@curiousjim that's awesome! We're pretty fortunate to have 3 local very down to Earth and very accommodating shops with true customer service reps. I'm not surprised as every time I have been to AV Therapy they make you feel comfortable the minute you walk in the door. Glad they took care of you. Like I said, even though I had to wait longer and could have saved a decent amount of $ going online I still went with my local shop because they took the time to really set me up and give me a great experience.
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@deone
They were super nice: said there were no customers in store so there was no problem if I even listened to a system. They took me to a room (Ayre amplification; don't remember speakers) and played for me and also chatted for a while. Super nice people, nice equipment, and great attitude.
Being super nice with a great attitude just seems like a better way to live, let alone make a sale. There seem to be two possible prompts for a sales person being a jerk -- they're in the wrong business or the customers and/or environment of the store have made them jerks. Not many here are admitting to be part of the problem, and maybe we have 100% sweethearts on this thread, but I bet those in sales could spin a tale of the Customer from Hell.
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ronboco
Yes Sir, If yo notice my posts, I TRY to NOT name names unless someone brings it up. The story is the important part. I hope to get down to the tech center and check them out. By now they should have their new store all set up and possibly they will be the new face of Audiophile equipment in Denver. There sure isn't much competition.
There was one outfit up around 40th and federal (close by) they operated out of an old house. They advertised the MOST ELITE of all equipment, but from what I could tell they didn't actually have any equipment set up . They were just a broker. I haven't seen anything from them for about a year. But you had put down $100K just to look at their web site hehehe.
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@esarhaddon If you join the CAS, you can visit the stores in Denver. Not only does the group visit private homes, they just went to Soundings, Aural HiFi, and most recently to another new store at 1431 Ogden specializing in tubes and efficient speakers. This group has a wealth of knowledge and some members learn more about gear by visiting one another's homes.
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hilde45
I would consider that a Great Honor to join. Warn everyone that I am an OLD country boy so sometimes the way I express myself don't come out the way is is meant. hehe!
>but yes I will be filing the paperwork post haste.
Just being able to compare notes would be so wonderful. And of course I hope that a good hearted argument isn't forbade.
And I won't list my entire bio here but I started out building (rebuilding) an old tube amp with a couple of 12" TV speakers to amplify a basic tube radio, in 66 or 67.
Started designing speakers in the late 70s while still in College at USC...
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@esarhaddon I'm in Denver if you ever feel like listening. Rough talk completely ok, but if you do too much of it, I'm going to stick a beer in your hand. ;-)
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I have had nothing but great experiences with my dealers in Nashville. Gestalt and Atelier 13 Audio. Very enjoyable doing business.
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I respond to attitude with gratitude. Thank you for your time, and leave without further conversation. Don’t expect good advice or service from anyone in any profession who postures by way of introduction.
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hilde45
If you have any influence wiht the Directors as CAS. I refuse to deal with PayPal
they are a crooked corrupt org that steals people money. I can’ make arrangements for a check or pay cash in person as long as I can get an official receipt.
The pay button show credit cards but no link to pay by them.
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@esarhaddon This is a very relaxed group of people. Just tell them you want to join and will bring your membership dues to the first event. Or work something out. They're not in it for the money.
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@upshift Interesting system. Very pleased that the PL700B is still running. Our experience with them back then was that the owner would manage to make them fail pretty much every time. CONGRATS!
The rest of your system sounds fine, and if YOU like it IN YOUR ROOM, you are good to go. I wouild make suggestions, but you didn't ask for any, so...
There is a small shop just over the line in Deerfield on the East side of the street that you migh want to visit. You might have to make an appointment, but I think they are the closest "high-end" shop if you are interested. Audio Center is the name, I think.
I retired and moved from Boca after 49 years there. I just couldn't take it any more. I am in Hobe Sound now, and it reminds me of Boca back then when there were about 20,000 people living there, and only about 10,000 during the off season. Nice town in those days.
Cheers!
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@richopp
Thanks, I did have the 700B worked on once but it and the Infinities are in semi-retirement now. I rebuilt my system a little over a year ago. I was familiar with the Audio Center.and bought some things there over the years. I was in contact with them when I was first in the market a year ago but he had to move out, after the covid shutdown the landlord jacked up the rent so he had to move out. I know what you mean about the changes here, between the taxes and the insurance we're contemplating a change.
Back on the topic, I rebuilt my system over the last year ago. I had my Carver Siler7t amps rebuilt as the base and worked with the folks at Crutchfield. They have knowledgeable experts in many areas and will spend the time with you to get to the right components plus they have a 60 day return policy. To start off I bought a Rogue Audio Sphinx V3 off of Audiogon to go with the Carver amps. Then from Crutchfield I filled out the rest of the system with a Pro-ject Turntable, BlueSound Node Streamer and a pair of Wharfdales. Everything was good but I was not totally pleased with the vocals on the Whardales so I returned them and moved to a pair of Martin-Logan ESL X speakers. They are fantastic!
I'm now in the market for a tube based preamp but Crutchfield does not handle any tube equipment so I'm still doing some research and looking around.
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Great advice and trips down memory lane for Audio shops. I Miss Tweeter. Do not waste time with poor performance Dealers/Retailers. Eventually, those operations will fold. Instead, seek out Music lovers that are still into CD and Vinyl playback systems. Servers and Streamers need not apply.
Second, steer clear of operations that engage in silliness such as Social Media scores. You know who you are.
Happy Listening!
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My only negative experience was when I went to an audio store that had actually featured a bunch of Sony products at an event night, and I tried to buy a Sony HAP-Z1ES digital music player as an upgrade to my older Mac Mini. This Sony item was priced somewhere between $1k and $2k, and I was ready to buy that day. On both occasions, the salesmen acted like it was something they carried only irregularly and tried to upsell me to some kind of streaming system they couldn't explain to my satisfaction. Zero dollars spent. Mac Mini still working today, plus BluOS streaming through a Node.
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If I am in a store to buy something expensive I expect to be treated respectfully. No exceptions. I will ask for the manager if the junior salesperson isn't courteous or acts out badly. Same with being at a car dealership. If it is a stereo shop and the manager or owner has a bad attitude I will just walk out.
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First experience as a lad going into a Hifi salon looking for blown 12" woofer for my Sansui speaker: "Those aren’t worth the postage to send them over here from Japan."
Second experience presenting my little 25wpc Pioneer receiver to a "tech" at a Kenwood amp clinic. Me" "Is this amp any good?" Tech (snarky, dismissive): "I think you’re about to find out!"
Years later, life pointed me towards a career in audio. I went in for an interview with David Beatty in Kansas City. Mr. Beatty was "the goto guy" for quality audio in the region. The interview was conducted in the "mad scientist area" of the facility. It was at the exact moment that David first fired up an new Nakamichi cassette deck, which he messed with during the entire interview. The interview was interrupted with David’s comments (asking surprised): "This thing is good! This thing is REALLY good!" His enthusiasm was contagious and may have helped push me along into a making my hobby my career for 43 years.
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I started my audio journey back in the early 70s. Myself with wife and another couple also interested in exploring good audio, would travel about 90 miles to a college town, new audio store that sold audio gear quite above anything that was available in our area. We found the small staff to be true audiophiles who were generous with their time and sharing of their knowledge and experience in audio.
We sometimes would have to schedule our listening sessions for the evenings, as after a day of work and a 90 mile trip it would put us there after closing time. They were always very accommodating, pleasant and helpful. through them we purchased some very nice gear but were never pushed to buy something just to make a more expensive or profitable sale. we also were always treated very fair when trading equipment for an upgrade. I have memories of nothing but great experiences with that audio boutique and its fine staff.
Over the years I’ve had mostly positive experiences with audio boutiques and sales people, but I did have one particularly bad experience while traveling through Southern CA. when I stopper at a very fancy looking audio store in San Diego. Having an interest in picking up a particular piece of equipment needed for a second system, I went into the store where I was met by a smug acting sales person who, not so politely, ask if I had an appointment. When I tried to explain that I was passing through the area and what I was looking for, he dismissed me, saying there wouldn’t be an appointment available until the following week. Oh well, a mer $1K or $2K sale probably wasn’t worth their time anyway. The laughable thing was that, except for a few smug looking sales people, mostly doing nothing and a couple of sound rooms set up with mediocre looking audio gear, the store was empty.
Jim
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I knew a snooty salesman that used the ploy of asking customers how much they wanted to spend then demonstrating a well matched system that was much more expensive before saying -But of course you can't afford that -before moving to a bad sounding poorly matched system .It was surprising how many people fell for having their ego challenged and ended up buying the expensive products or system.
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I knew a snooty salesman that used the ploy of asking customers how much they wanted to spend then demonstrating a well matched system that was much more expensive before saying -But of course you can't afford that -before moving to a bad sounding poorly matched system .It was surprising how many people fell for having their ego challenged and ended up buying the expensive products or system.
😂 I mean I can't hate that guy. I admire the hustle. And if those customers are so easily led - ending up with a rockin hifi is one of their better possible outcomes.
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My issue is when I want to purchase they many times try to go for retail price plus tax ,I feel you should get a minimum of15% off and many times I have to buy online because a specific brand maynot be in my area.
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Many are def strongly opinionated/full of themselves- to their detriment imo. I stopped in a well known store on Park ave in NYC recently to specifically hear a 10k DAC streamer. The solo sales guy spent an hour talking about every other DAC he could think of, all of his high end systems he'd sold, watches, cars etc. and never walked me over to see or hear the DAC. He monopolized the conversation and had an opinion on everything- other than stopping to actually listen to me and demo a couple products. I was only there to hear that one DAC and was completely serious about buying it. It was as if he had to talk the entire time and thought I'd buy without hearing or even seeing the DAC- bizarre.
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Denver for some reason doesn’t have many audio stores. The nicest one has snobby sales people. They make me feel uncomfortable. I have never purchased anything there as a result.
I subscribe to Redfin in order to see what homes are selling for in my area. What amazes me is so far I have not seen a single pair of speakers sitting in a room. What also amazes me is how people live in very expensive home are watching TV and listening to their tiny TV speakers. Are people over extended and don’t have money left over to watch TV through surround speakers. To me at least 50% of a movie experience is sound. Also are people allergic to music? I think people are over extended and living for their mortgages. I can understand how hi-fi shops are doing poorly. We must be a rarity.
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An interesting, and appropriate question. In reading through the replies, I have to agree that I have run into a few audio salespeople who “knew everything”, and had no interest in answering my questions. I had also agree with the “80-20” rule cited above. At a CES Show at McCormick Place, many years ago, I was fortunate to speak with Richard Vandersteen about how much more money is required to have a small improvement in a system. So while I agree that are those “sales types” in the industry, I would be remiss not to cite the “Great Ones” that I’ve had the good fortune to find and deal with. Eric Lang at Salon 1 Audio in Ormond Beach, Florida, and Taylor Everhart at Goldprint Audio in Lexington, NC. The most receptive, understanding, honest and helpful dealers that I have encountered in 40 years in this passion. I also need to mention the great folks at Rogue Audio. Always willing to listen and help, the aforementioned folks are some of the “Cream” of the industry. Allow me to extend a personal “thank you” to these folks, and offer to all who read this post, speak with these folks and you won’t be disappointed.
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Liked Audio Dimensions, Harry was kind and a wealth of knowledge. The old Absolute Sound, who I bought a bunch of equipment from over the years as they patiently supported my regular visiting, learning, and long listens. And now have a really great relationship with the guys at of David Michael Audio. Real gentleman and music lovers, all in Royal Oak, MI. Can’t say enough good things about the DMA guys. They have even graciously hosted our SMAC Southeast Michigan Audio Club several times.
Have I experienced elitist a’holes in the audio business? Sure. Most of them don’t get repeat visits or any business from me.
Keep in mind; customers as well as proprietors can be insufferable, and less than kind beings. We all share a responsibility here.
The bottom line: I spend my money with the people that I like.
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I hate shops with salesmen that tell you what they think you should be hearing in an audition, and have actually asked them to keep their opinions to themselves as they held zero interest for me - I was only interested in what I thought.
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@tonykay
Another audio wasteland here in Nevada! I just ran into this issue here at a shop in an expensive part of Las Vegas. Walked in to look for a preamp and get a general idea of the store and staff. Was ignored most of the time, sales staff acted busy talking to each other and on the computer, another was boxing up some piece of equipment. My wife joined after a while and got the same impression.
I finally asked someone a question about a preamplifier and was given curt single sentence answer then he returned back to the other sales person. Gave him the benefit of the doubt that he was engaged in something important or time sensitive. Asked another salesperson about room treatments and same thing short answer, pointed to the brochure and back to talking to other salesperson.
Guess I wasn’t dressed expensive enough for their time, and no I’m not young just the opposite.
Unfortunately this is about the only store I’m aware of in my area but I won’t be doing business with them.
Maybe a weekend trip to AZ shops TonyKay pointed out!
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I have never really experienced bad customer service by a salesman/owner. I guess I have that look...
But at one time I was looking at Sonus Faber speakers. The salesman demonstrated the Cremora.
It all sounded fine with the music the salesman used. But when I had him play some CCR boy did the speakers distort! It was funny watching the salesman run to turn the volume down. So much for that demo.
ozzy
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We are not stupid and so ignore their condescension. Remember that salespeople are trained to separate you from your money; don’t take it personally. 😉 Act accordingly by protecting your own interests and money as family members. In my experience, the boutiques are more interested in home theatre installations so if you don’t have at least $20K to spend you’re wasting your time. Regarding electronics, I learned from reading circuits and chipset literature, there is much commonality or "me too" with the expensive and affordable equipment. Open the hood and you may see different power supplies and passive components; however, the circuit topology coupled with the usual Analog Devices, AKM or ESS Sabre chipsets are exactly same as you would find in cheaper equipment. The technologies in Class A, AB and D amplifiers has matured so don’t believe the hype. Unless you really want to have a specific name plate on your stuff, you guys know the usual suspects, you may be restricted to dealers only. Go into the stores, have them turn on the equipment, don’t make small talk and only ask questions you already know the answers too. If you want to control the conversation, show interest and ask nicely "Why should I buy from you?"
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OP i needs more info ... do you mean rootin tootin cocaine snooty saleasman or pinky held high whilst they look at you ascance with the snooty eye ... i have had good luck with both but usually outside of the hifi realm...
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+1
@larry5729
same company in Boulder same behavior. I buy cables from them sometimes if the price is right, I think you’re being very generous by saying they make you uncomfortable.
I ordered my cables over the phone, walk in and pay for them and leave
Bent in Boulder
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mates, you gotta walk in the door and say "bitches, i am here to spend my momey on hifi! it hurts when I can't spend my my money!" you get attention faster
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No experience. If you want to help me and make a sale, be nice and show me why I should buy your product. There's so much rubbish on the market that you have to keep your eyes wide open, and your ears paying full attention.
Rude salesmen lose sales.
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Audio Vision in San Francisco is as snobby as they come, and seem to be more interested in stroking their egos. If you don’t look like you can afford the stuff, they talk down to you and actually make snobby jokes at your expense...never had this happen to this extent despite being in the hobby for over 40 years. I’ve owned some very exotic stuff from Wilson, BAT, AR, Focal Utopias, Krell, etc. most purchased new from local dealers. (I've finally settled on SET and home brewed stuff). So sad...some dealers just don’t get it.
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Newbee, I think your attitude is a tad bit harsh. Even if we are very busy people we have to allow for others in a social interaction. We as individuals are just not too important for that imho. Many young people are trying to earn a living. It’s completely okay for them to want to socialize and if they are sales people, to eant to succeed in meeting their quota. Doesn’t mean one is obligated to buy anything. If we love audio and so do they, that’s common ground. Most will not try to force too hard, and will understand if you are not interested in buying anything but what you have interest in. In a box store such as Best Buy, many of those employees will be impressed with the knowledge and experience many of us audiophiles possess. I just think its good to share positivity with people, especially young people.
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I'm also glad to see Natural Sound mentioned.
I started going in there back in the early 90's as a college student. They were always patient with my tire kicking... I took advantage of their trade up policy and assembled a system I still have today.
Recently,I would drive by there wondering if they were doing OK, with all the internet sales and discounted websites.As I haven't been in the market for a long time. I eventually decided to upgrade my B&W speakers.
After a couple demos at a different dealer, for a brand NS didn't carry and one they didn't stock. I scheduled a demo for a pair of Revel speakers at NS, Mark was more hands on than the other salesman, but never pushy or rude. After starting me off with a few tracks he recommend, he let me choose my music and volume level, while he leaned back and nodded his head along with the music. I ordered the Revels a few days latter!
Aaron at Safe and Sound was also great to deal with. No pressure, but a few hints as to what he liked or thought I would.
He even demoed the speakers with the amp I bought from him a month ago. He just set up the speakers, handed me a tablet and said take as long as you want.
I bought the amp after my second visit as I sometimes feel guilty for wasting their time.
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IMO the customer dictates how the salesperson will react. There is always the "know it all guy" that can’t stay silent or the "everything is overpriced" how do you expect a salesperson to react? I talked at length to a Sonus Faber rep. regarding the Maxima Amator after a brief demo I told him the speaker was to polite(soft) for my taste he respected my opinion and suggested the Nova series. Since the Nova 3 was set up I listened and concluded the Nova 3 was superior to the Maxima, he disagreed but we respected each others opinion. If you make an effort to give a positive first impression you will never have an issue.
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Sadly, Audio snobbery pushed me to purchase almost entirely on the internet.
I used to work in a record store/audio retailer in the 70s.
Back then it was fun and about the music. Over time it became almost a competition for audio stores/salesmen to show how much more they knew, and how much your gear sucked compared to theirs
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When I attend Axpona this weekend my focus will not only be on the gear but watching how others interact with the sales reps./dealers. The last audio show I attended was about 10 years ago and there were some unscrupulous individuals in attendance. In the Vapor Audio room 3 clowns reeking of cannabis were demanding the sale rep. to play Paul Butterfield Blues Band. After 5 plus minutes of poorly recorded harmonica noise the Vapor rep finally hit stop and the three stooges stumbled out the door. At the same show the local Magnepan dealer closed for the last day due to someone breaking a switch on an ARC component. Unfortunately this tells me some people even Audiophiles don't know how to act in a social setting. I just hope most(all?) attendees bring a positive attitude and some social graces so this can be a pleasant event even for our wives.
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The shop I mentioned in my comment, with the swindling salesman, was indeed, Sound Advice, in its second incarnation in South Florida. They had re-opened three stores. I went to the Miami Dade store to buy the PrimaLuna integrated amp. Unfortunately, it was right around the time we got a visit from Hurricane Irma so I lost about two or three weeks. However, once settled back to normalcy, I verified with Upscale Audio, the distributors of PrimaLuna, that they had never placed the order for my integrated amp. I wrote about my experience here:
https://themightythunderer.wordpress.com/2018/08/28/sound-advice-has-left-the-building/
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I’m floored when I see people respond to this question with something like, "Snobs? What are you talking about? I’ve never met a salesman who wasn’t the salt of the earth and willing to give me the shirt off his back!" I’m not even going to go into the stories of my own experiences. They match the overwhelming number of examples here in this conversation - a mixed bag with plenty of disappointment and unnecessarily rude treatment.
But who are these people who get great treatment from HiFi salesmen? I’m not buying that they’re just new at it, rich, or lucky. I think they’re just full of it. Steve Guttenberg the stereo writer claims that the overwhelming number of salesmen he's met are the exact opposite and then turns around and explains how terrible customers are. Funny, if salesmen are so good and patient and even handed, why the follow-up about how bad customers can be? That doesn’t smell right. I think he has seen plenty of rude salesmen and chooses to reinterpret the question in a convoluted way so he can justify being contrary. Maybe there’s a perfectly clear reason why they come off as snobs and treat people like morons. But saying that they’re a patient professional bunch and don’t act rude is not even remotely credible. The comedy skits and popular stereotypes have a solid basis in the reality where I live.
I have experienced both ends of the spectrum since I started looking in HiFi shops in the mid ’70s. Unfortunately now I don’t know of a place I could go to look and ask questions without being given a snotty attitude, skeptical treatment, and just plain disdain from the salesmen.
And some people have the nerve to ask why brick and mortar shops in a field where in-person auditioning is particularly useful have almost completely disappeared. I think it's blatantly obvious that the field attracts a lot of rather difficult men who aren't good salespeople.
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I knew a snooty salesman that used the ploy of asking customers how much they wanted to spend then demonstrating a well matched system that was much more expensive before
I had the opposite experience, most of the times they would refuse to connect speakers above my budget and I didn't push it. I understood it was a waste of their time (not that I couldn't have been upsold)
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It must be the places you guys frequent. Have you brushed your teeth lately? Just kidding...
In my area there is only one Hi-End Store left. Paragon Audio and they have always treated me well. Years back when there were more stores, again, they were always kind and willing to demonstrate anything I wanted to hear. Sometimes I would call ahead so what I wanted to hear could be connected.
Why would they not try to be helpful? Stating that, I am sure there are bad apples, they are in every profession, but they will be weeded out when they don’t eat.
Perhaps, some of you guys are starting out with a bad attitude?
ozzy
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@ozzy I have to agree with you about Paragon audio, they will let you listen to any system they have even if you say you are not buying anything today.
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Snobby. Thats funny. Its like a car purchase ranked in tiers. Not many people will spend 5k on a system, let alone 100k. In the end it plays music and no more. Hi-fi enthusiast dont listen to music, they listen to the equipment and I have been guity of this many times. Once the honeymoon phase is over on the.equipment, back to music. I keep a few vintage eq to change up sound. But for me, its all about music. If I had unlimted funds, maybe I'll spend alot on it. But right now, I enjoy what I have and its still a pretty penny for sure. I'm listening with Luxman 590AXII with Silverline Sonata II
Tier 1
Ferrari, Lambo. Bentley
Tier 2
Mercedes, BMW
Tier 3
Chevy, Ford
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Cresendo in Wheatridge Co is excellent... knowledgeable, easy to work with
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Upon reflection in addition to Cresendo...I have had excellent experience with Music Direct and Upscale.....
During my search I did have an amusing experience with a manufacture (US based) ... During my conversation with their TECH EXPERT... after I explained what I was looking for his next comment was "The minimum I WOULD ALLOW, was such and such components"
I just started laughing, thanked him and disconnected...
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I wouldn’t say the stores are rude but it just always feels as if coming to listen to something for more than a few minutes is annoying to them. Not to mention the salesman standing there the whole time. Please turn me loose wit the IPad and let me listen. None of them do that. Might as well buy online or used.
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I have been fortunate when it comes to stereo shops. And I do believe in having valuable relationships. Over the last 3 years, I've been more active in upgrading than I expected and I think part of the reason is the rapport with the local store.
The openness has resulted in me acquiring demos or being informed of potential trade-ins from other clients when it fits into my goals.
I'm sure they have clients they don't like to see... and when it comes to 'value' I enjoy listening to music more than ever.
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I had the pleasure of watching Lyric in NYC go broke.
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I have not purchased from a B&M since 2004..perhaps you should take heed.
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