTW, the linear supply I linked in my earlier post (25W DC Linear Power Supply 5.1V 3.5A) is currently available on Prime with free returns. The OP should confirm his converters will operate on 5v since some do but others, like the converters I linked, require a 9v supply, which are not as easy to find as the more common 5v.

Finally, with all of this stuff, IME, do not expect dramatic improvements or changes in what you hear. For me, these ancillary items have resulted in subtle changes at most.

@jjss49 to do this assessment correctly you should have a well filtered or linear power supply on the ’clean’ side (receiving end) fiber media converter... otherwise, the noisy power supply there puts the electrical hash right back in ... before the dac gets the bitstream, thus defeating the purpose...

I added fiber to my system using the supplied switching supplies and could hear a clear difference. I then added a LPS on the streamer end to complete the setup. I think he is safe taking things in steps.

This might be worth a look: https://ifi-audio.com/products/lan-isilencer/

@mitch2

yes indeed, a simple lps for the ’clean side’ fiber receiver is not much money, and can also be bought on a refundable basis, if one does this smartly

just want to make sure when an experiment is run to learn whether a desired effect can be achieved, that it is not self defeating at the outset...

@curiousjim Proceed with caution.  You should research the technology at multiple difference sources before you spend a bunch of money.    

@12many 

Yep, what I just ordered cost around $70 and if it doesn’t make a difference to my ears, everything can be returned.

Interesting discussion @curiousjim. I presently am running two network switches in sequence between my CAT6 router and my Network Acoustics Eno Ethernet filter on the way to my server. The first switch is an inexpensive 5-port D-Link that is connected to an 8-port $200 commercial grade Cisco network switch by a $70 Audioquest cinnamon ethernet cable. Both switches have iFi iPower Elite SMPS’s that are plugged into my AQ Niagara power conditioner. Ideally the cleaner the signal you send to your DAC the better the music will sound in your system. RFI and EMI are the real enemies of internet music streaming IMO.

The simple test that I tried and convinced me of the efficacy of using a network switch was to first use an inexpensive switch between my router and my server. The $50 D-Link switch and a $20 L-Com ethernet cable were enough for me to notice that the music sounded less digitally harsh and smoother. Of course the amount of money you can spend on anything in streaming audio can get pretty outrageous. But you don’t have to go crazy to get positive results. I think it’s definitely worth a try.

I just got the Network Acoustic Muon Pro series Ethernet cable and filter.  It is an expensive Ethernet cable.  I am considering three switches.  Paul Pang, Ediscreation, and the new one that is due out in June from Network Acoustics.  These switches range in price from $1.8k - 4.4k.  

In the meantime, I have the D-link switch that I am inserting into my 2-channel system.  If I can hear an audible difference with the $50 D-Link then I will proceed to consider one of my three options above.  At this point, all I am out is $50 to try and experiment with.  I have Fiber and Cat 6 and I am electing to go back to Cat 6. If I do not hear any difference in SQ then I go without a switch at my Lucas Audio Music Server.  This to me is a very cheap test to try before investing any real money.  I have absolutely nothing to lose except $50.

I also just ordered a Teddypardo LPS that I am going to plug into my Netgear modem to my Araknis 310 and 210 router and switch for the whole house network that is in a separate area that feeds my theater room and two-channel room which are at different ends of the house. 

@tonywinga So what I hear you saying, based on your description, is that you have Wi-Fi signal level issues that were remedied by hardwiring. I always recommend hardwiring backhauls from Mesh network nodes to avoid those exact issues. 

The differences between cable specs are all about supporting longer distances, higher speeds, and reducing RF noise pickup through known methods. Cat 5, 5e, 6 (tighter twist, shielded, 6a (higher spec Cat 6), and 7 (change to Gigagate 45 connectors). 

Luckily audio is a very low bandwidth network load, with few if any commercial offerings requiring more than 5Mbits/Sec (24-bit 192 KHz), well within the capability of even Cat 5'S 100Mbits/Sec @ 100M. If you were having issues it was likely RF interference related that the higher spec cable shielded from better than what was used before.

Perhaps.  Before I added the ethernet cables and running just wifi, a speed test on my TV would show >250mps.  I consider that a pretty good wifi signal.  Keep in mind that the main router is connected directly to the modem.  I am using a wifi 6e mesh system with the secondary router close enough to have a full strength signal.  

I ran the ethernet cable to the secondary router out of the audio grade network switch.  95% of the picture improvement was via wifi from the secondary router to the TV after adding the ethernet cable from the network switch.  The additional small improvement came by connecting an ethernet cable directly to the TV from the network switch.

After connecting the secondary router to the network switch, wifi speeds increased to 550 mps in the room with the TV.  

So I received and installed these,

TP-Link Gigabit SFP to RJ45 Fiber Media Converter, Fiber to Ethernet Converter 10/100/1000Mbps RJ45 Port to 1000Base-SX Multi-Mode Fiber (MC200CM) Black https://a.co/d/7JUU7Su

Easy peasy everything works and sounds good. There was no immediate difference and  It’s way to early decide anything, but without buying another $500 power supply, is there any decent LPS’s that have two or more 9 volt output connections that I can use on these network boxes? @erik_squires @jjss49 @zlone @mitch2 and all.

I use a Netgear PL1200. Then I run to a netgear 5 port switch. It sounds great. You can get faster models of this type if you want.

https://www.amazon.com/NETGEAR-PowerLINE-Gigabit-Pass-Through-PLP1200-100PAS/dp/B00S6DBGIS/ref=asc_df_B00S6DBGIS?tag=bngsmtphsnus-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80814222102152&hvnetw=s&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=m&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584413749440857&psc=1#

There are other brands too, but the Netgear network through AC wire has been solid, easy to setup with pressing two buttons. One at the router and then at the Streamer location or desired device. This is not Audiophile stuff, but let me tell you it would be worth the cost to see if it meets your needs. I am very picky, not a critic, I just love HI Fi accurate sound and excitement from music. It sounds very good. It comes back with no intervention after a power outage. It just works slick. I have had flawless sreaming for 2 years now. A use the netgear switch to go between my Innous Mini Mk III, and a bluesound 2i.

First, know I have fully gone to the Dark Side of internet switches.  I started with a Etherregen with a quality LPS, added a SOtM with a quality LPS switch then the English Electric with a quality LPS.  I clock the Etherregen and SOtM with a Mutec Ref10.  I have the ENO Ethernet filter and several SOtM cables with filters.

My experience is more is better. 

If you want to start slowly I would suggest the Eno Ethernet filter, you should hear an improvement and if not send it back and stop.  From there a quality switch will bring another level of betterness.  The switch is a sum of its parts but key parts are the clock and power supply.  An off the shelf switch is not going to have a decent clock so don’t try it and its power supply will be noisy.  An external LPS is going to lower noise and you should hear it.

There is a level of diminishing returns depending on the resolution and noise of your system.  I am all in with streaming.  I used to believe streaming (Qobuz) could never sound close to a CD or ripped CD.  Now I know otherwise.

@curiousjim It’s way to early decide anything, but without buying another $500 power supply, is there any decent LPS’s that have two or more 9 volt output connections that I can use on these network boxes?

I used one of these from Solupeak on the streamer end, though my FMC's are 5V:

https://www.amazon.com/Audiophile-Regulated-Converter-Raspberry-Solupeak/dp/B08HDGCP3V/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=SOLUPEAK&qid=1680293203&sr=8-6&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.18ed3cb5-28d5-4975-8bc7-93deae8f9840

The price has gone up significantly since I bought mine in December, but still affordable. I can't say that adding the LPS was night and day, but overall the fiber has been a nice upgrade.

Forget the switch. If your sound is noisy, get a Ethernet-to-fiber then back to Ethernet setup going to your dac and you will clean up the signal.

As for getting multiple switches to clean up the signal, that’s nuts. But if you can tell the difference, whether it’s real or not, then do it.

@nd1der 

The reason I am trying to add a bit of fiber is to remove noise. If you have fiber coming into your home and modem, then you are good to go. You could try running fiber out of your modem to your router, but you probably won’t hear any difference.

OP:

The ifi iPower adaptors should work well and minimize AC noise generation. RELATIVELY affordable given the usual markup on anything that says "audiophile" on it.

I run my DAC on a Power X version, and then use the next level down for my streamer, and network switch in my HT. 

https://amzn.to/3zqmTUm

@pcrhkr

I’ve been using the for about a year and it works great!

NETGEAR Powerline adapter Kit, 2000 Mbps Wall-plug, 2 Gigabit Ethernet Ports with Passthrough + Extra Outlet (PLP2000-100PAS) https://a.co/d/0pfP5NU

One out goes to the integrated and the other goes to the server.

I'm not overwhelmed by iFi. I prefer something more conventional like these:

AUDIOPHONICS PSU-HC Regulated Linear Power Supply 5V 5A 60VA

AUDIOPHONICS PSU-HC Linear Regulated Power Supply 12V 5A 100VA

If I change the 9v PS’s,  I’m hoping to find one LPS, with two outlets. Use only one AC plug, less clutter.

@erik_squires 

My DAC has a LPS built in and I bought Teddy Pardo for my streamer, but it’s got a special cord and it’s 5 volts and these little guys need 9.

Also that article is interesting. But I wonder which is better, the fiber or the capacitor route?

If you have enough ports on your router, you don't need a switch.  Of course, listen and make sure you are enjoying your music.  FWIW, I have a switch between my router and my streaming device, but only because I needed extra ports in the room.

English Electric 8 switch
 

This is a really good switch and I was lucky to have found and bought it for about 600 bucks Plus they give you a decent Quality shorter ethernet cable and the connecting power cord is of very good quality. 
 

It's an elegant looking switch and the blinking lights are very subdued. It's built very well and all the underlying technical rationale is very compelling.

So the TP-Link boxes are installed and everything seems to be working,  but I really don’t hear any difference. I’ll give it a few more days to break in or whatever and if I still can’t hear any difference, back they go.

So you added optical fiber in the Ethernet chain from your router to your music server?  Anything else between the router and your music server?

And you hear no difference?  Well, I’d say that you should have heard a difference immediately if you were going to hear anything.  It’s likely that it will not change over time.

OP,

Thanks for documenting your experimentation.

@curiousjim 

I really don’t hear any difference.

I am not surprised, and I agree with @tonywinga that you should either hear a change, or not - your perception is not likely to change over time. 

I have gone back and forth with fiber or Ethernet multiple times and as I said earlier, subtle changes at most, to the point where I doubt I could reliably discern the change, if there is any - they both sound good.

I never asked, were you trying to fix a problem or simply exploring possibilities to optimize your digital source?

@mitch2 

All of this started because I read a couple of articles and saw a few videos about cheap switches making a positive impovment in hifi systems.  So in answer to your question, I’m exploring possibilities.  I had a couple Netgear switch's, but for the life of me I can’t find them, so for $67, I tried another Avenue and bought the Ethernet to fiber boxes. 
In the same vein, I have read a few articles and watched a few videos about reclocking. It seems to me that it’s basically the only thing a switch does that could possibly change/improve the signal/sound. So, I was thinking about getting a Denafrips Iris DDC to do the reclocking job, but haven’t made any firm decisions yet.

@tonywinga 

So from the router I’m running a Netgear Powerline. One end is plugged into a UPS and the other is plugged into the same outlet my integrated is plugged in. It’s because of the Powerline device that I went with the Ethernet to fiber setup.  Maybe it could be adding noise. 
FYI, I can’t hear the difference between WiFi from the Nighthawk router and using the Powerline.

NETGEAR Powerline adapter Kit, 2000 Mbps Wall-plug, 2 Gigabit Ethernet Ports with Passthrough + Extra Outlet (PLP2000-100PAS) https://a.co/d/cKOpK93

So you are using some type of Wi-Fi device?  That changes the game.  

1) Put the fiber section between the router and the Powerline device and see if that sounds different.

2) Try to run an ethernet cable from your router to your music server with and w/o the FMC’s in the chain- if you can to compare the sound.

I bought a long ethernet cable and ran it from my audio grade network switch, which is after the FMC’s, to my TV at the other end of the house.  The picture looked so much better that I ended up working 6 hours running that cable through the walls and under the house to the TV.  Running an ethernet cable to the 2nd mesh router at that end of the house made the TV picture just about as good but since I had to run one cable to that end of the house it wasn’t much more to run two.

@curiousjim 

So, I was thinking about getting a Denafrips Iris DDC to do the reclocking job, but haven’t made any firm decisions yet.

I bought a Denafrips Hermes a couple of months ago for the similar reason, plus to try converting USB out of my streamer to AES/EBU that I could input into my DAC.  The Hermes and Gaia offer more options for clocking, particularly if you have a Denafrips DAC, but my first step was to try it as a converter and hopefully send a lower jitter signal to my DAC. 

Regarding the sound, it seems to sound at least as good as running a USB direct from my server to my DAC.  This may say more about my server and DAC since they have quite high quality USB interface boards.  At the least, I can say putting the Hermes in the chain does no harm sonically but, again, I did not even use the clock function so there is probably considerably more potential to be had.

Digital is about clocking and power supplies. This is where switches and USB reclockers come in. On Ethernet, the fibre route works up to a point since it doesn‘t suffer from EFI/RFI noise incursion. Alas, the converters themselves aren‘t the best time keeping devices and create distortions of their own. Ethernet can be made to work, but only with a lot of effort. In my case, I employ three switches with associated linear power supplies after the router. The router, which only has the system as client and its own LPS is followed by a simple Netgear router after a 25ft line, this in turn is followed by a LHYaudio Ocxo switch which I can‘t recommend highly enough, which is again followed by an Etherregen, which is clocked by a Antelope 10m clock. Power supplies are LHYaudio and Sean Jacobs for the Etherregen. From the LHYaudio switch onwards cables are 50 cm in length and top quality cat8 throughout. This setup is the result of 3 years experimentation

And btw: on the USB link reclocking and galvanic isolators are required, again with LPS.

@tonywinga 

I’ll try moving the fiber to the router end of things and see if I hear anything.

 I have a 100’ Cat 6 cable, but it has to go down and cross the hallway before I can connect it to the server. Not wife approved!😁

@mitch2 

I have DH Labs, Silversonic Mirage USB from the server and XLR’s to the integrated amp.  Please Tell me more about your experiences with the Hermes.

Thanks.

I keep reading about this fiber conversion step and it has me scratching my head vs the Network Acoustic passive ethernet options. Been there and done that with fiber and the NA passive filter and cables easily surpass the sound quality of the fiber gymnastics options IMHO.  I suggest trying the Network Acoustic options as they have a nice trial period.  You won’t be disappointed if your system is reasonably resolving. The Muon filter and network cable did wonders for my digital streaming.  I have moved up to the Muon Pro and think it is well worth the investment.  

i have tried lan cleansing using network acoustics passive eno, etherregen, and etherregen via optical (via its sfp port into a optical rendu)

in my system, all three sound excellent, give the music a purity and relaxedness otherwise not obtained... but try as i might in comparing, i can not honestly say one of the three sound better than the others, but all were noticeably better than no cleansing at all - maybe it is my home (a recently built one), my service area, my internet vendor's equipment that makes my situation less demanding of these cleansers, i don't know...

i would say (and have said elsewhere) that when using optical modules and fmc’s to cleanse a network feed for audio, the quality of the modules, the fmc’s and power supply are all very important in achieving the desired, positive effect

I use a netgear pl1200 lan and a 5 port netgear switch and it sounds great. Go by what you hear, not what people say. If you have a large income and want an expensive network, then ok. It may or may not help the sound. I think your 8 port switch is ok if gigabit. The Electronics of the streamer does the work as long as the bandwidth is good, and you use a decent DAC. Wireless is not as good as wired.

Over the last years also tried Fiber conversation with standard FMC as well as with EtherRegen and very new Sonore OM Deluxe V2 with Finisar SFPs and Farad Super3 with SR Purple fuse, Furutech inlet and a AQ Monsoon power cord, all devices connected to a Audioquest Niagara 5000. All Ethernet cabling is with AQ Diamond.

It definitely reduces noise and makes things more calm, darker/quiet background etc. 

Though when using the Network Acoustics Muon Pro things were even more organic and intense / emotional. 

Hm, so I guess clocking would be another step up - but instead of getting an external clock for the EtherRegen I would like to get a better switch with a high end clock build in which should be even more effective.

if you get any recommendations I am glad to hear  

@markush

What is the streamer and DAC you are using? The key to this is that performance is highly dependent on how high a quality your streamer is. The better your streamer the less dependent you are on switch’s… also the downstream components matter determining how highly resolving your system is.

For instance, I run my system from a wall wart WiFi extender and a very high end streamer. In this scenario an EtherGen did no improvement. As I have upgraded routers. There has been no sonic difference.

Thanks.

Everyone has differences in their systems and not surprisingly have differing results.  I try to normalize my streaming results by comparing it to my other sources.  I have four different sources now: Vinyl, CD, FLAC files stored on my music server and Qobuz.  I'll stay away from vinyl for now.  So on the digital side I am using a CD transport and separate DAC.  Then I have a music server with USB to the DAC.  I ripped my CD collection into FLAC files stored on my music server.  After trying a couple of different USB cables I'd say that my CD to FLAC files are very close in sound to playing my CD's directly.  I did some back and forth but mostly I like to listen to a song and then play it again from the other source.  I am satisfied that to me the music server and CD transport are very nearly the same.  I use ROON but do not use any oversampling or conversion.  I have ROON set as basically a pass through with PCM output to my DAC.  I tried DSD output with various filters but never sounded as good as direct PCM out.

When I started streaming I was using an ethernet cable from my router directly to the music streamer.  Streaming 16/44 was clearly less than CD quality.  Then I added a cheap network switch and heard some improvement.  Next, I tried FMC's and found fiber was a good upgrade in the sound.  The differences between streaming 16/44 and CD was getting smaller.  I took out the cheap network switch and found that was an improvement.  Next added the Finisar 1475 SMP's (these are the plug-ins found on the FMC boxes) and got a nice improvement.  At this point 16/44 streaming was very close to CD and hi-res FLAC files vs streaming hi-res was also very close.  Finally, I added the LHY SW-8 network switch after the Fiber and changed to Pangea ethernet cables.  I hear no difference now between spinning CDs, FLAC or streaming.