@georgehifi
You really should talk to @atmasphere I know what he said. As for me, I am sorry, I cannot dismiss what I heard and am still hearing for what you believe based on theories. I choose reality. I wish I was like you, convinced beyond doubt that my ears and brain are lying to me but my imagination is not that fertile. When reality hit me as hard as the orange fuse, I have to tap out and admit that my theories are inaccurate or need further refinement. Sorry. |
You’ve been told, many times, that the way a fuse holder is shaped
doesn’t change over time unless you use a hammer to remove and insert a
fuse. The problem is many fuseholders are not exact, but fuses themselves even less so. I've seen many where the end contacts were not concentric with the glass bit, on crooked and the like. Combine that with a holder that is not made perfectly and its really easy to see how shifting the fuse around a bit to get a better fit can affect things. How I do it is to simply measure the voltage drop across the fuseholder, then rotate the fuse until I see the lowest drop. Easy enough for someone that isn't going to zap themselves (which you can do easily enough, so don't mess with the fuse if the circuit is live). |
To answer the posters question: Synergistic claim is they use millions of volts of electricity to charge the wire. I personally think that process weakens the value of the fuse. They do seem to blow quicker than regular fuses. Perhaps use a slightly higher value with the SR fuses.
ozzy |
Thanks for everybody's input on this topic! I always learn a lot from there forums (fora?).
Another complication: After installing the new fuse, I was hearing a very slight almost inaudible mechanical hum coming from the amp. (not coming from the speakers). I re-installed the fuse and it has gone away. My auditory memory is not sufficient to say that this accounts for the degraded sound I was hearing from having the SR fuse in there. From what I'm hearing from a lot of you guys, it seems how the fuse is sitting in the amp can have an effect and by re-installing (I also rotated it) I was getting better contacts? I guess the only way to be sure is to buy a new SR fuse and do an A/B. I guess I'd be willing to do a $160 experiment. With the amount of money I've poured into this hobby already that's chump change. Whether or not I'm a chump remains to be seen :)
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The problem is many fuseholders are not exact, but fuses themselves even less so. I've seen many where the end contacts were not concentric with the glass bit, on crooked and the like. Combine that with a holder that is not made perfectly and its really easy to see how shifting the fuse around a bit to get a better fit can affect things. How I do it is to simply measure the voltage drop across the fuseholder, then rotate the fuse until I see the lowest drop. Easy enough for someone that isn't going to zap themselves (which you can do easily enough, so don't mess with the fuse if the circuit is live). I understand and agree with your findings. But, fuses like Padis and HiFi Tuning seem to be made to a higher standard. Padis has no info etched on the sides of the end caps to ensure uniform contact and are as even a possible, which I've confirmed by rolling them on a flat surface and they don't waver. The same goes for Hi Fi Tuning except for the markings on the end caps. The fact that Mundorf worked with Hi Fi Tuning on their Supreme fuses (which I haven't tried as I love what the Silver Stars do) using their formula of 99% Silver and 1% Gold in the plating and the melt wire itself tells me there's more quality control going on with their fuses aside from others that seem to burn them in like a cable cooker would do to a cable and calling it Quantum Tunneling or something equally vexing. All the best, Nonoise |
If you buy into the 'Naysayer Gospel'; you're a, "chump" (and/or damned), if you're so deceived, as to think you can trust your ears and mental capacities, to determine whether your system sounds better, with a different fuse. Of course; a 30 Day, Money-Back, Satisfaction Guarantee, would seem to take the bite (and some excuses) out of an actual listening test's costs. HI-FI Tuning's fuses are my flavor. |
@adam8179
Synergistic offers a 100% money back warranty for 30 days. So have at it and enjoy the ride. You are doing the right thing. |
You really should talk to @atmasphere I know what he said He will never tell you that these >$160 dollar fuses "sound better". All he said there "can" be a slight voltage drop across the fuse bnecause of the fuse holder if the fuse is not seated properly. I say the mains itself fluctuates more than this voltage drop anyway. |
Quantum Tunneling Anytime I see the word 'quantum' used in conjunction with audio I turn and run the other way as fast as I can. I say the mains itself fluctuates more than this voltage drop anyway.
This is true, and is part of the reason that a system can sound better at certain times of the day. But its not just voltage- its also distortion of the AC sine wave on the line as transformers and rectifiers can react poorly to certain harmonics on the line, in particular the 5th (300Hz in the US). |
Synergistic Research........enough said, keep drinking the marketing BS / Kool-Aid they serve up !! |
It sounds like you went from a ceramic fuse to a glass one. I’m not one for the exotic audiophile fuses, but I did swap out the glass fuses in my B&K EX-442 Sonata for everyday, "standard" ceramic fuses just to see for myself if I could detect a difference. I did the same with my Hafler DH-220.
In fact I DID hear noticeable differences (in both amps, for the better, in each). Earth shaking? No. But it sounded as if the ceramic cleaned up the sound just a shade. I also replaced the stock glass fuses in my MMGs to no ill effect, until I replaced those ceramic fuses with sterling silver tubing. YMMV.
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I just googled "Inductive Quantum Coupling" in quotes, and the ONLY people using this exact phrase is SR. |
maybe it means that when the fuse blows, another fuse across the universe blows at the exact same moment in time |
FWIW, I found that installing SR Orange Fuses on my source components first provided the most notable improvement. As I worked my way down to the power amps, the sound continued to improve, but the biggest gains came from the source components. A power amp, after all, cannot replace musical information that is not fed to it.
Also, on the Orange, and possibly the Blue I had before them, there is a small drop of material on the outside of the tube that you should be careful not to accidentally scrape off. I expect this material has something to do with their UEF process. In all instances, the addition of the Orange Fuse was way more cost effective than attempting to upgrade the sound quality by buying a newer, more expensive component. |
I hope you tweeks are still touting directional fuses to let your alternating current go back and forth through your wires. i would hate to see you cry if you understood how electricity works.
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@danvignau It appears you didn't read the first page of this thread: As to why the fuse makes a difference, its easy to measure. Its the AC
voltage drop across the fuse. Because fuses have to heat up in order to
blow. as the amp is playing peaks, the voltage drop increases. The
contacts on the end of the fuse make a difference too- which has led to
the idea that fuses are directional (they aren't). Its just that
sometimes the fuse sits better in its holder if you turn it around
(although by simply rotating the fuse you can get the same effect, which
can be seen by a reduced voltage drop across the fuseholder).
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If a piece of equipment, let's say a CD player, has multiple fuses, let's say eight of them, how does the improvement go? Is it linear improvement depending on the number of expensive fuses used, or it is some other relationship? Is there a certain minimal number of fuses needed to improve the sound or it works from the first one? |
maybe it means that when the fuse blows, another fuse across the universe blows at the exact same moment in time That reminds me of the Steve Wright comedy bit where he found an on/off switch in his house that didn't seem to be connected to anything. He tried flipping it on and off many times, checking throughout his home to see what it was connected to. After a few more times turning it off and on, he got a call from someone in Iowa saying, "Stop doing that." All the best, Nonoise |
Again, for the umpteenth time, fuses do NOT affect sound in ANY way.
If you think otherwise, you are either delusional and/or very gullible to the power of suggestion from marketing folks.
If it was otherwise, dont you think manufacturers of audio equipment would already put a "boutique" fuse in there since their reputation is on the line and there is so much competition between them ? Would they try and save a few cents on a device they are selling for thousands of dollars, and jeopardize their "sonics" ?
If you do not believe the engineers, at least think about it.
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You must be new to all of this. For the umpteenth time, there are some manufacturers who install "boutique" fuses in their gear. Go and peruse the archives on this.
This is getting boring, having to go over the same topic, again and again.
To take the low road with the cheap shot that people are delusional and gullible shows there's no more argument left for you.
If you haven't tried it, then you simply don't know.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Exactly, boring going over the same pixie dust with no engineering basis.
And I have tried it, many times.
You are either from another planet, or have bionic ears. |
You're just another victim of expectation bias. Something taken for granted all these years turns out to be wrong and misunderstood, only to have the die hard cultists cling to their electricians bibles and chant that it cannot be so and refuse to even try it for themselves.
That's where progress stops and dies.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Only one proof for all this:
Double blind test.....
None exists.
All the best to u too.
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@cakyol
Do you believe that power cords make a difference? If your answer is yes then apply the same logic about the manufacturers and see how unconvincing you sound. If your answer is no, then...
By the way, science progresses only when people are willing to challenge the established knowledge of the era, whether it is flat earth or gravity. You are no smarter than anybody else, you are just more stubborn. You think your engineering theories are immutable and that we should suspend reality to fit them. It doesn’t work that way. I didn’t think a fuse could change the sound of my amp either, but yet it did. So no amount of theories can change that. It is what it is. Let’s agree to disagree if you cannot hear it in your system. |
Another snake oil subject. I do NOT believe power cords matter either, as long as they are within the required current specifications of the device.
Again, double blind test.
None exists.
Modern science requires verification, measurement & proof. None exists for power cords & fuses. What everyone has here is SUBJECTIVE evaluation.
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" i would hate to see you cry if you understood how electricity works." No one, "understands" exactly how, "electricity works". That’s why there’s so much Electrical THEORY. The number of Wiki-Scientists on these pages, attempting to win the IG-Nobel Prize in Pseudo-Physics, is always amusing. Whenever some educated someone actually does discover how exactly how electricity does function, they’ll be lauded by the scientific community, will have solved some of the disparities between Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, receive a Nobel and we’’ll hear about it. Newton’s THEORIES were largely superseded by Einstein’s, then came Feynman’s. For now; none of you can prove your statements (theories), regarding fuses, wires, or anything else, as regards our systems. The following are for your edification/education/correction (which is why most of you won’t bother to read the links): https://www.thegreatcoursesdaily.com/how-einstein-challenged-newtonian-physics/ then: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Forces/qed.html#:~:text=Quantum%20electrodynamics%2C%20co.... and: https://bigthink.com/philip-perry/an-updated-feynman-experiment-could-heal-the-rift-between-quantum-... Happy listening, even to those that refuse to follow the scientific process of observation and experimentation, in their own systems, with their own ears, FOR FREE (30 day return policy). |
cakyol...nonoise wrote: "If you haven't tried it, then you simply don't know." You replied: "And I have tried it, many times." I'm not taking sides, but I am curious. Exactly what have you tried many times? What experiments have you personally performed to answer the question of whether or not fuses make a difference? Were they double-blind tests? I am not attacking you, I am simply interested. |
@cakyol
Wow! Sometimes I envy you guys. Life must be very easy for you. All good amplifiers sound the same as long as they have similar specs, right? There are seven colors and no more. Pace, rhythm, soundstage, musicality, timing are all pigment of our imaginations. Your innocence is admirable. Too late for me though. I cannot go back. I heard it, I heard the music and I want it in all its glory and in all its simplicity. Keep safe. |
I have seen Mickey Mouse. I know he is real. |
Relax, players. Like I said, cakyol is NPC.
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I had to look up "NPC". Apparently it's a favorite insult of Trump supporters. From what I read it is directed towards someone who does not think for themself. How does this apply to cakyol? I don't agree with him on fuses because I heard a significant improvement when I changed out the original fuses and replaced them with SR Blues. Others have talked about the fact that the improvement might have been due to making better contact with the fuse holder. I can't say one way or the other. But there was an improvement that I had not expected. So while I disagree with cakyol on this, he seems to think for himself. Unless there is another definition for NPC that I am not aware of, and really not interested in, I don't see how it applies to cakyol. I would still like cakyol to answer my questions. |
Insult is the armor of an outsize ego |
Amazon is hosting jobs ( programs ) that run on Quantum computers..... simple stuff like Lagrange non linear optimization....
there is much we understand and probably more we don’t as yet
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@cal91Don’t get too upset about this thing. You tried it an formed an opinion based on what you experienced. Cakyol has to do the same, then he will know. In this field, there are a lot of things that don’t make sense but work. Just make sure you get a money back warranty because it’s easy for dishonest people to mislead the uninitiated. Some decades ago, I bought a $20 Monster power strip to protect my modest system from lightning and to my surprise, the bass from my cheap sub went from substandard to great. I couldn’t believe it. So I disconnected the strip and the bass went back to crap I knew then, that they were things that are unexplained but true. The last six feet couldn’t change the power characteristic they say. Yet, here I was. |
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@ cakyol, I think the idea of these threads is to contribute in some meaningful way, which is something you have no intention of doing. OK so you can't hear anything then why bother to comment.
Those trying to explain things with man's limited ability and basic science need to take cognisance of the fact that 'scientists' have proved that it is impossible for the bumblebee to fly! That some things can not be explained, does not mean they don't exist.
@hartf36, do I understand you correctly, you replaced a fuse with some stirling silver tubing? What did you hear?
I replaced fuses and mostly had positive results. My wife and I had some fun changing direction of stock fuses and noticed differences which lead to me trying better ones. When it came to my amp I found SR Blue best, and yes direction mattered (remember the bumblebee) but do not have an Orange to try out but do not think it will better the cheapest yet. Tried a solid copper rod, of unknown purity and this was a big jump up so I bypassed the fuse completely.
To be clear I am running my amp fuseless. The power amp is my DIY and I am comfortable with my build. I DO NOT recommend anybody try this, I mentioned it merely to illustrate the importance of removing a cheaply made device of dissimilar metals allowed to resonate and cause mischief.
Do not tell me I'm delusional, do not have a conniption and do not call the police.
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Lemon,
To be fair, that bumblebee business with scientists declaring it should be impossible for them to fly is a complete myth, like leprechauns and Eskimos..... |
I think the idea of these threads is to contribute in some meaningful way,
@lemonhaze, fusers have nothing meaningful to contribute, it’s all snake oil and voodoo, or at least expectation bias on first hearing from spending $>160+ on a re-badged 50c fuse, they need to hear something, even if it’s in their delusional heads. Here’s something meaningful since you asked Do some maintenance on you equipment, clean the end caps up on your 50c fuse or re-new it if aged and looks nothing like the left hand one and starting to look like the others https://ibb.co/SQ9WJLn or https://ibb.co/HtnGV2p
And clean it’s fuse holder with proper "electronic contact cleaner" squeeze the fuse holder contacts together a bit more for added tension. And their will be the same expectation bias listening result.
Cheers George |
@lemonhaze - Not to be contentious, but; Scientists couldn’t explain why Bumblebees could fly, with the Science (Physics) of the day. Once Fluid Dynamics hit the scene; they figured it out. I’d used that exact illustration, to explain the points we’re trying to make, here, years ago. There are too many things in this universe, that WORK, whether we can explain them, hear them, like them, believe in them, or not. ie:
From 09-22-2014 8:08am : Another way of looking at it: It was patently obvious(providing they could see) to the earliest Aeronautical Engineers, that Bumblebees could fly. A problem existed, however, in that early Science could not provide an explanation as to how or why, let alone hovering. Understanding was limited to the principles of lift(per Bernoulli). Not until scientists began the recent study of Fluid Dynamics, could they fathom how those small wings, regardless of how fast they might flap, could possibly get such a fat ass off the ground! There are a plethora of things audible to those that can hear and/or are willing to listen, explanations notwithstanding. Many things that we don’t know how to quantify or explain(YET). |
Then: there are those that will waste their keystrokes, on the endless, vapid preaching of the Naysayer Doctrine. Ya just gotta believe their faith-based religion, or suffer their ubiquitous diatribes. |
Try not to get into a war of words with Georgie. He's only here to add to the number of threads he can get closed down once they've become contentious. He's even boasted about it. He gets his kicks doing this sort of thing.
If you've noticed, he'll start out advising, and then when things don't go his way, he'll instantly turn on the people he pretended to help, insulting and denigrating them. It's his MO.
All the best,
Nonoise |
@spenav 100% agree.
@lemonhaze My amp manufacturer who has no tweaks in his home system didn't believe their is a difference either. We experimented with new and old standard fuses and the SR blues. He was shocked at the difference. He went home and installed 5 amp circuit breakers instead of his fuses. We compared amps with the blue fuses. Virtually identical (couldn't tell the difference). Like you, he designed the amp and if the NOS circuit breakers fail, he can rebuild them. Maybe its the improved contact area or the size of the filament (8 amp SR blue needed for 5 amp fuse spec).
I have a friend who found that the SR blue fuse sounded slightly worse than the standard fuse in his pre-amp. He doesn't know why. It could be equipment dependent. I will be trying his SR blue in the same backup pre-amp that I have and see if it makes a difference in my system.
I am the beta tester for a cable manufacturer. Cables sound different. I've tested 100s of cables. |
Maybe it is expectation bias in some cases, although as I stated before, I went into it thinking SR Bluest were snake oil but thought I'd give it a try. I was shocked that my old ears heard a positive difference. If my brain will create an improvement in sound that really isn't there, GOOD. I'll buy more snake oil. We're all trying to get more out of our systems. If you're imagining that the sound is better, but it really isn't, who cares? You're happy because you hear the difference, and that's all that matters. This is a situation in which being scientifically right is not as important as the perception. Plus, the economy is in shambles, we need people to spend money. |
If you've noticed, he'll start out advising, and then when things don't go his way, he'll instantly turn on the people he pretended to help, insulting and denigrating them. It's his MO.
You really are, a delusional fuser Like I said @lemonhaze
Here’s something meaningful since you asked Do some maintenance on you equipment, clean the end caps up on your 50c fuse or re-new it if aged and looks nothing like the left hand one and starting to look like the others https://ibb.co/SQ9WJLn or https://ibb.co/HtnGV2pAnd clean it’s fuse holder with proper "electronic contact cleaner" squeeze the fuse holder contacts together a bit more for added tension. And their will be the same expectation bias listening result. Cheers George
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No one should ever have to go and open their gear to get to and clean the contacts of a fuse holder. What rubbish.
All the best,
Nonoise |
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Yes, even the fat ones.
Thought scientifically impossible until the advent of the airline ticket... |
Always wondered if a thread could segue into flying Eskimos.
See how much science has advanced??!
We still have much to learn.... |
