rodman99999 ... there are those that will waste their keystrokes, on the endless, vapid preaching of the Naysayer Doctrine. Ya just gotta believe their faith-based religion ... That’s exactly what it is: A Faith-based belief system. By definition, Faith needs no proof or validation, so there is no way to reason with those guided solely by Faith. |
@cal91
I build amplifiers at home as a hobby. Over the years, I have built about 6 and given them to my friends. The ranged from 25 W/ch class A to 400W/channel class AB. I am an electrical & electronics engineer who graduated from UMIST (in the UK). I am currently a senior software (low level firmware) engineer working at Broadcom working on 5G and 11AX wireless. So, I know a little bit of how electronics works and how I can measure things. I also DO trust my ears. I have an older Cambridge Azur series amplifier on which I performed the fuse tests.
I connected a scope to the speaker outputs and used a 1khz sine wave input and I replaced the fuse with the following:
- straight silver wire 12 awg (no change in sound, no change on the scope)
- straight 99.9% pure OFC copper wire 10awg (no change in sound, no change on the scope)
- standard Romex wire used in the house installation (12 gauge 20 amp circuit) (no change in sound, no change on the scope).
Even with a complete short circuit of the fuse there was absolutely no change in the sound and/or signal.
Are you guys saying to me that "your pixie dust fuse" actually introduces some magic into the AC line that even a straight thru silver wire short circuit cannot ?
That is why I KNOW all this is bs.
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Actually, pixie dust is a golden glitter like substance that gives the recipient the ability to fly. Doesn’t work at all on fuses, but give some to a bumblebee or Eskimo....
Boy howdy!!!
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Oh and... cold fusion exists. |
Isn't that when two Eskimos get intimate? |
cakyol...Thank you for answering my questions. I have no doubt about your credentials. But, if I accept your assertion that fuses cannot possibly make a difference, what do I do with the improvement my brain perceived I got when I replaced the fuses? I'd like to keep it.
thecarpathian...The term "Eskimo" is considered by many who have traditionally been called this to be a derogatory term. In some dialects of the common language it means "one who eats raw meat". Just sayin. |
The last one I met introduced herself as "Eskimo". Very cool girl, I must admit. |
"...what do I do with the improvement my brain perceived I got when I replaced the fuses? I'd like to keep it." Then keep it. All three of them. |
"Isn't that when two Eskimos get intimate?" What is a divorce called then? Cold fission? |
I believe it is!
It happens when the couple just aren’t Inuit.
Sorry. |
cal,
Yes the word has been considered derogatory for quite some time, but it should not be.
It has been put forward that Eskimo is derived from the French word 'esquimaux'
Which means "one who nets snowshoes".
Which is actually a compliment given the skill involved.
Jury is still out on how leprechauns feel....
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@cal91
if you have noticed so much improvement in your sound then obviously you should keep your fuses.
We will just have to respectfully disagree that the effects are not universal but very personal, and that standard measurements do not show and explain the perceived difference.
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Ah, civility! Kudos.
Civility is not about dousing strongly held views.
It's about making sure that people are willing to respect others perspectives.
And Eskimos. |
@cakyol- With all due respect (in all earnest), regarding all that electronics experience, education, EE Degree, etc: KUDOS for your dedication to your profession. But: is the part where WE are supposed to trust your ears, in the New or Old Testaments, of the Naysayer’s Doctrine? Help thou, my unbelief! |
Thecarpathian,
Never imagined I’d be thinking about flying bumblebees & fat Eskimo’s today. Those are some of the funniest posts I’ve ever read on this site!
Thank You |
Silver, copper ,gold top conductors in synergistic nope brass
with a treatment $160 no thanks I had theirs in my other it was not as pure as the silver gold Hifi tuning , at half the price ,it just matters where it goes ,luckily my new dac uses a thermistor
no need for a fuse which is better still. |
boxer12,
I appreciate that very much.
I think right now we all need a little less contention and a little more silly.
Also, I know next to nothing about audio, so silly is pretty much all I've got! |
Not often that one hears or reads a witty, grammatically correct, correctly spelled usage of the word, "segue", either! At least; not in Indiana. |
@rodman99999
It is not just my ears. It is also my measurements and the engineering norms.
I guess you believe your ears and so do I. I also believe my measurements and all the engineering knowledge that I have accumulated over the years.
As I said, we will have to respectfully disagree and that is the end of that.
At the end of the day, it is your money, your purchase, you can do whatever you want.
Cheers |
But: is the part where WE are supposed to trust your ears
You know the old bible saying, "If your eyes deceive you then pluck them out" Same goes for "fusers" ears. |
This is turning out to be one of the better threads with some humour to defuse things a little.
@thecarpathian, I am afraid I have to strongly disagree with you. I live in rural Ireland and leprechauns are real and Eskimos are cool.
@rodman99999 re bumblebees. I hear you. I mentioned the little buzzers as a simple way of putting across the reliance on science.
An Irish blonde pushes her Ford into a petrol station. She tells the mechanic it died.
After he works on it for a few minutes, it is idling smoothly.
She says, "What's the story?"
He replies, "Just crap in the carburetor"
She asks, "How often do I have to do that?"
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cakyol...If everyone reads your last post directed to me, it should go a long way to lowering the temperature on this thread. Thanks |
AMEN! "At the end of the day"; the only thing that matters, as regards whatever we’ve done with (or to) our systems, is satisfying our own ears. It’s just the incessant dogmatism and, "trust me" mantra, of the Naysayer Doctrine preachers, that’s become so tedious. Only my opinion, of course. Happy listening!
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The truth shall set you free. I was listening to Coletrane' "My Favorite Things" last night and was enjoying the expanded sound stage and sharper imaging since I put in the SR fuses. It sounded like Coletrane was in the room with me. Roy Haynes' solo on drums was crisp and dynamic. And then I thought about cakyol's assertion that it's all in my head, so I thought I'd test it. I repeated to myself over and over; "It isn't real, it isn't real." But it sounded real. I kept at it for at least 15 minutes and then it happened. The instruments started moving closer together and no longer went as far past the speakers. Coletrane seemed to fade a little further back and Haynes lost a little of the sharpness and clout. It still sounded good, but it seemed to lose a little. What it lost, of course, wasn't real, so I knew I should appreciate that I am no longer delusional. Thank you cakyol for opening my eyes and helping me to see the light. The dream is over. |
The truth will set you free, but- obfuscation will trip you up! Old rhyme: A centipede was happy – quite! Until a toad said, in fun, "Pray, which leg comes after which?" Which threw her mind in such a pitch, she laid bewildered in the ditch, considering how to run. Analysis Paralysis: https://bsci21.org/9-tips-to-avoid-paralysis-by-analysis/ Overthinking simple and FREE (30 day trial) experiments, can result in ears deprived of enhanced musical presentations. |
"I was listening to Coletrane’ "My Favorite Things" last night and was enjoying the expanded sound stage and sharper imaging since I put in the SR fuses."
If we continue this way, soon a new fuse will make a 1960 recording into genuine surround sound. |
^^^^^^^^^^ = argumentum ad absurdum (proud of yourself?)
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cal91, "The instruments started moving closer together and no longer went as far past the speakers. Coletrane seemed to fade a little further back and Haynes lost a little of the sharpness and clout." It seems that you have mono version. |
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if a piece of equipment, let's say a CD player, has multiple fuses, let's say eight of them, how does the improvement go? The voltage drop across the fuse is the issue. I seriously doubt you would be able to measure or hear anything in a CDP, since many of them employ regulators in the various power supplies, and also since the voltage drop is very slight anyway. I connected a scope to the speaker outputs and used a 1khz sine wave input and I replaced the fuse with the following:
- straight silver wire 12 awg (no change in sound, no change on the scope)
- straight 99.9% pure OFC copper wire 10awg (no change in sound, no change on the scope)
- standard Romex wire used in the house installation (12 gauge 20 amp circuit) (no change in sound, no change on the scope).
Even with a complete short circuit of the fuse there was absolutely no change in the sound and/or signal.
I am not arguing the results of your experiment. However there are some uncontrolled variables. In the measurements I've made, they only seem to show up with equipment that actually draws enough power that you can measure a voltage drop across the fuseholder. You did not mention what amp you used, but I suspect it does not draw much power. The less power drawn the less measurable the effect of the fuse is and likely the less audible. The areas I see it making a difference are total power output. You'll need a variac to do this, since as the amp makes more power it will make a bigger voltage drop. You want to be able to change the input AC voltage to compensate for that so you can see what the amp does if 120V is present at the output of the fuse as opposed to when the voltage is at the input to the fuse. So you have to increase power to clipping, then measure the voltage on the output side of the fuse, readjust the variac, then readjust for clipping and so on. Also measure the output impedance and distortion. Don't bother if the amp only makes 5 watts- the effects will be too diminished. Using this technique I've seen how a power cord can rob an amp of nearly 40 watts- slightly less than 1/3rd its total power. But that amp has a significant filament circuit; if you are trying to this with a 20 watt solid state amp you're going to have difficulties measuring anything! |
In the measurements I’ve made, they only seem to show up with equipment that actually draws enough power that you can measure a voltage drop across the fuseholder. This is "maybe" a correct statement, but lets get the rest of it right, and may only apply to non regulated equipment. What should be added is that it would be "impossible to hear" the difference. As the mains fluctuates much more every second, your measuring the same ***** thing, a minute voltage drop across the fuse or larger voltage drop in the mains every second!!! It’s all fuser snake oil voodoo **, don’t try to make it anything else and give fusers even more fodder for the shilling of these >$160 fuses Cheers George |
but lets get the rest of it right, and may only apply to non regulated equipment. Yes- I've been careful to mention this at least twice earlier. It’s all fuser snake oil voodoo, don’t try to make it anything else and
give fusers even more fodder to twist around in their snake oil heads.
Using a generality like this is problematic- its better to say that *most* of its snake oil... the problem is that the effects are measurable. But there is also the Veblen Effect- that the fuse must make a difference because it cost so much (which is a subset of 'expectation bias'). |
So, you would consider an expensive aftermarket fuse a Veblen Good as opposed to a Giffen Good given that an argument could be made that they are nothing more than rebranded cheap fuses?
I personally have no opinion either way as to their efficacy as I have never used one. |
Sep 22, 2006 · Apparently aftermarket fuse manufacturers haven't been paying much mind to the angst and whining of the naysayers as the fuse debate drags on into its tenth year.
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Happy 24th birthday!
Glad to see all this zany fuse business has finally been settled!
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So, you would consider an expensive aftermarket fuse a Veblen Good as opposed to a Giffen Good They might be both! Certainly its nothing I worry about. |
The Naysayer Doctrine (a faith-based religion) clearly has it’s roots deeply embedded in, "measurements" and, "engineering experience". I’d be interested in hearing what (if any) measurements have been taken and/or what experiments have been conducted, by the Naysayer Evangelists, or their Popes, that aren’t based on an Engineering/Physics understanding of electricity/electromagnetism from the 19th Century (ie: Ohm, Maxwell, Faraday, etc). The same cult was taking shots at Nikola Tesla, back in his day! https://nextexx.com/2020/06/18/why-do-scientists-hate-tesla/ He still managed to take the world, kicking and screaming into the 20th Century, with his inventions. A good read: https://www.amazon.com/Man-Who-Invented-Twentieth-Century/dp/148122980X |
I just read that!
I enjoyed reading about his most prolific period when he invented
wood, the light saber, and Spaghetti-o’s...
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Some component manufacturers will void your warranty if you use a non-stock fuse in their gear. I was considering a fuse upgrade for my LFD amp until I learned that they void the warranty if you do it. Not sure if it's that big of a deal but something to consider. |
@atmasphere I suspect that based on what I read concerning the EAR 864 preamp, that it has an unregulated power supply. The result of replacing a Bussman glass fuse with an SR Blue fuse was fundamental and sensational. I was ready to dump this 17 year old back-up pre-amp which sounded like it had no depth, forward sounding and weird brightness with many but not all recordings turned out to be totally the fault of the cheap fuse. I had it plugged into high end power cable, Stillpoint Ultra SS footers, Mullard 4004 & RCA cleartop 12AU7. The SR Blue fuse transformed it into a rival for the EAR 912 (I haven't done the shoot out yet). The phono is a perfect match for the Dynavector 20X2 L and the line stage made digital recordings sound analog. This is going through an EAR 890 amp with an SR purple fuse (even with the 890's glass fuse, it sounded very analog-like).
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@ cakyol
I am curious. What is it, you think, a blind test demonstrates?
I am asking because most people are wrong about this.
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Well I won’t touch the fuse debate, although I do use HiFi Tuning fuses and some other cheaper Chinese ones, just for the hell of it.
Here however is my solution to lightening and those fast on and off brown outs we get here in Florida, the lightening capital.
A full house surge protector installed by the power company in the meter. Yes there is a monthly fee, but consider it a music subscription.
All systems plugged into a BrickWall surge protector, they also reduced EMI a lot.
Then after all this, I found that the quick off and on brown outs were messing with the microprocessors in my units, like the preamp and processor.
So I found this little bugger that solved that problem, a portable GFI that shuts everything off once it looses power. It trips so fast nothing gets back through.I know you all may think it’s not audiophile quality, but I have never had any audiophile grade outlet with a tighter grip. The first time I tried to remove the plug from it, I thought it was locked in there somehow.
It works great and I hear no negative effects. It’s made by Yellow Jacket,I got it off Amazon, there is a yellow one and a black which I have. I would post a picture but that seems too difficult on this site.It’s just one more layer of protection that makes me feel comfortable leaving the house with all my expensive stuff plugged in knowing that the only thing to worry about is a direct lightning hit, which nothing can save you from.
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