Just answering the title of the thread.....The Trim & Cover. Only Magnepan for me, so there aren't a lot of choices beyond the size of the room. 😆
The real choice is designing a room to build around a set of 20.7
When choosing new Speakers, what matters most to you?
When auditioning new speakers have you ever listened to a pair you thought you really liked only to realize you didn’t like them at all after seeing their measurements/specifications? And I’m not talking about speakers that would be too difficult for your electronics to drive but rather, you just didn’t like their waterfall plot, or their frequency response or some other measurement even though subjectively, you loved the way they sounded? Conversely have you ever listened to a pair of speakers you did not care for only to change your mind after seeing their specs?
Assuming speakers can be easily driven by your home electronics, in other words, no compatibility issues related to sensitivity or impedance, what is the single most important thing you look for when finding speakers you’ll enjoy listening to? How do you go about confirming the speakers you buy will be enjoyable to listen to in your home system?
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How close the speakers are at portraying the live event, whether it be a chamber ensemble, symphony orchestra, intimate jazz performance, or an outdoor rock concert. No speaker that I've run into can replicate that spectrum perfectly - there are always compromises with any design choice. Only two speakers I've encountered that got close to ONE of those aforementioned mile markers: Wilson WATT/Puppy 5s reproducing Horowitz on stage Dunlavy SC-IV/As playing an acoustic performance of "Hotel California". That said - the Wilson wasn't able to "do live" as well as the Dunlavy; and that speaker had a hard time not getting "gritty" with solo instrument performances. |
A well known brand for sure. American made is great but not a deal breaker. We make very very good speakers in USA but you all know this. Matching the amp I have to the speakers, synergy is a must. If it is not smooth, efficient, non-distortion at high levels, etc... I move on quickly. The British brands have a few nice products . I wish I could try some quad amps and speakers some day, so good! |
I bought the speaker that I liked and then built my system around them. I know the sound I like and as soon as I heard Vandersteen’s I stopped looking. I then went on the journey to put the rest of the system in place. We all know the journey never ends and is a wild but fun ride. Never forget to find the time to enjoy the music! |
Why did you have to ruin his day by telling him the truth about all the foreign cars he had purchased and drove. Even they will tell you that 75% of gm vehicles are now built in mexico and canada in non union plants.
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I called up the chick with the Stradavarius….said I’ ll have what you got, but in Audi Phantom Black Pearl… Another in a series of agenda driven, self serving questions… BTW, while i own 7 pairs of speakers, my favorites measure great, win awards and come from a reputable made in USA company in business since 1977. |
for those who don’t get all the braincells washed by Faux, try reading a few books.. I would suggest : The Reckoning by David Halberstam and Boom, Bust, Exodus: The Rust Belt, Maquilas and a tale of two cities by Chad Broughton or Factoryman by Beth Macy of course, these are nuanced, detailed and not the polarizing crap you have been fed. And yes, i have managed in both union and other shops with up to 5k team members. I live by the saying “ you get the union you deserve “… While Tesla might pay well, Elon certainly chaffed at recogniz8ng the danger of Covid. You can’t buy safety.
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Do you believe everything you are told? Most GM vehicles sold in the US are manufactured in the US. Not all, but >50%. I don't have a handle on Mexico, but would expect, and a quick Google indicates all or close to all of their facilities in Canada are union shops. GM has the highest percentage of US content in its US made vehicles. GM sell AND makes more cars in China that the US now. For clarity, they are sold and made there. Passenger car MFG is moving out of the US and Canada because the sales are not there, and overall costs are lowest near your customers. Mexico can ownership is growing. Pickups and SUVs, are where the sales are in the US, and there is still strong MFG in the USA of those. Another point, is it is best to look at dollars, not total numbers. It is lower cost vehicles being shifted into production in the Mexico and other lower cost centers, higher dollar vehicles not so much.
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https://www.decware.com/paper49.htm....Hi Efficient speakers explained by an expert....Steve Deckert from Decware.... |
CINDYMENT, "Why did you have to ruin his day by telling him the truth about all the foreign cars he had purchased and drove. "Even they will tell you that 75% of gm vehicles are now built in Mexico and Canada in non union plants."
You’re going to tell someone that has been a lifetime union member, and President for the last 10 years of a 46-year career (before retiring) about what has happened to the labor movement? LOL Your funny.. I lived it. Just look over my lifetime of car purchases and you will soon understand that if everyone had myself and wife’s buying requirements (Including Speakers !) America would not be flat on its ass to China, Japan, and 3rd world markets. Try and find one car in this list that is not American built, by American Unionized workers and with all the Profits going back to an American owned Company. Please preach to someone that has not held the line, because I have. I’m 65 now, and I will keep doing what I’m doing as it’s how I was raised. Too late to change now… These are my lifetime of 19 cars and trucks, my wife could produce 19 of hers, but you get the point.
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there is no one single aspect. For me there are three: precise timbre, precise soundstage and lifelike dynamics. apparently those qualities do not translate well to measurements because i owned a pair dynaudio contour 60 which measure right... but they sound timbrically completely wrong and sound stage is completely messy. |
@nitrobob , started to type a response, but too many threads are going off the rail with politics. I suggest starting a new thread. I will just say that I support local when possible, but I will not reward incompetence long term. At some point "support local" turns into "abuse my good will". I won't accept the latter. |
cindymentYour right. You need to let people buy how they want to insead of being critical. The thread was labeled "what is your requirements" ... I listed mine, and you don't like them. I don't tell you how to buy, and I sure a hell won't be critical or condescending towards others that don't view my requirements, but you just did me. Let's move on ..., |
ghasleyNo not a Cosworth. But you obviously know your way around cars, not many people knew about them. Amazingly that old slime green Vega is the car I met my wife in. I knew she was a keeper as anybody that was driving THAT thing certainly didn't have much income. She sure as heck wasn't after me for my money! LOL . But it did have a pair of "Mind Blower" Speakers in the back. Maybe it was the future audiophile in me she was after .. Ha Ha |
@nitrobob did you keep the early Z ? good on ya, nice collection ! My Dad worked at New Departure H…. we had no lack for super precision bearings ;-) I am a drifting Robot burning up Caddy tires, my teacher is Hunter S Jim |
tomic601No. All I have is pictures of both those Z-28’s. I bought the first one with paper route money and drove it to high school. That 302 cu in engine made a lot of noise but was only a 14 second car. So, I talked my dad into letting me buy a crate engine.. a 427/430 L-88 and install in that car. Before it was over it had 4.88 gears, Hayes aluminum flywheel, Lakewood traction bars, Hooker Headers. Can you imagine letting your kid drive that animal to HS? It ran 11.88 @ 116 and in its day, on those little tires it was a wicked SOB.. The hardest part to believe is a paper route had the buying power to purchase such neat things. We grew up in the best of times, didn’t we? |
djones51Only the 67-69 Z-28s Chevrolets Camaro used this "Special High Performance" engine package. It was intended to cement their advantaging in the SCCA Road Racing Series that required no more than 305 cu. in. maximums. Chevrolet used a 283 Crankshaft with a 350 cu in Bore. This combination came out 302. The short stroke, big bore package was much faster revving and accelerating than their 305 engines that were made for street cars. They also incorporated a Duntov 30/30 solid lifter camshaft and underrated it (deliberately) to 290 HP so the young kids buying them could afford the insurance cost. Hope this cleans up your confusion |
@imhififan, I can put 20.7s in a closet and make then sound good. The only limit on speaker size is the width of the door. Computer speakers in a department store will certainly not work well. Specifications and measurements are two entirely separate issues. Specifications can lie, measurements do not. How many of you out there in Audiogon Land actually measure your systems? A loudspeaker's design will tell you a lot about how it functions in certain respects. It will not tell you how it sounds. A loudspeaker will sound different in two different rooms because the rooms sound different. In thinking about my own experience, I just bought a new pair of loudspeakers and I had never been in the same room with a pair. Not only this but I had them built to a specification that had never been done before. Fortunately, they are performing beyond all expectation. I have done similar experiments before resulting in total failure. Experience is the best teacher. In truth I have had decades of experience with similar loudspeakers so I knew exactly how they would perform. This is determined by the physical characteristics of the speaker. I was not worried about how they sounded because I can make them sound however I like. But, if a speaker can not image no amount of monkeying around is going to get it to do so. You have to determine what you expect out of a loudspeaker and the physical characteristics such a speaker should have. The way a speaker images, the size of it's sound stage, the way it radiates sound are not accidental. They are by design. A speaker's frequency response will vary wildly from one room to the next. In this day and age with DSP amplitude, time and phase are easy to deal with. You measure and tell the computer what you want it to do. Expectations are different. I expect a system to be able to simulate the sound and sensations of a live performance given the right program source and with any genre. A system that struggles to get down to 40 Hz can not do this. It is missing an entire octave! 3dB down at 40 Hz/1 meter is 10 dB down at 4 meters. So much for bass. Only line source arrays produce life sized images and they are inherently more efficient radiators of sound into the environment. They sound more powerful. The room is much less important to a line source dipole. They radiate in a very specific and predictable pattern and positioned correctly have far less interaction with the room. You hear more of the music and less of the room. Only horns are as predictable. |
I just now moved my speakers upstairs in the large living room from the basement which was my man cave. We sold the pool table we never use. The reason they were not at their full potential is their wide dispersion. They sound fan f ing tastic in the new space. So I would add dispersion to the things to consider. I have them listed for sale now and they are staying! Very happy although I can rarely crank them now! Double edged sword. |
nitrobob, I've bought ONE new car in my life. I see 3 homes vs cars and PUs in your list. I've know several mechanics that spent the same amount on tool truck purchases until the day they died. 100-500K in tools. Kinda like people that are addicted to Gambling and traveling. Not one bit of difference. My tools are so old the nickel plating on my old Snap On is wore to the copper. Many were my fathers. Of course there is a pick up load or two more, I'd give away to some NUT that wants to be a mechanic.. Good luck with that BAD idea.. Hardest job on the GD planet, being a heavy duty mechanic at 185-210lb. I had to live in a Gem for 40 of the 50 years just to keep from getting hurt.. I seen many a man bite the big one behind being a HD mechanic.. They all should go on strike and get paid right.. WAY under paid. Like a brain surgeon salary is about 1/2 of what I should have been paid. There are 5 oldhvymecs somewhere out there in skin I left behind, alone and 5 big swimming pools of sweat. No it was not worth it.. I feel like Mike Tyson after Buster KOed him. "What Happened"? A drip of Thorazine please, about 1/2 throttle will work. :-) Regards Think about that stupid robot in the original "Lost in Space", I ain't THAT robot. |
@nitrobob .... Just a point of clarification. Recheck your memory banks on #2 on your list. No such thing as a '64 Plymouth Newport...Chrysler Newport yes but Plymouth, no. There were four fullsize Plymouth model names in 1964...Savoy, Belvedere, Fury and Sport Fury. If somebody already brought this up then sorry, but I didn't read past the car list. |
....going back to what we 'were' chatting 'bot....;) Specs if available, waterfalls pref'd, typ. graphs at least. Listen if possible. If 'they' won't play what I do, " 'bye..." ...but, that's 'then', and now is Now. 8 pairs of speakers/drivers, 3 of which DIY. The drivers, not a box for..... Other than my Heils., I like mine...and liking how they measure as such. No place to go but up.....*damn*L* Small rooms are a PIA, but one needs to regard the space as an extension of the speaker itself, so position and room treatment are paramount. DSP should serve to 'fine tune' as opposed to 'sledge hammer' into 'refinement'... ...which generally doesn't work all that well. YRWVary....🙄
"Botless in Parapodise" |
As much as I love car talk, staying OT:
I love the immediacy of 'Steens. First introduced with a Model 3A (non-Sig), I found them only intriguing until the dealer put on some Baroque; very coherent sound. However, they were a bit too laid back for me (at the time), so ended up landing a really good deal (clearance) on a pair of KEF 104/2s. Got reintroduced with a Model 5 (pre-"A" and Carbon) at a Hi-Fi show. Didn't think that Vandy sound could've been improved on, but I was wrong. But - couldn't afford, so I ended up with a pair of Dunlavys they were selling on clearance prior to going out of business. And... Quatros (wow...). Been looking to move upwards, and they've been in my crosshairs... but gads - the $$$! |
Acresverde Yep, your right, she was a Chrysler! Good memory banks you have. It was kind of a dark blue, with a huge triangular looking grille, and downright ugly. And to OLDHVYMEC, I'm another one of those Snap-on Freaks. They are still here in the garage. I don't know how much money is in that set of boxes, but I'm betting you could by a pretty nice house with them. I know the day I retired we weighed the box (as the forklift loaded it in that dually Ford PU truck) that it weighs over 1100 lbs.. I was a heavy Equipment mechanic for Ralston Purina for 36 years. Same job with United Technologies for the previous 8. And I know guys, I'll try to stay on topic from now on. |
It personally depends on you. Different people have different preferences. I personally go for specs over brands such as bass, audio quality. After that, I look for a medium Brand. Last but not least I always look for the return policy of that Brand because last time I bought Airpod and I was really fed up with the apple return policy and the services they provide. So what I recommend is to go for those who give better services not Big brands. |
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US manufactured speakers offer better value since shipping speakers from overseas adds considerable cost, especially these days with all the logistics issues.. So, that would be a big factor for me; biggest bang for the buck. And, IMHO, Legacy is the best value in USA made speakers. I agree with Ted. So many instances where folks have speakers way too big for their rooms. But those folks are primarily buying with their eyes and not their ears. Often pushed in that direction by highly skilled but fundamentally dishonest salesmen. BTW, I respectably disagree with buying speakers based solely on measurements. |
@vinylvalet, do you mean measurements or specifications? Specifications are for all intents and purposes meaningless when it comes to loudspeakers. How a speaker is going to perform is based almost entirely on it's design. Frequency response characteristics can be adjusted but to what end? This really needs to be done in the speaker's final location. Where is this size phobia coming from? In order to make low bass a speaker needs to be larger. All those tower speakers with 6" woofers do not make low bass. A speaker's loudness limit is usually determined by it's tweeter. For arguments sake, lets say we have the worlds best 1" dome tweeter. I can put that tweeter in an enclosure with two 6" woofers and have a lovely little tower speaker or bookshelf. I can take the same tweeter and stick it in a much larger enclosure with two 6" midrange drivers and two 12" woofers. Both speakers will go just as loud but which one is going to make better bass? One guess only. Which speaker is going to be more enjoyable to listen to? Does the room size make a difference? The larger speaker is going to sound much better in any size room for two reasons, it makes more and lower bass and there is much less distortion in the midrange because those drivers have been relieved of the long excursions bass requires. As a rule of thumb bigger speakers are better. They are also more expensive so, you get the sour grapes attitude you frequently see and hear on this website. My speakers are HUGE and I love every square inch. There is not a single smaller loudspeaker I would care to own, even ones that are extremely more expensive. As most women know, size is everything:) |
profA Wise Man Once Opined: Given enough time, all audiophile threads will become a discussion about cars or watches. You're really dating us, Years ago watches would have been replaced with Women. |
Except any decent speaker review would include a range of measurements both on axis and off axis, and if they have good equipment can give you an idea of total energy (estimated room curve). It is not perfect, but if you learn how to read those graphs, you can learn a lot about how it will interact with your room. You can also identify things that will almost always be a problem. |
ANY speaker review, measurements or not, is just a nudge in the event you are shopping and wish to demo something. Its ok to buy gear without hearing it, however, I believe strongly that the purchaser should never whine about it working or not working out well in their system. Especially if they don't take a system approach and buy the gear to use in the manner that the manufacturer intended. I scroll right on past when someone can't understand why a certain well reviewed 4 ohm/85db rated speaker sounds bad with their 2 wpc tube integrated amplifier. |
