I live in California and a couple of weeks ago we had strange lightning storms that started the many fires burning in the State. It also fried the fuse in my Pass XA30.5. I got the amp second hand and it came with a SR Blue fuse. I called Pass and they recommended a very cheap fuse which I ordered and installed. Because I was curious, I took the SR sticker off the old burnt out fuse and found that it was a very cheap SIBA brand fuse underneath. It is clear that SR is either not making the ceramic casing for this fuse or using the SIBA fuse and then doing stuff to it. At the very worst, it's just slapping a sticker on it and charging a ton more
The thing is, I'm pretty sure I could hear a difference for the worse when I installed the cheap glass fuse post lightning storm. Could it be that SR is modifying an existing fuse to make it sound better? Maybe some more technically minded folks here on the forum could help me understand
Of course they are. Which you would know if you followed my posts. Oh well. Only a few thousand of them worth reading.
First of all, main thing, you noticed it does indeed sound better. Question is, Why? Which if we knew that then why would we need Synergistic? We would just make our own. So its worth the money regardless of how its done.
What Ted does, so far as we know, is subject the fuse to a million volts or so from a Tesla coil in a process he calls Quantum Tunneling. Then he slaps a little dab of magic goo on there. Which if you were the least bit smart you were careful to keep and not throw away with the sticker. Because it says right on there to not remove it. Which that's what we call a clue.
If you kept it you could tape or glue it onto your cheap POC fuse and hear the difference. While you're at it you could swap ends and see if your cheap POC fuse is directional. Might as well play around and learn stuff like this. Got to do something to pass the time while waiting for the new Orange Fuse you are gonna have to order if you ever want that amp to sound good again.
Another thing you learned, how all manufacturers are blind and in denial about just how much their gear can be improved by stuff like this.
Now go dig around in the trash, find that bit of goo, and hang onto it. You can add it to the Orange Fuse you ordered to make it even better.
Hi adam, welcome to the world of aftermarket hifi fuses. Virtually all such makers start with a cheap existing fuse and then modify it. This very often results in better sound than the stock fuse, but is, like you say, kind of a sham considering how little it may cost for them to do that. On top of that, their measurements for their fuses are woefully incomplete or non-existent and occasionally some will just flat out lie.
If you ask me (and I know you haven't) and you want to see what one of the very few legit aftermarket fuse maker's product looks like (I use them, anyway), go to alanmaherdesigns.net and look good at the specs listed for their fuses and directly compare them to anything out there...if you can find their specs.
Noise reduction through fuses is important, the fuse is the weak point of the entire power supply, but truly reputable dealers (both with fuses and the power-treatment field in general) are hard to come by. They're often stealing tech from each other without fully understanding what it is they've stolen and how to best to implement it.
AFAIK, Alan develops his own tech. Others do in fact steal from him.
I’m just speculating here, but: back in the days when tubes were a bigger thing, there were quite a few good, major and minor operators, that were contracting others, to turn out and rebrand valves, for them. Could it be, that Synergistic has fuses, or their components (casing, wire, caps), produced by someone else, to their specs? Then: does whatever Voodoo they do? Do they draw the wire, with which they build their cables/interconnects? I don’t know. Just that they certainly do work well. But; no- my fuses are all HI-FI Tuning.
It's kind of difficult to do your own wiring for example, if you use OCC, since (I believe) there's still only the one factory producing it in Japan. Most wire sellers rely to some degree on suppliers.
Just to be clear, my post was not intended as a takedown of Synergistic Research. In fact, I noticed the blue fuse actually did sound quite a bit better than the other fuse I installed. I guess I'm just interested in what they are doing to that cheap SIBA fuse to make it sound so good? Maybe it's a trade secret but I thought maybe somebody might have insight into "how the sausage is made"
@adam8179 So lighting strikes caused surges on your local power grid, enough to cause at least one fuse to blow right? Yikes. Sorry to hear; I do wonder if it’s possible that other components were stressed in your amp, or other gear, and that might be responsible for the perceived degraded sound your hearing. I would always defer to the chiefs at Pass Labs, they know best. Do you by chance have any transient surge protection in your breaker panel or power conditioner?
I contacted Pass and they assured me that at their old factory near the Desolation Wilderness, they would often get hit by lightning. They lost office equipment but the guy I talked to said they never fried a power amp. I do have an Isotek power conditioner but unfortunately I had the Pass amp plugged directly into the wall as some folks said this was the best practice. I now have the power amp plugged into the Isotek for the protection and I think it actually sounds better. The amp was on standby when the lightning hit. There was no bad smell or any other indication of electronics getting fried. All this being said, it still sounds great. These are minor differences
Condescending narcissism is what I've come to expect from @millercarbon, these days . His stock in trade...especially now that he's bucking hard for Geoff's old job. He may not be as smart, but he's made up for it with sheer abject character assassination before.
lightning storms are a once in a decade event where I live. I feel comfortable with the protection afforded by my power conditioner. This lightning storm was really something very strange. Hopefully it will not become the "new normal"
Fuses don't act fast enough for surges, by the way. That's not their purpose. They are there to protect against shorts in the equipment, and as such they are kind of slow.
If a surge happened to blow a fuse, it already went through your gear, you are lucky to have it turn on after that.
With Erik on this one for sure. If you got nailed by lighting, you are lucky you have anything. Personally, I would have the amp looked at just for the sake of doing it. If it was a cheapy, probably call it a reason to upgrade, but being a Pass amp, I’d send it in. Won’t hurt... except being out of tunes for a bit.
I guess I'm just interested in what they are doing to that cheap SIBA fuse to make it sound so good?
From what I gather they "stroke it"😜, and hope it doesn't blow🤣, apparently some do because they've "maybe it said " been cryo'd and weakened, so instead of being say 2A they are now maybe 1.5A rating
People are born into projection. Logic is not a given, it is thing that people have to learn.
Logic is an idea, a conceptual position in a reality built out of emotionally controlled and re-projected bits of deeply colored perception.
All of reality is subjective, objectivity is an idea proposed in the attempt of the mind to find it’s way to proposing logic. To refine and distill analysis.
Objectivity does not exist. It is a conceptual state that is forced, and wholly unnatural. It stands on the shoulders of an entirely subjective edifice and bedrock.
What does that say about science?
It says the same derisive comment (in an unspoken kinder fashion) that Edward Bernays said to all the people that his emotionally oriented methodologies were targeted to bend, which numbered into the eventual billions: "Don’t be Stupid." As for science and the whole objective vs subjective reality we face. Science says: ’Observation Is King". That everything starts with observation.
Follow the logic of this, does one?
I dearly hope so, as the next step is not ’emotionally comfortable’, for some... in how it proposes the mind may position itself, where...
It does not mean that projection in science can dismiss observation. Nor does it say that illiteracy and lack of intelligence can propose a mental shortcut to dismissal, in the face of a thing the lesser intellect and lesser capacity cannot attempt to understand.
Another +1 on a whole house surge protector! I had one put in in three years ago after issue$.
Also live in NoCal. On Aug 16 we had 2.5 hours of a nasty brownout. Many around here had issues, some very co$tly.
My Amp is plugged into power conditioner despite advice to plug in to wall directly I have tried to hear a difference.. purported clipping etc at high volumes and never have.
Not sure where in California you are but around here (sac area) more brown outs are predicted.
If you haven't guessed already.....Brown outs can also zap your gear..Big time.
So pretty much nobody really interested in what they are doing with the fuse. Meanwhile, back at the millercarbon ranch, while you all carp and cavil he’s applying all the little things you all work so hard to dismiss and getting sound that is to die for.
graphene, diamond dust (12-1600), and a dab of nuclear never seize, thin it with mineral spirits for a slow dry, and or lacquer thinner for quick dry.
Paint the silly thing, and let it settle in the working position for a while, let the fumes evaporate if you just painted it, or turn it on and blow your face off. :-) DON’T DO THAT... DON’T BLOW YOUR FACE OFF. Unless your real ugly. Thats a preference of mine, I like ugly. :-)
While I don’t have the answer to any of your questions, I can tell you that in my Nuprime amplifier, the Synergistic Orange fuse was nothing short of unbelievable. This is the best tweak I have ever tried and I have absolutely no regret. If you have $160 on a credit card, give it a try. If it doesn’t work for you just return it, no question asked for a full refund.
This is how I'm wired and what I thought about in going from from Blue to Orange. Color stuff is in my wheelhouse but not as high up a dog walking....hang on..let me finish this post first.
In subtractive colors the two make black. "I want my baby back."
If additive colors you get a deep purple...."smoke on the water".
I guess I'm just interested in what they are doing to that cheap SIBA fuse to make it sound so good?
They are probably polishing the contacts, if the fuse is made by someone else. They might even be sending them out after that for silver plating.
Fuses don't act fast enough for surges, by the way. That's not their
purpose. They are there to protect against shorts in the equipment, and
as such they are kind of slow.
This statement is false. Having repaired many bits of consumer gear hit by surges caused by lightning strikes on the power grid, I've seen many blown fuses. When lightning strikes the AC power line, it can easily vaporize the fuse.
As to why the fuse makes a difference, its easy to measure. Its the AC voltage drop across the fuse. Because fuses have to heat up in order to blow. as the amp is playing peaks, the voltage drop increases. The contacts on the end of the fuse make a difference too- which has led to the idea that fuses are directional (they aren't). Its just that sometimes the fuse sits better in its holder if you turn it around (although by simply rotating the fuse you can get the same effect, which can be seen by a reduced voltage drop across the fuseholder).
yeah with the yearly fires and yearly brownouts I might need to look into some more extensive protection for my gear.
Wondering if anyone has any info on what can be done to fuses to make them sound better than others? I am not technically inclined but I'm just curious? This is from the Synergistic Research website describing the orange fuse:
"At its core are new UEF Technologies and a completely new multi-stage high voltage treatment process for the lowest noise floor of any fuse we have ever manufactured"
can somebody translate this for me? Again, not trying to promote or debunk aftermarket fuses, just trying to understand
a completely new multi-stage high voltage treatment process for the lowest noise floor
Noise floor in a fuse? That is probably the thing that has to be explained.
We've seen some fuses that have a Teflon or similar sleeve around the fuse element, possibly meant to keep it from vibrating (if you watch a fuse as it sits in an amplifier circuit, you can see it move from the current flow through it). The problem with this is when the current of the element is exceeded, the metal is supposed to get white hot and fail- but the Teflon tube keeps it in place, allowing current to continue to flow. This can result in a plasma state, not really what you want a fuse to do at all!
The contacts on the end of the fuse make a difference too- which has led to the idea that fuses are directional (they aren’t). Its just that sometimes the fuse sits better in its holder if you turn it around (although by simply rotating the fuse you can get the same effect, which can be seen by a reduced voltage drop across the fuseholder).
But even this Ralph is null and void also, when the equipment has regulated supplies, as many "directional fusers" claim differences in fuse direction on their preamps and source equipment with regulated supplies. As for them blowing for no reason, if indeed they do cryo them, this "can" make the fuse element more fragile harder/stiffer and suspect to de-rating it’s amperage and hence (blow earlier), a bit the opposite to what happens to us the older we get. "IT"S ALL JUST SNAKE OIL"!!
According to Atmasphere, the fuse makes a measurable difference. But Georgehifi thinks that this is not possible. I would love to see you two guys directly talk to each other. That would be interesting. Please gentlemen, you have the floor.
The consensus among most all “skeptics” that I recall including George has been that a better contact between fuse and holder can make a difference. I know that has ways been my view based on actual experience as I have related it replacing and resetting many fuses for customers years ago.
So if a fuse maker is asserting they are doing something special for a more robust contact more power to them but that is not the case as I recall. It’s usually other things. Also one must ask why is it that a fuse must cost so much just to make a good connection.
The consensus among most all “skeptics” that I recall including George has been that a better contact between fuse and holder can make a difference.
Yes as Ralph also explained, this is correct and gullible buyers of $$$ fuses think it's the change over from this from the standard cheap fuse that's given them the difference.
Also the standard fuse could have had many turn on cycles, and become crusty, hardened and carbonized. Left to right aging same fuse https://ibb.co/SQ9WJLn Right to left aging same fuse https://ibb.co/S6YXQGT
Synergistic Orange fuse was nothing short of unbelievable.
According to Atmasphere, the fuse makes a measurable difference. But Georgehifi thinks that this is not possible.
Don’t twist what he said into something that you want to believe, bad fuse holder contacts (not the fuse) "could" cause a "very slight voltage drop". Which will be much smaller than the "voltage drop" your fluctuating mains is doing every second anyway, and extremely doubtful you’d hear it, certainly not "was nothing short of unbelievable"
And in the case of any equipment with regulated power supplies it doesn’t even see it, that’s why it’s called "REGULATED"!!
So, bad contact with a standard fuse can account for a difference in the sound of the amp where a different fuse can't account for a difference in sound because it's just a fuse and it's not in a place where it can affect the sound.
So, bad contact with a standard fuse can account for a difference in the sound of the amp where a different fuse can't account for a difference in sound because it's just a fuse and it's not in a place where it can affect the sound.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
When you put it that way, yea.. Something to do with the magic stuff on the outside, don't wipe that stuff off.. SUPER conductive, I guess. I did hear a difference with the blue, in my Cary from my ACME with a paste I whipped up. Not the Orange though. My Acme with my goo was as good, maybe better (In my minds ear). New fuse, fresh goo.. 9.00 usd I'm frugal...
bad contact with a standard fuse can account for a difference in the sound
You "fusers" did I say anything about the sound??, I think NOT!! Like Ralph said it can be measured in an amp as a "very small" voltage drop across the fuse if it has a misaligned/dirty fuse holder, but your mains will be varying much worse than that. And in the case of line level equipment, it’s just a non event even as it’s REGULATED!
+1 ivan_nosnibor...It seems to be getting worse. Perhaps he should take his own advice from other threads and if he doesn't have anything positive to say then "move along". Hope he doesn't forget to delete his posts.
You "fusers" did I say anything about the sound??, I think NOT!! Like Ralph said it can be measured in an amp as a "very small" voltage drop across the fuse if it has a misaligned/dirty fuse holder, but your mains will be varying much worse than that. And in the case of line level equipment, it’s just a non event even as it’s REGULATED
The OP asked if something was done to the fuse because it does sound different. So, what relevance does your statement have to this discussion, other than to get up on your old and tired soapbox just to shake your fists and scream at the clouds?
But even this Ralph is null and void also, when the equipment has
regulated supplies, as many "directional fusers" claim differences in
fuse direction on their preamps and source equipment with regulated
supplies. As for them blowing for no reason, if indeed they do cryo
them, this "can" make the fuse element more fragile harder/stiffer and
suspect to de-rating it’s amperage and hence (blow earlier), a bit the
opposite to what happens to us the older we get.
This has been my experience too. Our MP-1 preamp is heavily regulated so that the drop out voltage (overhead) is around 100Volts on a 117VAC line- so it can sag quite a lot without any change in the preamp's performance. And while we can easily measure a voltage drop across the fuseholder, no amount of changing the fuse has any effect on the preamp at all (and for the same reason, its very immune to power cord changes too).
But if you have an unregulated power supply as seen in most amplifiers, the fuse is probably going to have some sort of audible effect.
I observed fuse contacts needed to be reset periodically with most Japanese made amps/receivers back in the late 1970’s. Unregulated power supplies I suppose? It was the first and easy thing to check when a customer brought a unit in with a sound problem before sending for service. The fuse itself was fine.
Not all circuits are created equal. Beware of any claims that a fuse always makes a difference especially when due diligence is not performed before resorting to spending a lot more money on a nebulous at-best product.
Also note there is a big difference in construction of a slow blow fuse versus fast blow. Slow blow usually has more to the filament to start. Slow-blow seems better but remember the two are not necessarily interchangeable case by case. Quality devices are designed to function properly with one or the other.
The OP asked if something was done to the fuse because it does sound different.
You’ve been told, it’s not the fuse, but the way it’s seated in the fuse holder that gives a very small voltage drop across the fuse (unlikely detectable)
To the OP adam8179 If it worries you just do a clean, up and push the fuse clamper together a bit to give it better holding tension. And use a new 10c fuse if it looks like these
Also the standard fuse could have had many turn on cycles, and become crusty, hardened and carbonized. Left to right aging same fuse https://ibb.co/SQ9WJLn Right to left aging same fuse https://ibb.co/S6YXQGT
And don’t be gullible and spend $160 on 10c re-badged fuses
You’ve been told, it’s not the fuse, but the way it’s seated in the fuse holder that gives a very small voltage drop across the fuse (unlikely detectable)
You’ve been told, many times, that the way a fuse holder is shaped doesn’t change over time unless you use a hammer to remove and insert a fuse. A single speck or mote of whatever will have little to no impact compared to using one of your standard fuses, which are made of the worse, almost non conductive witches brew of metals they can get their hands on (iron, zinc, tin, lead, etc) because they melt easier and not because they conduct.
I know of no one who’d use these metals in their PCs, IC, and SCs.
There is gear out there with decades of use that've never had their fuses replaced because they were properly designed. Pull those fuses out and they don't look anything like the ones you use in your silly slide shows.
I don't know (or care to know) what gear you use that has such an UNREGULATED inrush of current that it damages fuses in such short order, but, there you go.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
