When a budget speaker is preferred to a high end one...
How many have experienced a situation when a more budget oriented speaker has a more preferred overall sound over a higher end speaker, something at 3 or more times the price? What are your thoughts, experiences and how can you explain this?
Considering the inordinate amount of garbage stockpiled into a Harbeth bookshelf speaker (like there was a contest to see which network could be the most complicated piece of junk anyone could produce on design day), it is not at all surprising to hear that a less expensive and well engineered speaker could wipe the room with them. While you didn’t mention brand, I did. Imagine what they could sound like if you could improve them. But you can’t. You’d have to go external to make any headway. Trying to replace all the cheap Chinese scraps in the network with quality components would be cost prohibitive in the face of the initial outlay and the fact that the cheaper parts are smaller. No room to do a straight swap in their bookshelf designs.
Don't sugarcoat it for God's sake. Tell us what's on your mind......
Yes, I've seen (heard) it happen many times. This is why I've always loved the Epi 100 speakers, and love them even more now that they're updated with Human Speakers parts. Rarely... rarely indeed... in 45 years have I heard any speakers that I'd rather have in my home for practical application: dispersive, tight, clear, non-fatiguing, not big size, not picky about placement.
I'm on the hunt, I suppose... trying out the Klipsch Heresy IV currently, but so far I don't see them supplanting the Epi's linearity and beauty. Heresy is a different experience, but not "better" to my ears. I'm looking at maybe the Polk R700, perhaps. But really, Epi - Human Speakers does everything, the best nice tweeter, including bass... maybe a modest sub I suppose, svs micro 3000 or something, but otherwise...
Human Speakers website makes original HS speakers too, one by one... Model 81, as it says in the description, is likely all the speaker most people will ever need. But of course you can use their parts and mod other cabinets, whether it be older Epi or Genesis, or one clever idea is to pop the Human woofer and tweeter into a pair of old Advent Prodigy and voila a small tower speaker that'll rival much, much more expensive speakers.
I think that when it comes to speakers, the smallest choices in design can make big differences. Mark Twain said the difference between the right word and almost the right word is the difference between lightening and a lightening bug. Some designers are so good at combining components and enclosures that they extract the best possible result. Surely it’s a matter of listening and tinkering, over and over, until it’s just right (from the designer’s perspective). Then if you like what the designer likes, voila!
He has a long history of making ridiculous statements, and when asked to back them up - which he is obviously incapable of doing - he puts the onus on the person questioning him to prove him wrong. And as clockwork, after a couple of posts in a thread, he inevitably insults all audiophiles on mass
Now, back to the opening statement
I am regularly surprised by how little is required to get passable sound. A $15 amp board from AliExpress, feeding a pair of diy speakers using inexpensive drivers, all fed via a $20 DAC, will provide surprisingly decent sound
it never ceases to amaze me just how difficult it is to produce a component that produces exceptional sound - using whatever metric you would use to define what that means to you.
Its all about personal preferences, musical tastes and the environment you listen in. The more specific, and nuanced you want the listening experience to be, costs go up accordingly.
Sometimes, a Big Mac, some fries and a cola really hit the spot. Other times, it’s foie gras and a Sauternes
This had definitely never happened to me. I research the daylights out of stuff… and speakers typically audition many. I take audio purchases very seriously.
So do I. Have heard my fair share of speakers over the last some 4 decades, and one thing is clear: design and overall implementation matters the very most, and adhering to physics. Expensive parts (and looks) only goes so far, and they don’t guarantee better sonic results - sometimes they even make them worse.
Proper design implementation in a speaker doesn’t come without cost, nor do designs that dictate size with the extra material cost here, but what takes expense to sometimes astronomical levels is luxury cabinetry and expensive drive units and XO parts - without them being strictly necessary from a sonic perspective, if you ask me. Not to mention acoustic treatment for highly and non-controlled dispersive speakers (as they’re most), which can be very expensive as pre-developed and -assembled products.
Peter Snell used almost dirt cheap drivers in his original speaker designs, but they sounded great and were highly respected among audiophiles. He understood the importance of design parameters, close tolerances and implementation as that which really matters, and it paid off. Bob Smith of the now sadly discontinued S.P. Technology speaker range (known for their relatively large dome tweeter-loaded waveguides) had a similar outset; why use a (much) more expensive Scan-Speak Revelator dome tweeter when a cheaper SB Acoustics variant with low fs and the right parameters overall was equally, or even a better fit in the used waveguide? WLM Audio speakers is another example: their previous, great sounding Diva model sported a relatively cheap 10" Eminence coaxial driver, and it easily held on to (also with its own unique qualities) times more expensive exotic driver-fitted high-end speakers, not only to my ears.
Not trying to say very good sounding speakers (given proper acoustical and setup conditions and all that jazz) can avoid being sometimes expensive, for obvious reasons, but such a well designed and -implemented speaker could easily be regarded as relative "budget" compared to an all-out über-luxury ditto with expensive everything from cabinetry and drivers to XO, and still hold its own sonically. As such I’ve heard quite a few relatively "budget" speakers that equaled, or even bettered much more expensive high-end luxury items.
I can't agree with you at all @fsonicsmith . Give me those Magicos and cheap but competent electronics with the room to match. I need a good turntable setup for some cherished recordings. The rest it's easy to find.
Considering the inordinate amount of garbage stockpiled into a Harbeth bookshelf speaker (like there was a contest to see which network could be the most complicated piece of junk anyone could produce on design day), it is not at all surprising to hear that a less expensive and well engineered speaker could wipe the room with them. While you didn’t mention brand, I did. Imagine what they could sound like if you could improve them. But you can’t. You’d have to go external to make any headway. Trying to replace all the cheap Chinese scraps in the network with quality components would be cost prohibitive in the face of the initial outlay and the fact that the cheaper parts are smaller. No room to do a straight swap in their bookshelf designs.
I own four sets of loudspeakers. My Large Advents and B&W M805's were re-worked by John L of Van L Speaker Works with new internal wiring and X-overs. My Devore O/93's and Spendor D7.2's do not suffer-I am pretty darned sure-from the maladies you describe.
But all that said, emphasizing the quality of the internals when there are so many other factors at play-driver quality, enclosure quality, overall design is a bit much.
I often wonder if it is more beneficial to spend money on a better than on speakers. I wonder if you can hear the difference. It would be nice to be able to do an A vs B comparison in your home to see what is best. Kind of like garbage in equals garbage out.
Considering the inordinate amount of garbage stockpiled into a Harbeth bookshelf speaker (like there was a contest to see which network could be the most complicated piece of junk anyone could produce on design day), it is not at all surprising to hear that a less expensive and well engineered speaker could wipe the room with them. While you didn’t mention brand, I did. Imagine what they could sound like if you could improve them. But you can’t. You’d have to go external to make any headway. Trying to replace all the cheap Chinese scraps in the network with quality components would be cost prohibitive in the face of the initial outlay and the fact that the cheaper parts are smaller. No room to do a straight swap in their bookshelf designs.
I like this thread because I have always felt that source and electronics are more important than choice of loudspeaker. I’ve said this many times in various threads-the choice of loudspeaker has the most effect on the character of the sound, not on the quality of the sound. This combined with garbage in, garbage out. Like the old adage that a good photographer can get far better results with a cheap camera than a novice can achieve with an exotically expensive camera, an experienced listener can do amazing things with optimally placing any well designed loudspeaker if the supporting components are in place and assuming reasonable compatibility between amp and speaker. It seems that I am in the minority due to human nature-most audio enthusiasts focus on loudspeakers because they garner the most visual and visceral attention. And, from a very real practical standpoint, it is easier to choose a set of loudspeakers and then choose the amp rather than vice versa. But, what is practical is does not necessarily equate to what is best. Time and again I see systems being listed on this Board consisting of very expensive loudspeakers- Magico’s being the flavor of the month-and what imho are inexpensive and sorely compromised supporting components. As always, just my humble op. The fact that I have a viewpoint does not mean I am right in this very abstract world.
@kenjitwrote: How about I turn the tables and ask you to show me evidence that there is any difference?
Unfortunately, that does not answer my question. Thus, I anticipate that you wrote "There is no difference between high end and budget speakers. Only the price." without any experience or knowledge on the subject and, I have wasted my time responding to you, which I shall not continue to do.
Years ago, I heard and fell in love with Martin Logan Monolith IIIx, active xover, two amps, lots of wire, cost a fortune, amazing speakers... bought them, and within a year, replaced them with Vandersteen 3As. Much better.
The problem was my room.
(Sold the Monoliths to a buyer in Japan and actually made money, so it's all good.)
I think it comes down to your order of preference: less expensive speaker can do some things spectacularly well (I love the Revel M106) and if that's what floats your boat, might as well stop there. But some, not all, more expensive speakers do many things well, and... can float more boats? Float bigger boats? I'm lost...
Good luck!
I heard the Radialstrahler System Xtreme in a good demo once... breathtaking. Truly breathtaking. $250,000 was a little high for me at the time (ya think?). But I heard the incredible sonics and could see the engineering and expense. Well done, MBL. Clearly they represent value for (an incredible amount of) money.
@ghdprentice It's never happened to me either in my personal system, and for the exact reasons you mentioned, proper research and auditioning.
@blisshifi I have to say the Scansonic MB2.5s showed me what could be done with a sealed ribbon tweeter, better sound than the Esotar II I had liked in the Dynaudio Sapphires.
Occasionally I have been wowed by the sound of great budget system and its probably a combination of things that all went right. Rare.
#psyop, have you seen a show "Suits"? One of the lawyers has an office with a wall of LP's, McIntosh amp, turntable, etc. It's all decoration. Never gets played. Here's your sign.
This is why my trusty Monitor Audio Silvers haven't been shown the door yet. They just work so darned well. I demo'd an SF Olympica with an MC452 driving it and was totally underwhelmed. I come back to my system is far from broken, and have one of the rare moments where I don't want to tinker. I do want to square off some sort of Klipsch vs. Zu on my upstairs system though.
Twice I have invested in a major speaker upgrade only to "build" thre rest of my system around them. The good news is thst with each susequent upgrade the speakers sounded better and better. I guess this is a testament to system and room matching. No speaker can sound great regardless of room or what it is being fed.
Lets not forget the people who buy audio for presentation and appearance purposes. These are not really audiophiles, gearheards or luvers of music. They want other people to think or perceive they have the best possible audio system. Period. I think these people make up a slim slice of the overall pie, and they will pay a very high inflated price for speakers for that purpose.
Yes this exact situation happened to me. I had an mv55 Conrad Johnson tube amp. I sounded glorious with my JM Labs Daline 2.1's, which were limited range speakers that went down to about 40 hertz. I put the mv55 on a pair of Wilson wp7s and heard a lot of grunge which made me think that Wilson's weren't so good. I asked the dealer who had let me do this experiment what was happening and he said that the amp was producing lower quality sound in the deep basd and that the Wilsons were now reproducing that where my JMLabs weren't.
So I don't know about better or worse, but if you have full range speakers you have to have higher quality electronics in the entire chain leading to it.
The key word in the OP is “preferred”, and no assertion of “best”.This is a fine but important distinction. It introduced the unavoidable factor of personal bias and personal taste , which we all understand.
@blisshifi clearly addressed the resultant highly variable, and intuitively bespoke personal value judgement options, in good form .. full stop.
“… “Price is what you pay, value is what you get.”
Very interesting thread. My experience is that this all becomes moot when you start focusing on the quality and uniqueness of the music. After 40 years of system building I just said this is my stereo and here I stay. Mostly. The access to new and interesting music is where I put my energy nowadays.
It's part of what afflicts too many humans. More cost equals better whatever but it's often not the case. From just about any objective measure a Camry is better car than a Ferrari 296GTB, but try convincing most people of that.
Decades ago in the 1970s i worked for a Philadelphia area chain, Wall To Wall Sound. As a come on we advertised Dynaco A25 speakers at a price I made no Commision. We also sold the original JBL 100s and the original Heil speakers for 4 to 5 times the A25 price. It was no contest. The Dynacos were smoother, less colored and had better bass.
My main speakers cost 20 times my digital source and 4 times my analog source. Jokes on you @juanmanuelfangioii .
@audiotroy , musicality is mainly frequency response and even the most accurate speakers need room treatment and/or equalization for good frequency response. Accuracy I would assign to distortion and I have never wanted more in a speaker.
Why would I ever want a warm DAC. Why not just equalize as needed.
I think it's also the reason that cheaper speakers are preferred, what is your environment? I had an AMAZING pair of Thiel CS3.6s, that are the best sounding speakers that I've ever heard in person and had a simple system that drove them incredibly well......my dream system.
Covid brought on a problem, both my wife and I started working from home full time with one office and one converted bedroom office....which we were in all day. I found myself listening to music much less frequency, because it became "an event" to listen to such large speakers that need to be driven harder (thus louder) to get their best sound. I had to make sure I was ready to crank it up, my wife had to be out of the house because she was exhausted from being couped in an office, and frankly I wasn't enjoying the system the way that is deserved to be enjoyed.
I made a hard decision, sold my Thiels and the accompanying system and started from scratch. Decided I wanted a system that sounded great at lower listening levels, which meant bookshelfs were in the mix. I'll save the gory details over the more than 3 months of comparing components, but in the end purchased a pair of Buchardt Audio S400 MkIIs driven by a Denafriips stack (Pontus II DAC, Hades Pre-Amp, and Thallo Amp) and started streaming with a Bluesound Node V3.
I now find myself enjoying music every day, for hours each day.....and loving discovering music from a different point of view. That pairing is amazing (to me) and is the correct system for where I am at this point in my life. Is it as good as the Thiels on an absolute basis? Of course not, as I said the CS3.6s were the best speakers I've ever heard. But am I enjoying this hobby again with renewed vigor? Yes, much more and I have not looked back....just letting the music play.
I feel the issue is we are not getting close to maxing out the speaker. I have a few systems. My cheap BestBuy insignia speakers sound so good hooked up to my 200 watt amp. I can’t turn it all the way up but it sounds incredible. My main speakers also sound great because I did not go so far beyond my system. Infact, I am well below what you would think I should have.
Whenever someone tells me that, "Speaker A sounds better than speaker B", I ask in what way? Nine times out of ten they reply that it sounds better in every way which is nearly impossible and reveals what kind of listener they really are. The bottom line, and as previously posted, is that there are many variables besides the prices. Foremost among them, room and system matching.
B&W has been a great example of this. I always found their lower end stuff better then their mid tier. The 680 series just sounded better then the CM series.
In my experience Ascend Acoustic Sierra towers with raal tweeters measured up to $5,000 speakers even so they cost under $3,000. Reasoning is builder has a ton of experience and keeps very low overheads since he does it all through his website with zero advertising expense. It's not rocket science. I have only good things to say about them even so I have moved on to bigger $18,000 speakers.
This had definitely never happened to me. I research the daylights out of stuff… and speakers typically audition many. I take audio purchases very seriously.
it really depends on what you are talking about many very expensive loudspeakers use very high resolution drivers and favor clarity over musicality so these speakers require careful matching to balance out the overall balance so adding a warmer dac or a tube preamp may be what is needed.
so the moral of the story is that the budget loudspeaker which may present less overall quality may be the more enjoyable because it is easier to live with because you wont have to work as hard to get that elusive balance between resolution and musicality.
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