I agree on the Vandersteen speakers as anyone who has read my posts knows. I also love the AQ cables as to me, they do everything well. They are the most neutral for my ear and pass what the electronics are passing, without adding or subtracting. JMHO |
For folks who care about the science of cables, there are tests that I've seen that show various cables as well as 'minimum' wires trying to pass a square wave. Cables and cartridges have the highest mark up in the audio world (maybe some accessories are up there too), but there are audible as well as measurable differences. I'm not an engineer as possibly some of you are, but there are plenty of reasons for cables to pass things along differently. Some utilize plated cables, AQ uses a DBS system that reduces loading of the dielectric if I recall correctly. All of these things can be measured and are measured.
I personally have limits to what I will spend depending on my system. Most of the time, it's not difficult to chose wires/cables in a system. For those who believe in using basic wire, that's awesome and it works for you. No reason for any of us to talk you out of it.
I also agree with those who feel that some of the cables change the sound, but not always for the best. I actually don't like many lines of cables and I'm against 'tuning' your system using different cables. To me, I just get the system I love up front. I spend my money on components. Once I like what I'm hearing, then I will chose the cables that are the most neutral and will give me the dynamics, staging and anything else I loved to begin with. For me, the AQ and Cardas lines have been the best. I only am using the AQ line now and like anything else, there are diminishing returns. I will say that going from the less expensive cables in the line to the ones that use DBS, I hear positive differences. That's where the point of diminishing returns comes in. When I had the Vandy Treo's, I heard positive changes all the way up the line into the mega thousands range, but for me, it was silly to spend that much when I was using an 8k speaker and a 13k integrated.
Now I have a pair of Quatro's that cost over 15k or so I believe. NOW, the smaller positive differences are more pronounced and I'm thinking about spending a bit more as the system is worthy of it. Again, this is just me and my hearing.
I have been using a basic USB cable from my server to my Ayre QX5/20 DAC. I had a friend over and had him behind the system constantly changing the USB cable while I listened to the same passaged over and over again. I then asked him to leave on of them in to listen to some full songs. The cable that won out was the AQ Diamond USB cable. It works for me as it's not too expensive in my mind. |
A great cable should be totally invisible when dealing with the signal. That's the problem with most cables. They seem to have their own signature and this is why some use them to 'tune' their systems. This is the biggest reason I have switched over to AQ cables. I have had the MIT, Transparent, Nordost, Wireworld, Kimber, Cardas and so many more in the systems and have only really liked the AQ cables. Again, my ear, but they seem to be the most neutral up and down the line. Right now I use the balanced Niagara interconnect between my Ayre QX5/20 and Ayre AX5/20. I am using a generic UBS between the server and the DAC. I run an 8' length of Castlerock internal bi wired between the amp and the Vandersteen Quatro's.
A friend sent me a pair of AQ Horizon's (the same as the top of the line WEL) that are silver along with my favorite USB the AQ Diamond. I have had the diamond in and out of the system in the past and it makes a HUGE difference. As much to me as a double component upgrade. The stock USB Belkin sucks. I hate it. It will be interesting to hear what the Horizon will sound like in my system. I have heard the WBYonder a few times and felt that with so much silver, it really was musical and sounded like the components were almost hard wired to each other. I felt it was that good, but couldn't afford it and if I could, I think I'd have put that money towards better electronics.
I only have one audiophile cord in the system and it made a little difference. Not enough for me to go out and buy expensive cords for everything also (the cord is a TOL Basis power cord that was given to me to try out). I have found a bigger power difference by putting a Synergistic Research Powercell 10/Tesla into the rack (selling said unit) and now an AQ Niagara power unit.
These both lower the noise floor so much that you can hear the micro and macro details so much easier. I'm floored by how much these units work. I also like the Denali conditioner.
To address folks who say wealthy people can afford a specific cable so it's not a big deal, I promise you it is. I am friends with many who own the 62k Vandersteen 7's with TOL component and cables. Most of them can afford whatever they want, but like me, they audition products and figure if they are worth it. Not just giving better sound (not just different sound) and is the cost/return worth it. No different than many of us who will never afford those types of systems. Incremental differences are personal choices and there is no right or wrong. The market IS there so those engineers who say folks are hoodwinked make me laugh as they come across as always being correct, when in fact they are not correct based on the market for these high end cables. You can't hoodwink that many folks who do audition products and most buy what sounds best for them and don't bother reading the boards.
That is based on sales. |
Buck, there are three types of audiophile for the most part. Those who love the music and use the equipment to listen with the best possibly enjoyment. Those who love equipment and listen to music to show off their systems (according to many in the industry, this may make up about 60% or more). Third are those (me) who love both and will listen to anything they are in the mood for, but on occasion will listen to 'audiophile' pressings to show off what their systems can do.
I was just sent a pair of Audioquest Horizon balanced interconnects and a piece of their Diamond USB cable. I have always loved the Diamond as it makes a huge difference to MY EAR IN MY SYSTEM.
I have been running an AQ Niagara interconnect, which for it's price range is an outstanding value (if you believe cable makes a difference). The Horizon was the precursor to the top of the line WEL cable. I was in shock at what i've been hearing this weekend. The Horizon just does EVERYTHING better. It doesn't change the tone or anything, but the system just sounds so much better.
My wife doesn't give a crap about audio. She just likes music and will go to many concerts with me from rock to blues to jazz to... I never tell her what I've done or haven't done to the system, but she stopped me dead in my tracks after I changed the cables and asked what I did. She had no idea I had them and didn't see me do anything to the system. When she asked me, I asked her why. She said it just sounds like the Joe Bonamassa concert I took her to at Carnegie Hall last Jan for my birthday. They recorded it and just released it on Blueray and Tidal is streaming it (acoustic). She said the instruments sound like they did that night and that should could almost feel Tina Guo in the room (Google her as she's a GREAT cellist).
I audition a lot of gear. I have left cables for last to be honest and for good reason. They make a difference, but often taking the cost and upgrading a component makes a larger difference. When stepping up to this level of cable, I was shocked that in a system like mine, it make such a difference. If I had to pay full price, I could not afford a cable like this, but as I've stated, there is a point in a line where you get their best 'value' in a component or cable. I felt for years the Niagara or it's similar cable was that point and I believe it still is today, but I will not be selling these Horizon cables for a long time, if forever. I feel blessed to own them. Oh, the diamond going from my server to the DAC is equally as good and makes a full component difference for me from the Carbon that it's often compared to. JMHO |
Yes the difference between the AQ Wild and WEL are the size of the teflon tubes and the absorption of electronic interference etc.... The lowered noise floor is so noticeable that I'm blown away. I have NEVER been 'blown away' by any cable and I've had Odin's and the top Transparent in my system. For YEARS I owned what was the MIT top wire (the 350 interconnects and the 770 speaker cables) that they 'tuned' to my tube gear specifically.
I'm used to using very good cabling in my systems. Since I switched to AQ a few years ago, I"ve noticed positive differences. They weren't modest, but they weren't 'blow me away'. I never felt I should ever have to tune a system using wire. To me, that says I don't like the sound of my gear. I always listen to gear with lower priced cabling and go from there.
I'm all about the neutral and for me, it will be nearly impossible to go backwards in my cabling. |
So you contradict yourself with your own statement of:
' And the ONLY measure of efficacy is extremely subjective - one's perception of what is being heard.'
Yes, perception. I use the term jaw dropping, because in my system that's what I hear as well as others in the house who had no clue that I installed said cables. Also, I have no skin in the game and honestly, I paid more for my pair of Niagara that I'm about to list for sale.
You don't hear any difference and that's fine. Let me know when you have heard MY system so you can make that statement as fact please. ha.
Yes, you point out scientific reality. Have you measure the cables I'm personally using? I know you haven't. Maybe there aren't measurements available yet that show the differences. I personally don't know, nor do I care as I trust my ears. Some of the differences in cables deals with how they shield interferrences, so how can you make a statement about scientific reality saying you can't hear a difference. The reality is that over the years we've been able to take measurements that we couldn't in the past.
I used to work in the gold industry selling product to the dental and jewelry industry. The metallurgist was also a budding audiophile and we used to talk all the time about cable properties and how it affects sound. We discussed grain boundaries and grain size etc.. There are many differences in the metallurgy of these high end cables. Just because some folks who claim to be scientists come on threads like this and post as though their feelings are supported by science and therefore are the best opinion, are not correct as many of these designs are based on science and measurable. That is a fact.
I'll just wait for your response telling me that your position is correct. :) |
Thanks Geof. That's why I asked if naysayer has even heard the cable I reference in my system. I see no science or test results that show one way or the other. I respect the heck out of science and physics. My daughter i nearly complete in her physics degree and always discusses scientific facts etc...She also looks for things that may be missed. |
we can all go back and forth and probably will, but in the end it's like everything else in audio. Individual and up to each of us to audition and chose what sounds best to US in OUR rooms.
It's discussions like this that keep forums hot though and fun to hang out in. |
KN, possibly the best post in any of these threads where folks come on and spout science and feel they are right and the rest are wrong. Thanks for sharing. |
LMAO.... now that's funny stuff. |
I totally disagree with just subtle differences. It depends on what your system is. Mine is very highly resolving and when I put the Audioquest Horizon balanced interconnect in (it's the same cable as the WEL which is about 9k a meter I believe or something like that), I heard a HUGE difference. So did my wife and daughter who aren't audiophiles and had NO CLUE that I was able to get a pair, lmao. |
Bruce, the thing is that all you need to do is borrow some cables and play. That's what I do when I can and when I hear something that I feel sound THAT much better and the price is within what I feel is fair, I'll go for it.
I feel very strongly that many cables do change the sound, but not always for the best and price isn't always the differentiator. I've learned that many little changes can make differences in sound quality both good or bad. |
Parrot, not all are tone controls. That's the reason I am using only the Audioquest cables. They have been the only ones I've had in my room that are just neutral. I've had the Odin and other top of the line cables. If you need to use cables as tone controls, then something is wrong with your speakers, amps or source. Probably a combination of all. |
Parrot, when did I ever say your system is defective? I'd never use that term. We all hear differently. Systems, rooms and hearing are all subjective. I PERSONALLY feel that cables have a signature sound. Maybe I'm not typing things properly, but as you said, the Nordost cables to most I know are somehow a bit hot. Great cables and I've liked them in many systems I've heard them in. I wouldn't own them, but I fully get why folks love them (or don't). To ME, that's tonally adjusting a system with cables. That's something that I personally don't like to do for MY system. Nothing wrong there. Doesn't mean I don't understand why some do use cables to 'tune' their systems. Maybe I'm 'tuning' using AQ cables that I use. I have never heard my tonal balance change when upgrading or downgrading within the AQ line. What I hear is a larger stage, more detail things like that. If you want to call that tuning, then that's cool and I agree that is what I do. Parrot, I have no idea how your system sounds in your room and to your ears (or anyone else's). Not sure how you turned what I posted into me saying your system is defective? |
I like the larger diameter cables for heavier gear. They just never snap when you use them to move things. Sometimes those cheap and thin ones stretch too much when you need them to hold up an 80 lb mono block. |
Dialectric gets loaded up and will negatively affect the sound. That's what the AQ DBS units do. They don't them them build up if you would. No expert, but that's basically what happens.
I think some of the major problems high end has had IRT cables are that they are so easy to make, that so many got involved. Many were charlatan's and many folks screwed themselves over paying too much for crap cable.
To do a cable properly and effect a positive change, not just a change, isn't as easy as many want you to believe. The other thing is that the mark up in cables is similar to cartridges. I'll never forget speaking with the Grado guys when I was in HS. I used to sell audio gear on the side to make extra money. I asked what the differences were in the various Grado cartridges. He told me that as you went up in price, they sounded a bit better. I asked him why they cost so much for basically the same parts and process to make. He simply said, because they can. Said that it costs them pennies more for the various tips they were using, but that they could charge 2 to 3 times more for the more expensive and complex stylus. Then we talked about the Polk cables that I was just starting to use with my Polk 10's (loved those speakers, lol). I defiantly heard a positive difference. They were very expensive, but looked teh part too. All of a sudden things went crazy and cable manufacturers were popping up all over the place.
Are 5k cables that much more expensive to produce? Not really, but they can charge these prices, because many will pay as they feel the differences is well worth it in their systems. Should someone use a 5k cable in a system worth 10K? I feel that's a waste as do most. I'm a firm believer that most folks should take that extra cable money adn upgrade their components. That said, you do need to spend a certain about on cables to max out your system IMHO. |
Well, since it's all subjective, the law of diminishing returns is up to each and every one of us. That means that no one can tell me or anyone else if the return is worth it. I can promise you that everyone who's listened to my system with the WEL cables (I guess new around 8k or so) vs my Niagara (I think these are around 1700) have said there is a very large difference and it's all positive.
I have had similar situations with my USB cables also. For me/us it's a huge difference. As much as changing out various DAC's. |
There will always be folks who say ti doesn't matter, but they aren't listening to my system, I promise you that. When I installed the new AQ Hurricane power cords in my system, I never told my wife. Everything is hidden by plants etc, so you can't see the cords unless you look really hard. I'll never forget her first reaction when I put on some music after about 500 hours of burn in. She asked what I did with the system. She asked if I bought a new amp as she heard a huge difference for the better. Her ears are very good and we go to a fair amount of live music events when we are able to, so she knows what Joe Bonamassa sounds like at Carnegie Hall etc... This was a revelation for her and even me. The only cord I ever installed was one that AJ Conte sent me to try. It was his best power cord and I put it on my DAC. It made a nice difference, but not huge. When I heard the Dragon and Hurricanes in a very nice system, I was floored. He made me listen to Shunyata and then Garth's new cords. Both were outstanding, but the AQ stuff was amazing. I was sold and am so happy I made these upgrades.
Switching to the new William Tell zero and bass speaker cables made an even larger difference. I was already using an AQ WEL balanced interconnect from server/DAC to integrated as It was basically given to me by a friend.
I used to own Polk 10's with their own speaker cable, so I guess I've heard a difference since 73 or so, like others who have posted.
YMMV and if folks don't hear a difference, then that's fine, but it's rude for them to tell us what we do and don't hear. |
dynaquest, i laugh at your post calling my post as BS. What a rude post, but that's fine by me.
Thanks though for telling me that what my wife shared with me was BS. I guess you are the audio police and only your views are correct. Maybe you don't have a resolving system where you can hear the difference and that's fine as wires and cables should be the LAST thing someone gets for their system IMHO (again MY opinion).
This is a forum and there are no absolutes in audio that I know of.
I'm glad you don't hear a difference, even though you say there may be subtle differences. Which is it? It doesn't matter, so no need to answer. lol. Hope you have a fun time enjoying music. I heard the there is no need for Tidal or Qbuz either as you can stream music from MP3's and that sounds just as good as higher bit rate music streamed. I bet you loved cassettes as much as you did albums. Enjoy the music.
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