What is the “World’s Best Cartridge”?
I believe that a cartridge and a speaker, by far, contribute the most to SQ.
The two transducers in a system.
I bit the bulllet and bought a Lyra Atlas SL for $13K for my Woodsong Garrard 301 with Triplanar SE arm. I use a full function Atma-Sphere MP-1 preamp. My $60K front end. It is certainly, by far, the best I have owned. I read so many comments exclaiming that Lyra as among the best. I had to wait 6 months to get it. But the improvement over my excellent $3K Mayijima Shilabi was spectacular-putting it mildly.
I recently heard a demo of much more pricy system using a $25K cartridge. Seemed to be the most expensive cartridge made. Don’t recall the name.
For sure, the amount of detail was something I never heard. To hear a timpani sound like the real thing was incredible. And so much more!
This got me thinking of what could be possible with a different kind of cartridge than a moving coil. That is, a moving iron.
I have heard so much about the late Decca London Reference. A MI and a very different take from a MC. Could it be better? The World’s Best? No longer made.
However Grado has been making MI cartridges for decades. Even though they hold the patent for the MC. Recently, Grado came out with their assault on “The World’s Best”. At least their best effort. At $12K the Epoch 3. I bought one and have been using it now for about two weeks replacing my Lyra. There is no question that the Atlas SL is a fabulous cartridge. But the Epoch is even better. Overall, it’s SQ is the closest to real I have heard. To begin, putting the stylus down on the run in grove there is dead silence. As well as the groves between cuts. This silence is indicative of the purity of the music content. Everything I have read about it is true. IME, the comment of one reviewer, “The World’s Best”, may be true.
it's an un-knowable thing. there is no 'absolute' way to single out a best cartridge. i can say in my personal experience so far, i've not heard another cartridge do what my 'special version' of the Etsuro Gold MC does in my system. it's very expensive, and rare. few have heard it. it has a magical believability along with tone and life. i've had more than a few high level cartridges in my system, but not everything. and there are arm and phono stage variables. |
you will not regret it. best wishes with your new analog rig. the standard Etsuro Gold bettered my previous references clearly including the Clearaudio GFS, Anna Diamond, and vdH Master Signature, which were the most recent one's i had. i had many others over the years which that group had bettered. i've also been very impressed with a field coil cartridge made in Lithuania, the DaVa Reference with a tubed power supply. i've had it for a couple of months and figuring it out. it does some amazing things too. |
@mglik not heard Bob’s system, so i can’t even guess why you might say that. but i can guess how a Quad 57 oriented guy might not mesh with some systems. if you visited Bob’s, you are not that far from me. you would be most welcome to visit and hear the Etsuro Gold(s) in my system......anytime. my big Studers set the bar very high as far as information and my system can use it all in service to the music......so a cartridge need not worry about that. whether my system would tip you over into ’disbelief’ is anyone’s guess. i does work that way for me. not the 'live event'.....but it does touch my soul. |
as far as the performance of the DaVa Reference field coil cartridge with the tubed power supply.....it reminds me of what i heard from the Neumann DST.....but with more top and bottom extension. textures on top of textures, and tonality that is superb. projects lots of energy and life. the tubed power supply sounds better than a solid state power supply. and fits the character of the DaVa. |
@rauliruegas fair enough, my source is second hand feedback from other users. did not have the solid state PS on hand myself. if the tubed power supply is distorted, i love distortion like that. no; the Neumann DST is not a field coil design. it has no separate power supply. i’m told ideally you use a special SUT for it. |
after a few more days listening to the DaVa Reference, my ears tell me that this cartridge plays at the very tip top of cartridge performance. can’t comment on other field coil cartridge efforts, this one is the real deal and a serious effort. whether you believe in a tubed power supply or a solid state power supply is not the issue here (a $1500 to $2000 price difference). i know how it stacks up against my own references, a friend has the top level DS Audio Master One, and has also had the Grand Master. he says the DaVa Reference is looking those level in the eye (at 1/3rd to 1/6th the price) and he is very impressed. there is a 6 month wait time right now to get one. |
i hate to reduce things to dollars as a justification. lots of vintage tt’s that are very capable have more reasonable acquisition costs. my three tt’s are not cheap. the CS Port LFT1 including the linear tracking arm is currently listing around $55k. my Saskia lists at $54k with one arm board. i have 7 arm boards. my Wave Kinetics NVS tt lists at $50k. two of my tone arms are the $15k Durand Tosca. one is my new $28k Primary Control FCL. the point is that it does take a certain level of turntable to enable arms and cartridges to not be held back. i’ve owned the NVS for 11 years. i bought the CS Port new 4 years ago, and the Saskia used 4 years ago. so these are part of a long term plan of system building. i wanted to have a great direct drive tt, belt driven tt, and idler tt to enjoy each drive type at a high level. |
ok, maybe you have not understood my answers about the power supply for the DaVa cartridge.🙄 here is the messgae the DaVa builder, Darius, sent me in January regarding the power supply choices. i went with the 1500 euro choice. plus 6000 euro for the cartridge, plus, as i recall, 400 euro for shipping,
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the DaVa is electric! alive! nothing lean, or or clinical. projects lots of energy. harmonically rich timbre and textures. robust bass. very fast and agile. but a touch raw and immediate, as opposed to overly liquid and slow. the very best MC’s (my special [and ultra costly] Etsuro Gold’s) might be more refined. will make many cartridges seem tame and languid in direct comparison.....but the DaVa has zero edge or glare. you are connected to the music, and not thinking about the sound. maybe the very best and most real reproduced vocals i’ve yet heard. if someone claimed it’s the very best cartridge i could not argue. but i’m not going there. |
i have a long held process to judge my sources, including my turntables and cartridges, and that is RTR tape with my Studer A-820’s and King Cello tape repro. as those have stayed constant for now.......15 years, it’s a reference hard to surpass. my vinyl has certainly gained on the field of my master dub collection over the years. the DaVa Reference is not some alien sound from outer space. it’s ’like’ my Etsuro Gold cartridges, and my tape. it’s music, and is able to attain ’suspension of disbelief’ frequently. very immersive and engaging. it has it’s own outstanding "musical" qualities for sure. i hope you do get to hear one. i fully respect that we all view methods of technology for ourselves and have a right to our opinions about it. |
i am disappointed to read about these attempts to discredit the DaVa without even hearing it. we all have a right to our opinions. i appreciate that. but please respectfully qualify your remarks that you have not heard it, so you really don’t know how good it is. then take your shots if you must. guessing about products is part of what we do here. then if you DO ever hear it, tell us how that goes. thank you. |
why do i even come to Audiogon? sillyness. i am talking about 30 years of analog based Lps and what is the reference for those? they were all tape sourced. and any digital transfer involved, started with tape. i have no interest in this discussion. i’m a big believer in digital and have a huge commitment to it. love it. i’m sure i’m more invested than anyone on this forum in digital, by far. but.....my Studers kill it if we are talking making music. digital is accurate at particular points, analog is complete. complete wins hands down. every time. i listen to digital for access to new music and for ease of use. listen to digital 60-70% of the time. but ultimate performance does not involve digital.....in any step. |
honestly; this stuff is not that complicated. but it does require commitment and effort. acquire great digital and analog sources, and great original/native media, then a great room and system to listen. listen and see what you prefer. don’t tell me about opinions other than you listened and this is what you heard. the other stuff matters to try and explain it. but the other stuff does not make the case. listening makes the case. we don't all have to agree on what we hear. but it's about that. |
watch the video. Bernie agrees with you about every step degrading. so best to master as direct as possible. which in no way favors digital.
Bernie feels every digital step also degrades things compared to the original native source format. any manipulation degrades. digital plug in tools degrade. some recordings need fixing, and some artists want particular results that might not deliver the best sound to all listeners. so digital manipulation is done for a variety of reasons. but what might Bernie Grundman know that you don’t know? we all might have our own opinion about that. personally, my own opinion is that i love to listen to digital, especially native great digital recordings. with great performances. not mucked with. i hear what Bernie hears. i prefer analog when done right, but feel digital can be exceptional when done simply, or a mess on some level when processed. music is wonderful, and recordings can tell us that if we let them. or we can strangle the music too. |
"To make comments lacking the experience to back them up is absurd" i used the word silly to express the same thought. listen to the gear, tell us what you hear. or know you will not be taken seriously. do the work. i acquired the cartridges, listened, and said what i heard about the original question. expressed my listening opinion. tell us about your opinion about the best cartridge. |
Raul, nothing personal regarding my dropping out of this discussion. i simply do not see the value to me in this thread. unfortunately a frequent Audiogon experience. and honestly the Audiogon interface is very frustrating to navigate compared to any other forum. too much noise, not enough signal, to hold my attention. |
i listen to Dizzy Gillespie’s Big 4 lp pressing on the DaVa Reference cartridge. then listen to a digital transfer. with the Lp Dizzy’s trumpet hits 95 watt peaks on my dart 468 monoblocks. at the same SPL’s the digital hits 45 watt peaks. the DaVa also sounds more real and life like....but that is subjective, the peak watts are an objective measurement of signal energy. i can cite many similar occurrences. btw; the DaVa also surpasses other cartridges too, but not nearly by as much. just more energy. i love digital. but it cannot do some things analog can do. it smears peaks. still sounds wonderful. but it is not the same.
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i changed my mind. had something to say, so i said it. and i deserve flack for being a putz. bring it on.😀 as far as digital ’smears peaks’ what i mean is that in a relative sense, digital rounds off the top of the transient compared to the analog original. so the ’peak’ of the horn blat is rounded, does not quite get reproduced with the same level of energy, and we hear the difference as a difference in the liveness and realism. the pressing sounds ’real’. it hits you. the digital is relatively tame in direct compare. not as real life. normally we might just relate our personal view of what we heard. but if you have a peak output device on your amps, you can read the number. and hard to argue the number. even though i know you will write another 4 paragraphs with an argument. as far my amps distorting, not very likely. they do 450 watts into 8 ohms. the passive towers of my speakers are 97db, 7 ohm....so a very easy load. and under 40hz i have active powered bass towers with 2000 watts on each tower. amp linearity is not an issue. |
i think it's a mistake to use generalizations about materials to be the final arbiter of choice. it does take the pressure off actually investigating with an open mind and ears. i do respect it is simpler just to read specs and throw out pronouncements. there is this thing called listening. we can listen and look at the components of the cartridge, but unless we could listen with various different material choices we don't really know what is causing what. i have opinions about materials, but am not religious about it. we all have our own approach. and result. YMMV. |
now an 8 month wait for a DaVa, wait getting longer all the time. and as it’s sold direct it’s a steal at the price. best approach is to order one, then when it comes in, easy to sell it to those on the wait list, if it does not float your boat.....or you like something better. i find the DaVa the perfect compliment to my diamond tipped Etsuro Gold. |
careful never to listen to a DaVa. you might then choke on those words, which could be fatal. don’t say i never warned you. btw; owned an Ortofon MC Diamond, along with a couple of MC Anna’s and A90’s. all fine cartridges not quite in the DaVa’s league. i sold my MC Anna and Clearaudio GFS, when i got my first standard Etsuro Gold and compared those three. the Etsuro Gold was another level in realism. but in the MC Anna price range it was a winner. a very fine cartridge. since the DaVa is sold direct without any middle men or distribution (so far), the value equation is remarkable.
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in my decades of activity i have yet to meet an audiophile, any audiophile, who does anything but listen to gear to make decisions. whether it’s gear, or pressings, or digital files or whatever....we listen. and to interact, we have to respect listening perceptions. otherwise, chaos...or even worse..... ASR. i’m sure such people exist, but i have no desire to meet one or to hang with them. and Raul, you did not build your system or choose recordings by measurements. so why, as long time respectable friends, do you continue to torment me with all this baloney about distortions and measurements? why? certainly all reproduced music contains distortions, it’s never perfect. never will be. so what? you don’t believe that crap. i tell you what i hear, and please tell me what you hear. but enough already with all the noise. it’s just a waste of time. i respect you and am interested in what you hear. |
i’m not qualified to judge the tech of LFD cables (Dr. Richard Bews) other than what my ears tell me. for those curious about what Raul is referring to here is a thread with information about them. in that thread are references to Be Yamamura and Dr. Hawksford who Richard Bews studied with. are those guys right? or way off base? who knows? unanswerable. all i can say is i hear the most coherent, top to bottom balanced, and micro-dynamically alive, musical presentation of any cables i have heard. very sonorous yet agile sounding. are they perfect? don’t know. Raul; i assume when you use the term ’PC’ you are referring to a personal computer...digital? right. not sure my Wadax server/dac might be confused with a personal computer?😀 why did i not use the LFD cables there? simple; my view is that while my digital uses normal line level, cartridges are dealing with much more delicate signals, .2 to .5 mv, and the cables are much more important and so i invested more there. not that my interconnects for my digital are cheap, just not quite as exotic. plus LFD cables are hard to acquire as they are all hand made by Dr. Bews and might be back-ordered a year or more. the few that have heard or owned LFD cables are quite broadly impressed with them. btw; i will respond to your thoughtful earlier post when i get a chance. |
the answer for the ’PC’ meaning Phono Corrector’ is the same as my other answer, but it involves a little more detail to describe my evolution. step one for me was my first ’exotic’ LFD din<->phono cable i used on my CS Port tt and linear tracking arm. next i added an LFD Raptor between my CS Port phono and my darTZeel preamp. and i was using a short set of rca i.c.’s provided by Dave Slagle between the EMIA SUT’s and the CS Port phono. these short (18") interconnects were spec’d by Dave to work in that spot. the tech for this short SUT <-> PHONO cable is unique to that particular place and beyond my understanding. next i added a second LFD din<->phono for a second arm. everything else the same. next i switched from the CS Port phono (which had three inputs) to the EMIA Phono Corrector. but this also created a temporary problem since the Phono Corrector only had one input. i was having an MC Trio built with three inputs, but first i had to determine the SUT values for the Trio, and especially for the DaVa this was a challenge. had to wait for it to arrive then experiment with different SUT’s. we did figure that out and the MC Trio was built arriving in August. so i had 3 arms, but only two LFD phono cables, and one LFD set of Raptor rca’s. this is when i acquired the LFD dongle. the dongle is a short 11" long contraption that overcomes the limitation of the 5 pin DIN connection which is a limitation of the din<->rca phono cables. the dongle breaks all the rules and actually uses tubes of metal instead of wire, and is very stiff. the last pages of that LFD thread do talk about the dongle and show pictures. to use the dongle i had to add the LFD Raptor interconnects to it. which left me without a LFD cable between the Phono Corrector and the dart pre. the idea being that the phono cables were orders of magnitude more significant than the interconnect between the phono pre and dart pre. i wanted tip top phono cables first and foremost. so i’m hearing all three cartridges and arms at their best. it did turn out that the dongle + Raptor was the best phono cable. we did some cartridge switching to verify that. more dynamics and space from the dongle/Raptor. temporarily i used a set of inexpensive but highly regarded interconnects; https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07FRBTBVF?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details meanwhile, i had a friend of mine build me a set of 1.5m ’skunkworks’ rca interconnects which i now have been listening for 10 days which are much better. i’m about to switch the cheap set back in to see the difference. my reasoning for not replacing the LFD Raptor with another is two fold. first, another Raptor is very expensive, and second, i would need to wait at least a year to get one. hoping my friends handwork will suffice. my impressions are very positive.....but in any case it’s an even playing field for all three tonearms/phono cables. |
fundamentally using an SUT potentially brings a musical touch, inner artistic view and envelopment that high gain phono preamps such as the darTZeel can’t quite do in the same way. this effect varies with actual execution of the phono and SUT. my experience is that the silver wound EMIA phono and SUT is very special in this regard. but hard to make an objective case.....it’s purely experiential. like......music. certainly the best high gain phono’s have their own attributes which i enjoy when i choose to use that approach. it’s good to have that choice. |
yes; the EMIA phono corrector + MC Trio is a package deal; which then can be compared directly with the two high gain internal phono’s inside the darTZeel preamp. the dart phono’s are very good; overall i prefer the EMIA approach. but then i might prefer it to any phono i have heard. the dart phono is certainly hard to beat at what it does. my CS Port phono (which the EMIA Phono Corrector replaced) had three inputs; one of which was an internal SUT; the other two were MM inputs which required outboard SUT’s. as far as balanced cables the only way to go with analog signals, that is a silly thing to say. who has heard all the non balanced choices? no one. i do respect the advantages to a balanced circuit and cables, but things are not so simple as that being the only thing that matters. it's just one aspect to the performance. |
yada, yada, yada. your love affair with balanced circuits is legendary. are you wrong about them? no. are balanced circuits the ’main thing’ about how circuits might perform? no. balanced circuits = one advantage....but not the whole ball game....which is what you are saying. and that cannot be known. we all can have an opinion about it though. the best performing systems i have heard up till now have not used balanced circuits. which proves nothing either. since that aspect of a system is not dominant in it’s performance....one way....or another. |
thanks. can’t argue with any of that. balanced circuits and cables have their advantages. my issue was more @mijostyn ’s comment
it's just not.....the....only....way |
i use the proprietary darTZeel 50ohm BNC ’zeel’ interface for my long runs (one 8 meter, the other 11 meter) in my system. properly executed, even better than balanced. a one meter 50 ohm cable sounds the same as a .5 kilometer of 50 ohm cable.....when properly executed. impedance matching rules. but fully agree that RCA is not up to the task of long runs. XLR is far superior for that. and the pro audio world rightly chooses XLR as a superior interface compared to RCA. OTOH with short phono cables it’s all execution. whatever sounds best. possibly all things being equal balanced might be superior technically......but......of course.....all things are pretty much never equal. you have to listen to pick the winner. the LFD execution is crazy stuff. if LFD used XLR i suppose it might be even better.....but most of the best phono preamps are not true balanced designs, which is another issue. btw; i have that Classic Records 45rpm LZ box set. i’m sure you are having some fun with the dubbing. you need to hear it with the DaVa sometime.......freaking awesome. superior to my LZ 15ips 1/4" master dubs. |
if you want to learn about the theory behind the ’zeel’ 50 ohm cable interface, here is a paper published in the September 2001 issue of Stereophile by Herve Delatraz (manufacturer/designer of darTZeel), describing ’echo’s in conventional cable interfaces, prior to the introduction of the brand darTZeel. you will need some some math, physics or engineering chops to digest much of it. http://www.townshendaudio.com/PDF/Impedance_matching%20deletraz%20paper.pdf |
over the years i’ve had multiple phono cables through my system; currently i have three other ’basic’ phono din<->rca’s i have swapped in and out. over the 3 years i’ve tried various versions of the LFD including the Dongle/Raptor recently. the LFD’s have been significant steps up over my other choices per my comments in that thread you read. as well as big steps up over my basic choices. when i did my listening my local friend ’jazdoc’ helped me to listen and judge. he had also been involved in previous phono cable swaps in my system with Durand phono cables and Found Music phono cables of various build choices. so this is something i have done my fair share of. as i wrote, you have to view LFD cables as components. they take you further. you likely also read other comments from LFD cable users in that thread. my viewpoint is not singular. so your perspective does not reflect my experience. i do respect that you have an opinion. LFD electronics are not relevant to the high end hand built LFD cables. if you find info on LFD electronics you will find that they are very modestly priced.......never heard them myself and have no opinion about them. i respect overall skepticism about any high end cables........and know it’s always going to be presumption of guilt. zero benefit of the doubt. before i separated myself from my money i did my listening tests. not trying to sell LFD cables......they are over a year back ordered and impossible to get. it's easy to take shots........much harder to acquire and listen and then report. which is all i’m doing. if you ever hear top level LFD phono cables do please tell us about it. |
i guess one man’s perspective of listening opinions not being respected, is another man’s delight over splitting hairs over hifi equipment. so time for me to go fishing. or......be where my listening opinions are more respected. the balance here is just not for me. not really that big a deal. posters here don’t need to know my opinions about gear they mostly have never heard. here it’s more about the trees, i’m a forest guy. why should i be where i’m mostly a target since i bring listening opinions that are then attacked to feed the hair splitting? does not make sense....to me. |
sorry, but considering my feelings, and your apparent concern that i am not happy, your post above is just more of the same negative ranting. you continue to try to demonstrate that my opinions are flawed.
my gear is flawed.
my processes are flawed.
here and there you try to show respect, but then go and step on me again. you are free to do this, of course. but for me, i’m done with all of it. i do respect @mijostyn for his honesty about not caring a whit about anyone’s listening opinions. and honestly don’t care to be in a forum with him either. nothing personal of course. but i prefer to post with people i would enjoy listening with, and that post as if we are together face to face. it’s just how i am. and back it up by inviting anyone to come and listen with me.....anytime. if you were here in my room would you go on and on like your posting? would anyone?🙄 i would hope not. |
look at that. you wrote a whole post addressed to me without once saying my opinions, gear or process is flawed. so it is possible. i have no problem with anyone’s writing skills and respect that English is your second language. that is never an issue for me. your style is never disrespectful. but you constantly finding flaws in my activities is not something i can be around. i don’t claim to be right all the time, and some level of critique is fine. but too much is too much. so it’s up to you how you deal with that. when you claim "absolute" truths, whether about tubes or digital, or anything, it’s going to cause problems. so know that those type approaches are polarizing and maybe try to avoid them. you cite these absolutes in your critiques of others and it’s very irritating. just think about softening your perspectives a bit and not ’preach’ about them. this idea is one thing that bothers me about your responses to me. while you do this quite a bit, you are not the only one. i’m not a moderator, or any higher level authority about posting. only that i do care about posts pointed toward me, and so have opinions about those. enough said. |
every forum has it’s warts and baloney factor. and i’m on the outside of that WBF tribe you describe. but i can’t disagree it exists. i push back against it occasionally. most other forums are much more owner dominant than WBF. but it’s somewhat that way. if i’m choosing the least messed up forum, that would be WBF for it’s respect for listening perspectives. it allows discussions to happen without constant assaults from left field as happens here. the ratio of content to distraction is better. many very serious minded audiophiles are there. smaller group, a bit more intimate. so it’s where i’m most at home. but it’s far from perfect. yet the wild wild west of Audiogon has it’s attractions too. you just have to wear your iron underwear. it’s purely commercial so you have lots of ambulance chasing going on if you like that sort of thing. you can’t PM contact info. and the Audiogon interface is maddening. i barely tolerate it. i do like that i can post my system here. that has value to me. have a nice day. |
