What is the “World’s Best Cartridge”?

@mikelavigne 

I don't post often... but I do enjoy reading your posts, hearing about your thoughts, insights, and experiences with all kinds of different equipment, systems, etc.

I value your presence here as many others do as well.

Please don't leave us.... otherwise, what is the point of us staying here too.

Wishing you all the very best!

Don

Dear @mikelavigne : Where really started this " unfortunated " hot discussion?

 

For me started when you share your opinion /first hand experiences with the Dava cartridge :

 

" DaVa is electric! alive! nothing lean, or or clinical. projects lots of energy. harmonically rich timbre and textures. robust bass. "

Next to your post @mijostyn posted:

 

" Another point that I would like to make is that you have to be very suspicious of any component that stands out sonically in dramatic fashion. It is likely to be very colored, not realistic but surrealistic. "

 

from there the gentleman that post that you can click the " ignore " button posted:

 

" adding the wires needed to power the field coil. They would have to stiffen up the arm since they would have to travel past/thru its bearings. That would introduce a variable ...."

 

after that I posted ( ( other that my cantilever-less mistake posts. ) :

 

" All what surrounds the DaVa including your personal experienced opinion makes me to think for sure ( even that I did not listen to it. ) that that cartridge has to many " errors " around .

Come on Mike, I can’t find out any where the basic cartridge specs. Have you? could you share with all of us? "

followed by:

 

" and ask Darius for the cartridge specs. All in these forum and in all internet forums want to know about. So and as always your help and advise is welcomed for the audio community every where. "

 

followed by:

 

" I was reading word by word of my posts referenced to you and in no one I posted nothing against or qquestioning you what you like it because it’s a personal opinion your opinion of what YOU like and no one can question it.

Even my first post was a " congratulations " for the two new cartridges for the OP and even that I questioned rhe DaVa cartridge and explained the why’s ( btw, a DaVa owner posted that the SS power supply is better and that opinion goes against your friend that said tubes ps is better. ) about I gave its welcome to our high end community. I’m still looking else where for its specs with no luck yet. It’s weird that even Agoners in this thread not cared about especially with a " new kid of the ... ".

 

 

then you posted ( btw, in between all these important posts were the digital vs analog endless discussion and R2R too. ) :

 

" i listen to Dizzy Gillespie’s Big 4 lp pressing on the DaVa Reference cartridge. then listen to a digital transfer.

with the Lp Dizzy’s trumpet hits 95 watt peaks on my dart 468 monoblocks. at the same SPL’s the digital hits 45 watt peaks. the DaVa also sounds more real and life like....but that is subjective, the peak watts are an objective measurement of signal energy.

i can cite many similar occurrences.

btw; the DaVa also surpasses other cartridges too, but not nearly by as much. just more energy.

i love digital. but it cannot do some things analog can do. it smears peaks "

 

I gave you this answer:

 

" That’s can confirm what I said about " higher distortions " during LP tracking. That signal energy with the cartridge came with way higher distortions NOT musical information and distortons counts for those higher SPL high peacks. Yes, you love those distortions ( even you posted before an in ironic or not so ironic way that " like the distortions ". I could add that any one of us like some kind of distortions because nothing is perfect and we love our each ones choosed trade-offs. ).

From there you conclude that digital " smears peacks " and truly your conclusion makes no sense . "

 

Why I posted " makes no sense " : because had not a true foundation but only a cartridge design ERRORS.

 

your post and mine came before Darius disclosed the specs that confirm those distortions but not exactly by cartridge tracking but for even a more severe real fact: a 6db cartridge FR deviation..

 

After all those in my research I found out the facts you posted in wbf and that any one can read.

The facts that you posted showed your preference for that " long road to San Francisco " with all those " cables/joints between the tonearm output through the line level input in the Dartzeel.

I posted that that " long road..." is the wrong road/path for the cartridge signal and gave you all the evidence and true facts why the better cartridge path is a direct one cable from the tonearm output to the phonolinepreamp Dartzeel input. In this sole issue I did not question you why you prefer the " long road " to the direct signal path and I add that at least ( as with the Dava cartridge ) ask for the that tube inverse RIAA eq. deviaiton alond the measures that support the spec and the noise level of that unit and I’m sure that even today you don’t have yet in hand those information as no one other owners of the same unit: this is not your fault and I did not blame you for that but a deep critic to the manufactures irresponsability about: same as Darius and LFD cables manufacturer.

What of all those information posted here is disrespectful with you or what you like?

The heavy and hot disagreement belongs to a different common sense level between you and me: long road vs short path. That’s it and of course Dava high deviation.

As any discussion here there is no winner or beated gentleman but all of us are winners because some of us confirmed through the discussion each one experiences and others because learned about unknow audio products or audio subjects. Don’t you think?

R.

 

Btw, I never listened the Dava or those SUTs or that tube RIAA eq. but I do listened the Dartzeel and and the Evolution middle line speaker that shares the same ribbon and ceramic drivers  that your top of the line model.

 

 

@frogman , The problem with your statement is that there are millions of music lovers who "honor" the music by listening to it on systems that many of us would find mediocre. Music is no less valuable to them than it is to any of us. We chose to engage ourselves in the additional hobby of system building. Are we honoring the music to a greater extent by building the better sounding systems than someone who can not afford the expense?  

@mikelavigne , Those who know me well know that I place minimal weight on what anybody says anything sounds like. The reason I do this is not to minimize someone's opinion or to critique their listening ability. It is because I have no framework for evaluating what it is they are trying to convey. I have no idea what anybody else is listening to and any comment on sound quality has to be taken in conjunction with what that person is use to listening to. The quality of a person's equipment is no indicator either. 

@mijostyn Indeed. All good. I find the Deccas sing at 1.65 grams, tail slightly down. When we were in our teens, we played rock and roll on an ancient Garrard with a ceramic cartridge which did in fact track wonderfully at 10 grams. The non-magnetic penny providing the necessary mass.

@rauliruegas

sorry, but considering my feelings, and your apparent concern that i am not happy, your post above is just more of the same negative ranting.

you continue to try to demonstrate that my opinions are flawed.

From there you conclude that digital " smears peacks " and truly your conclusion makes no sense . "

 

my gear is flawed.

Why I posted " makes no sense " : because had not a true foundation but only a cartridge design ERRORS.

my processes are flawed.

The facts that you posted showed your preference for that " long road to San Francisco " with all those " cables/joints between the tonearm output through the line level input in the Dartzeel.

here and there you try to show respect, but then go and step on me again. you are free to do this, of course. but for me, i’m done with all of it.

i do respect @mijostyn for his honesty about not caring a whit about anyone’s listening opinions. and honestly don’t care to be in a forum with him either. nothing personal of course. but i prefer to post with people i would enjoy listening with, and that post as if we are together face to face. it’s just how i am. and back it up by inviting anyone to come and listen with me.....anytime. if you were here in my room would you go on and on like your posting? would anyone?🙄

i would hope not.

Come back Mike. Don't surrender to the jerks. Jerks should lose not win. Hope to see you on another thread. 

@mikelavigne You are one of few who have invested substantial sums into your equipment.

It would be easy if to dislike your commentary on your experiences, if you were to attach yourself and follow certain ways of expressing yourself, as seen used by the minority of contributors, who seemingly are in collusion, in their encircling a member and bombarding them with their superfluous confrontations.

Fortunately, you have stood your own corner and been faithful to your decisions, and made it known how these are beneficial to yourself, and in certain cases have been the correct choice made for yourself.

There is nothing left for you to prove, your budget, your system, your listening environment, your reaction to the stimulus created. The intrusion of others into this, especially informing you of being wrong choices, is insulting, and I can see your affront and resulting action to depart. 

Your reporting on your experiences encountered are very welcome.

  

I second that. There's good information on this forum, but it is often hidden behind a smokescreen of verbiage from a prolix few. I started here in 2007, but was unable re-activate my old account. Things haven't changed much.

I agree with @pindac. I enjoy reading Mike’s posts, thoughts and invaluable insights. He has helped me tremendously in making good decisions over the years.

I hope we can rise above the typical belittling that goes on here by certain members and continue to share our experiences and enjoy our beautiful hobby.

One fact about the Decca/London pickups with which I’m sure @noromance agrees with me is that they are more critical of the tonearm onto which they are mounted than are just about all other designs. No cantilever, no mechanical damping, a very high level of mechanical energy transferred into the arm tube and bearings, models other than the Reference and Jubilee having a somewhat resonant body---which may be ameliorated by having the stock plastic mounting bracket replaced with the optional Decapod top plate. And the design suffers from a high frequency resonance, mitigated by electrical damping (varying amounts of capacitance and resistance so as to create a "tank circuit". You can read all about it in the writings of Decca enthusiast/expert Harvey Rosenberg of New York Audio Labs).

Once optimized in an appropriate and suitable arm, and amplified with an appropriate RIAA phono amp which can handle the pickups 5mv output (!), the Decca/London’s have an extremely alive, startlingly dynamic, somewhat "forward" (but also reproducing the depth in recordings as do few others) "robust" sound, producing music with great immediacy and presence. The "horn loudspeaker" of cartridges, if you will. Not for sissies ;-) .

Bdp, I owned a Decca London back in the 90s and your synopsis is a good one. Especially comparing it at its best to a horn loudspeaker.

back it up by inviting anyone to come and listen with me.....anytime. if you were here in my room would you go on and on like your posting? would anyone?🙄

I've been to Mike's.  He is a gentleman and very gracious and generous.  In talking with him, it's clear that he's humble and while he has a great deal of knowledge, he's also a continuous learner.  There isn't a hint of braggadocio or ego, just a love for music. 

As far as his system goes, all I can say is wow!  It's far and away the best I've heard.  He's put the work into his room and has taken a system approach that has resulted in something magical. 

This forum is following the pattern of others I've seen, where over time the experienced and knowledgeable members leave because of a few know-it-all egotistical posters.  After a while, most of the posters that are left are inexperienced members asking basic questions and then the next level of experienced members start leaving and after a while, the forum shrinks and becomes relatively inactive. After some time, what you end up with for the most part is the blind leading the blind.

There's a level of anonymity and insulation that the internet provides.  Some of you might behave in person exactly like you do on the internet, but in real life you wouldn't be invited back to someone's home or to hang out with a group of friends.

I've learned a lot from this forum and others and look for every opportunity to pay it back.  In that spirit, I try to limit my comments and opinions to things that I have actual experience with either in my system or that I've heard in a friend's system.  I don't want to be part of the "noise".

@noromance 😁😁😁

@mikelavigne , Listening to music together and sharing the experience is a totally different proposition then trying to describe what something sounds like at a 2000 mile distance. In listening together you now have the framework to interpret what that individual is trying to tell you. Now their opinion has meaning.. It is a shame that we are unable to do more shared listening. Perhaps we should form regional groups that get together once or twice a year giving group opinions on this that and the other. Since we are both LZ fans I'm sure we could loosen a few fillings. That has to be the box set of all time. But then there is that Bill Evans Riverside box..... 

@big_greg " I try to limit my comments and opinions to things that I have actual experience with either in my system or that I’ve heard in a friend’s system. I don’t want to be part of the "noise", ".

This is solely my intent, it is also why I am very happy to meet with others, or travel to meet with others, venues such as in my home, their homes, or a pre-arranged meeting place, where a group are to attend to share in the available experiences from lined up demonstrations.

It is all done under one umbrella, which is to be a ’sociable participant’ within a small group of like-minded enthusiasts. No different to your visit to Mike’s and others you may have choose to spend time with. Where the outcome is usually always that advantages are recognised, amounting to great value. The overall outcome of the encounter, being indelible and very much worthwhile sharing with others.

By increasing my experiences with fellow enthusiasts, is indirectly a route to learn, this extends to learn much about how others are creating their own systems in their own environments.

I have on numerous occasions been left with a curve ball, from one’s approach, something new to me, be it a Brand or a DIY Build or ancillary and have been supplied ’if looking to be affordable’, another item of interest/curiosity added to the ’must’ try out on my system list.

To sense within a Thread, that a communication is present from an individual that is locked away in their own space, Smashing Down on the Keyboard, as an alienated individual. Attempting with a ’futility’ to convince an individual what is right and wrong in their choice, is from my perspective a repellent.

It is very difficult to consider accepting a content from a contributor, who is seemingly without any structured interactions with like-minded kin. A contributor that produces such an impression from my observation, is not a source of supply of information where I find myself content in the information that is being offered, there is not anything being made available that suggests creativity or offers any stimulus, it is quite the opposite.

I am on the side of the individuals who are helping this interest grow and bring into the fold new members who are to participate for the long haul and make discoveries that are very attractive to be maintained in similar ways to the one’s we all have behind and in yet to be encountered. It is not the easiest of tasks to convince somebody with a curiosity/interest in HiFi, that to invest in a System with a Vinyl LP source is a practice worth pursuing.

It is commonly seen through the content chosen to be added to a Thread, that it is very very easy to send these much-wanted visitors away for good.

@mikelavigne : " attacking the listening opinion credibility, "

 

Look, my opinion about is that CREDIBILITY can’t be attacked by any one .

Credibility of each one of us in this forum or other internet audio forums is a RESULT of each one of us knowledge/skills/first hand experiences levels.

The credibility/that knoledge levels of any one of us is different because our knowledge levels on specific audio issues could be good one but in many others audio issues is to low knowledge levels. No one knows everything about every audio whole subjects.

So, we are the ones that could " attack " our self when expose our knoledge level in a specific issue where we are not very good and all the time we are exposing that credibility through any single post we write where we show our knowledge level.

Every day is a learning one . As we posted the more our self credibility is too more exposed or in " danger ".

 

Always are several audiophiles that in some specific MUSIC/audio areas are and have way higher knowledge levels that you or me and to take advantage of their knowledge and skills we have to have an unbiased attitude with a wide open mind.

In certain and specific audio subjects my knowledge levels improved thank’s to read the posts of those better knowledge audiophiles even if as some of them in this forum post things like: " that’s totally false " or " you are way wrong ": well I accepted that if they gave me the explanation about and you know what: i learned and improve that way my knowledge level in that specific issues.

I already told you that in any discussion and depending of each one attitude the game is: win to win . In this " game " there is no place to feelings that I was defeated by.... or they are attacking me......To avoid that we can have our self blog, no I don't do it that way because I like to learn.

That’s my overall way of thinking, problem could be that I’m not polite mainly for my bad english where the words meaning to me are different to other gentlemans meaning.

What’s true in that " no polite " is that if my common sense and knowledge tells me that something is " black " I just can’t post that’s is " grey " or " brown ".

I try not post in threads where in the audio subjects my knowledge levels are to low or totally new for me, so I learn just reading to or I make several questions about till I understand the whole subject. I win with this kind of " actions ".

I don't care about my credibility because this human been characteristic depends only of me.

R.

@rauliruegas

look at that. you wrote a whole post addressed to me without once saying my opinions, gear or process is flawed. so it is possible.

i have no problem with anyone’s writing skills and respect that English is your second language. that is never an issue for me. your style is never disrespectful. but you constantly finding flaws in my activities is not something i can be around. i don’t claim to be right all the time, and some level of critique is fine. but too much is too much. so it’s up to you how you deal with that.

when you claim "absolute" truths, whether about tubes or digital, or anything, it’s going to cause problems. so know that those type approaches are polarizing and maybe try to avoid them. you cite these absolutes in your critiques of others and it’s very irritating. just think about softening your perspectives a bit and not ’preach’ about them. this idea is one thing that bothers me about your responses to me. while you do this quite a bit, you are not the only one.

i’m not a moderator, or any higher level authority about posting. only that i do care about posts pointed toward me, and so have opinions about those.

enough said.

The more I listen to the MSL Platinum Signature the more I am impressed by it and the Seta L it is attached to. This is the quietest cartridge I have ever owned. Records that I thought were on the noisy side are now reasonably quiet. Quiet records are as close to silent as a record can get....I think. Actually I can measure it. The digital metering on the Lynx Hilo is accurate to within 1 dB. I'll get back on that.  Bass and drums have a solidity usually reserved for Hi Res digital. The space between the instruments is well defined. Some people call this "air." Nothing sounds stressed. Tracking has been perfect.  I think I can say this is certainly the best cartridge I have ever owned 

Sorry, I need to correct my senility-infused confusion. Should read "tail slightly up." Much better highs and leading edge snap.

I find the Deccas sing at 1.65 grams, tail slightly down.

@mijostyn I know in a previous post you said you had not heard the Gold but curious if anyone else in this thread have listened to the MSL Gold Sig? How does it compare to the Platinum Sig? I’ve had the pleasure of hearing the Gold Sig several times now, for lengthy listens and can hear how quiet it is compared to the other cartridges my dealer has had over the years plus the control and ease of how it plays is beyond anything I’ve ever experienced. So would anyone know of similar or different the Gold is compared to the Platinum?

@noromance

Sorry, I need to correct my senility-infused confusion. Should read "tail slightly up." Much better highs and leading edge snap.

I’m delighted with my Reference (or Jubilee) with the rear end very slightly down, as judged by the line along an SME tonearm. Both used at 2g VTF. Maybe I can’t hear the missing highs any more.

(So nice, by the way, to get back to actual audio issues instead of personality clashes!)

@dogberry The corollary is that perhaps I prefer it tail up to compensate for my declining perception of highs! Try your cartridges at 1.65. IIRC, John Wright told me tracking lies between 1.6 and 2.0 grms—so you're safe. More air, detail, and speed without sacrificing bass.

Maybe I can’t hear the missing highs any more

Will do. Maybe it will last a bit longer with the lower VTF.

Edit: gone from 1.9g down to 1.67g according to my scale. We'll see.

It's utterly unfair to people floundering around wondering what's best when they can't hear this!

Ah. After three or four days with the Grado Statement 3 on one table, I now have gone back for one album on the other table, with a London Reference (I don't know the reduced VTF made a massive difference) on it. Supertramp's Indelibly Stamped. For Hyperion owners, "..I'll go get a cactus of my own" as it says on track one of side two. There's just no comparison.

It is official for me now, the luxury of HiFi at hand, is now removed, as a result of nearly all the collection of ingredients being crated for Storage.

LP's, CD's, Cables, Valves and Ancillaries, along with boxes of buried parts are rediscovered, to be promptly buried once more, are now Packed.

Next will be the Source Devices, the Vinyl equipment requires a very delicate hand and thoughtful methods for the storage. I have also put a few Tonearms out for long term loan, to assist with some of the upcoming comparisons being arranged.

The Cart's and DAC will be kept at hand, to be used in future comparisons, and I believe a few Bake-offs are to be arranged prior to the Xmas, with CDP's, CDT > DAC's and I believe a Steamer > DAC, when undertaken at one home.

These usually are carried out on a few different systems, as past experiences show, there are surprises to be found, Synergy is useful description and when believed to be present, is a wonderful encounter.

Not always does a most impressive item of equipment on one system, deliver to the same degree of impression on another, on the odd occasion may have even been the least impressive.    

How I am going to miss Trying out a new purchased music in the comfort of home and How will the Dark Nights of Winter be without a few periods set aside for replays and comparison sessions.

I will be 'Sleeping on the Sofa' in relation to HiFi and very dependent on my invites to HiFi Group activities. 

Picking up on the activities of others with their equipment experiences, will at least allow myself a little continued reading and as always there will be follow up investigation if the content captures my interest.

Dear @mijostyn  : I never had the opportunity to listen your MSL cartridge but I owned two of what I think is around best best cartridges design that Matshudira made, I'm refering to the Luxman  LMC-1 and the Supex SDX-1100R.

Both are very low output: 0.1mv for the Lux and 0.2mv for the Sup and in both obviously that with that output levels the internal impedance in the order of 1.5ohms-3ohm.

The stylus shape were hiper-ellipthical and that today not line contact- Sup with ruby cantilever and I can't remmeber the one in the Lux.

Both cartridges tracking very well and with low weigth for a LOMC cartridges: 5grs.-6grs respectively.

Very good experiences with and I regret to sold the Luxman.

 

R.

Darius shoves his DAVA cartridges only on fb.

You can find data specification

and FR Bruel &Kjaer

mesurements of his carts there.

You csn see that cartridge FR is very flat,

1-3 db unlinearity in 16-20 khz region.

 

 

 

 

 

 

@rauliruegas , The Luxman was a good cartridge. Since then Yoshio Matsudaira developed a new core for the armature that gives him higher output ( 0.5 mV) with one layer of wire keeping the impedance very low and the moving mass very low. He started using this in the Air Tight cartridges the Opus 1 being the grand daddy of them all. I think the Platinum Reference is Yoshio's version of the Opus One. The stylus he is using is unique in my experience. The very tip instead of coming to a point is radiused and beveled on both sides, very different from the replicant 100 or Gyger S styluses. It is much more forgiving in set up. The azimuth could be off a few degrees and tracking ability would be unchanged. Cross talk would still worsen but most people would not notice that. The cartridge is really very small and beautifully made. All the angles are dead on. All you need is a good protractor and a Wally Referance and you can get it perfect in just a few minutes, no microscope required. Sonically nothing stands out at first. After a few records I became aware that I was getting better bass definition. The next characteristic that became obvious after a few more records was an easy going stress less demeanor. Not sibilance at all, not a sharp edge anywhere unless called for. It is very hard not to like this cartridge.     

   

@mijostyn  : Year ago I listened in an audio friend the Opus and in those times was the top of the line AT model and very good performer and competitive with all top cartridges out there.

As you said your MSL could be the MSL version of the Opus. At least with a new cantilever build material: boron because the Opus came with :

" semi-line contact stylus with a 0.1mm square tip, an ultra-hard duralmin cantilever "

Good that the cartridge is fulfilling your main targets.

 

T.

your MSL could be the MSL version of the Opus

No, MSL is the designer & manufacturer. The best from that designer is the top MSL - currently the Platinum Signature.

The Air Tight Opus and its derivatives are designed and built by MSL and voiced to AT's requirements - they are trickle down products.

Why get the apprentice when you can have the master.

Bass and drums have a solidity usually reserved for Hi Res digital.

Really - many musicians like Neil Young still prefer to record in analogue, most agree that bass in particular is better when recorded in analogue. Some record bass in analogue and voices in digital.

@dover , That was my feeling exactly which is why I opted for the Platinum Signature. 

It is in the bass where the physics of analog playback become really difficult. No such difficulty occurs with digital playback. Digital bass reproduction is universally more accurate. It does not have to deal with resonance frequencies, tracking, etc. Again, accurate does not necessarily mean better sounding to some people.

@rauliruegas , The Opus One has a Duralumin body. It's cantilever is boron. The Platinum signature has a "black ion titanium body." Tracking force is exactly the same for both cartridges 1.9 to 2.2 gm The Platinum Signature is slightly more compliant. I suspect they are using the same stylus. I would have to look at an Opus 1 under magnification to determine that. They both use the same SH-uX core which is Matsudaira's trademark. 

They both use the same SH-uX core which is Matsudaira's trademark. 

The core materias  used in various cartridges go under the radar - no one talks about them. I have a hunch from listening to many cartridges from the same manufacturer ( alnico, samarium cobalt, platinum etc ) with different core materials that we are listening to the core material as much as the cantilever/stylus/generator design.

I cant stand the platinum magnet Koetsu's. Don't know why - technically, but I've heard enough koetsu's of all types from the 80's onward black - rosewood - onyx golds to know there is a plasticky quality that pervades the platinum magnet Koetsu's compared to Suganos earlier cartridges. It has nothing to do with rolled off top end or lush midrange - there is a synthetic quality from mid to upper mid that grates - I'm thinking may be the magnets.

The only other platinum magnet cartridge I've heard is the VDH Colibri - and to me that sounds slightly coarse compared to his others, but not as bad as the Koetsu's.

 

Lol, this thread has me immensely amused. The WBF is such a joke these days that IMO anyone contributing over there is really contributing to the great YAWN. @rauliruegas  take it as a badge of honor that you are banned there, I certainly do.

@mikelavigne  you well know that the remaining members at WBF are all buddies of Steve or worse, Ron. They all follow the same guru and believe the same old BS that the guru pushes. Horns rule, and gear that is non-resolving and as bright as the sun is looked up to, probably because these folks have lost their high frequency hearing years ago!
 

The best cartridge is simple, one that meets your listening biases and your pocketbook, that works on your tonearm in a synergistic manner…and plays well with your phono stage.

Well said @daveyf +1

The best cartridge is simple, one that meets your listening biases and your pocketbook, that works on your tonearm in a synergistic manner…and plays well with your phono stage.

Yep - thats what I posted back in August.

Agree - synergy rules ( and I don't mean the SPU )

Heard so much top end stuff sounding awful due in main to mismatching and poor set up.

@dover as you know I greatly appreciate your expert opinion, but this needs to be corrected. As far as I know VdHul never used platinum magnets. However, he did use platinums coil wire for the Colibri. To the best of my knowledge he’s been the only cartridge designer who ever used this metal for coil wires. It seems particularly difficult to work with and when his supply of sufficient quality wire ran out, it was over. I have one of the last samples of the Colibri XPW African Blackwood, which I treasure. The word ‘coarse’ is about the last I would think of when describing the sound of this cartridge.

@edgewear 

Yes you are correct - brain fart moment - platinum wire. 

I stand by the coarse, in that I mean compared to the gold & copper coils - but it is very subtle. could be sample variations.

Enjoying immensely a custom Grand Cru I recently set up on a friends Kuzma combo.

@dover sample variation probably goes a long way explaining your experience as the Colibris are more prone to this phenomenon that any other cartridge I can think of. As you know they’re also very picky about their companionship. By this I mean tonearm and phono device, not you of course 😋

@daveyf

every forum has it’s warts and baloney factor. and i’m on the outside of that WBF tribe you describe. but i can’t disagree it exists. i push back against it occasionally.

most other forums are much more owner dominant than WBF. but it’s somewhat that way.

if i’m choosing the least messed up forum, that would be WBF for it’s respect for listening perspectives. it allows discussions to happen without constant assaults from left field as happens here. the ratio of content to distraction is better. many very serious minded audiophiles are there. smaller group, a bit more intimate. so it’s where i’m most at home. but it’s far from perfect.

yet the wild wild west of Audiogon has it’s attractions too. you just have to wear your iron underwear. it’s purely commercial so you have lots of ambulance chasing going on if you like that sort of thing. you can’t PM contact info. and the Audiogon interface is maddening. i barely tolerate it. i do like that i can post my system here. that has value to me.

have a nice day.

@mikelavigne   Mike, I would have agreed with you about WBF up until RR got involved. Then, I believe that the owner dominance became prevalent, far more so than any other forum i belonged to. It was that dominance, albeit more subtle than some I can think of, but still more prevalent, that ultimately turned me off the site. To that, the mods/gorts clearly had their favorite members, whom they let say/post just about anything, and the rest were quickly censored...not my idea of equitable. 

Here, we have far more equity with the mods and I think a wider and more open minded group. 

I have noticed also that at WBF the topics and threads have become incredibly boring and dry...nothing to go there for in any way. YMMV.

Have a nice day too.

 

Dear @mijostyn  : Yes, boron. An eropean  owner of the OPUS 1 posted this:

 

" Italian distributor of Air tight told me Opus 1 could be better than MSL platinum because being 30 anniversary of Air Tight they ask to do something very special,while MSL platinum change only the body and the stylus,but until you don't listen both nobody knows.

This opus 1 has an incredible bass and body,very clean,fast and deep and i think ..."

 

He listen in his CH current mode unit.

 

R.

@mijostyn  : I think that both cartridges performs at the same quality level where differences could comes by MSL designer MUSIC preferences against AT vocing preferences.

Maybe the main true difference is that MSL has low price.

 

R.

@rauliruegas  Trying to determine which cartridge sounds better than the other is really a fools errand in many cases. The ML and the AT are very good sounding cartridges, but the set up, the arm, the table, the downstream gear and numerous other variables are in play here. To state unequivocally that one is better than the other is, at least imho..and having heard both, impossible. The synergy of the match up of the cartridge to the other components is crucial…and is where I believe a lot of folks fall into the trap of making an incorrect finding. 
For example, there are folk who believe that all Lyra’s have a certain sound that they find unacceptable..these very same folk are placing the blame at the cartridge, when in fact, the blame should be placed elsewhere. Set up errors, tonearm incompatibility, phono stage incompatibility, etc., 

A very detailed listening session described in an articulate way… dava seems to check the most boxes.

@rauliruegas , My thinking on the price is that with MSL cartridges there is one less middleman. Humans being the way they are would typically make their own product better than one made for another company. But regardless of motivation they are both great cartridges. I have studied the Platinum Signature under high magnification and there can be no argument that it's construction quality is of the highest order. It is easy to see why Air Tight would use MSL to build their cartridges. I have never seen a diamond so beautifully shaped, polished and mounted. All angles are perfect. Placed on a spinning180 gm record the VTA is 92 degrees within a few minutes with the head shell perfectly parallel to the record. Impressive!  With my modified Wallyscope set up so  it is focused at a point around 1/2" from the rim of the record you wait until the stylus travels into focus, take a picture then snap lines along the right landmarks and the program will automatically calculate the angle for you. It will be very interesting to see how other cartridges measure up. When I have the other two I will publish pictures on Imgur.

The first thing that stood up for me was the bass. I think that is most likely the combination of a very low impedance cartridge and a current mode phono stage. I actually prefer the build quality of the Seta vs the CH. I do not like the complexity of the CH and I think the utilization of a massive batter power supply in the Seta is brilliant. I would be willing to bet that one would have a very difficult time telling one cartridge from the other.

@dover , I am not a huge Koetsu fan either. I got a Rosewood back in 1979 and I did not like it at all. Construction quality was iffy, the Denon DL 103 was better, and it did not track well at all. I had a Rosewood Signature Platinum for a short while more recently and again I was not impressed. The MSL is decidedly better.

The best cartridge is the one you think sounds most accurate in your system and that is the problem. In order to know for sure you have to buy the cartridge and use it in your system. You research the subject as best you can but there is no substitute for playing a few records on your own system and by then you own it for better or for worse. You will never know if there wasn't a cartridge that would have suited you better.

 

 

@mijostyn  A while back I had started a thread about how to go about acquiring an expensive cartridge given the lack of ability to demo the cartridge before committing to a purchase. There seemed to be little consensus as to how this could be accomplished, and a number of issues were brought to light.

Chief among them was the fact that no dealer would be happy to have you demo a mega $$ cartridge, put use on the stylus, possibly damage the cartridge while doing the set up and then request a return. This made good sense. 

Now here's the thing, I was lucky enough to have a dealer local to me ( and of course whom I had supported in the past), let me do a demo before committing to purchase of the cartridge under consideration. This did lead me to a purchase, but it also gave me a very nice comfort level with my selection. Nonetheless, the number of dealers who will allow such a thing must be extremely limited, you will pay the dealer price and not some significant discount..and you will have had to have supported the dealer in the past. I think buying a mega $$ cartridge is a risk that is difficult to off-set. 

One thing that was suggested on my thread was for dealers to have demo cartridges on hand to mount on customers arms for a demo period, a small fee to be paid for this service and in the event of purchase, a credit towards said purchase. This is the best suggestion that I think was given...to off-set the risk, BUT it also means higher dealer margins and higher middle man margins to off-set the cost of the demo cartridge. Could be worth it...

@newtoncr  Thank you !  Mike has already said this, but the extra detail is welcome.

@daveyf ,  I have discovered , having purchased 3 top cartridges recently, that online stores will give distant buyers a 10% discount by adding a trade in if they are comfortable with you. You still have to buy the cartridge.

What would be fun would be to start a new online store that just rents cartridges. The customer would have to deposit the full price of the cartridge which would be refunded minus the rental fee when the cartridge is returned in satisfactory condition. You could serially rent all the cartridges you felt were candidates. Having all those cartridges in hand one could also publish photos of build quality and customer reviews of the cartridges. Might be a fun retirement gig. The site could get all it's cartridges at dealer cost by linking those stores that supply cartridges to the site for free.