What is the “World’s Best Cartridge”?

@mglik

"What is the “World’s Best Cartridge?” - "best" does not exist! :-) There are good carts, fancy ones, to impress, professional-robust, and tuned for specific vinyl, etc.

"cartridge and a speaker, by far, contribute the most to SQ.” SQ starts with Artist, instruments, studio, etc.

Any “bad” or “unmatched” part in TT+Tonearm+head-shell+cart(SUT)+ph-cable+phono-pre+pre+amp+speakers+room analog sound path impacts SQ!

My recent “good-cart” discovery is 1984 made NOS AT-ML170 (MM)

 

@solypsa  : Of course you can't maybe because you have not the experience levels or only because you are seller of a different cartridges. Who cares?, not me.

 

R.

Funny Raul.

I am glad you don’t care; we neither know enough about each other for such.

Btw for clarity: I said "wouldn't" not ( as you assert) 'couldn't'.

 

@dogberry  , I never listen to anything else I have to say, worthless drivel. 

@rauliruegas, @atmasphere, @mikelavigne  I think we can all agree that balanced signal cables are essential for long runs. The benefits in signal to noise ratio and other parameters can not be overlooked. I am beginning to learn that the same is true when dealing with small signal levels. I have recorded Sheffield Lab 17 balanced, unbalanced, with and without digital RIAA correction. I have yet to involve other listeners and I will after I figure out the best way to transfer that much data. Gammaman has the Classic Records 45 rpm crate set of all the Led Zeppelin albums. I’m up there now to Zoso and loving every minute.

@mijostyn

i use the proprietary darTZeel 50ohm BNC ’zeel’ interface for my long runs (one 8 meter, the other 11 meter) in my system. properly executed, even better than balanced. a one meter 50 ohm cable sounds the same as a .5 kilometer of 50 ohm cable.....when properly executed. impedance matching rules.

but fully agree that RCA is not up to the task of long runs. XLR is far superior for that. and the pro audio world rightly chooses XLR as a superior interface compared to RCA.

OTOH with short phono cables it’s all execution. whatever sounds best. possibly all things being equal balanced might be superior technically......but......of course.....all things are pretty much never equal. you have to listen to pick the winner. the LFD execution is crazy stuff. if LFD used XLR i suppose it might be even better.....but most of the best phono preamps are not true balanced designs, which is another issue.

btw; i have that Classic Records 45rpm LZ box set. i’m sure you are having some fun with the dubbing. you need to hear it with the DaVa sometime.......freaking awesome. superior to my LZ 15ips 1/4" master dubs.

if you want to learn about the theory behind the ’zeel’ 50 ohm cable interface, here is a paper published in the September 2001 issue of Stereophile by Herve Delatraz (manufacturer/designer of darTZeel), describing ’echo’s in conventional cable interfaces, prior to the introduction of the brand darTZeel. you will need some some math, physics or engineering chops to digest much of it.

http://www.townshendaudio.com/PDF/Impedance_matching%20deletraz%20paper.pdf

@mikelavigne 

Hi Mike I followed your thread on the phono cable sea on WBF.

Whilst I do not doubt what you have heard in your system ( and I assume no-one here has heard your system, so comments are speculative ), and I have huge respect for your commitment to analogue, I have concerns re the LFD phono cable.

Firstly I am a little jaundiced by the brand since a friend was loaned a pair of LFD Reference mono blocks and quite frankly they were awful. So bad we pulled a pair of unmodified Leak TL12plus monos out of the cupboard and confirmed our fears the LFD had less resolution and information than the old Leaks ( driving some Von Schweikerts ).

I have also heard the LFD phono at length - again underwhelming, not as bad as the mono's but midfi at best.

With regards to the LFD phono cables I note from the WBF thread that the development for the more expensive model from the lower one basically involves playing around with physical construction and attributes and listening. There is no science discussed.

The warning signs that this cable is simply a tone control, is twofold -

1. Adding bundles and combos of wire a la Yamamura is trial and error.

2. More importantly you must ask the question based on the following observation

A moving coil cartridge is an inherently symmetrical device ( coil and 2 tails ).

A MC step up transformer provides an inherently symmetrical input ( coil and 2 tails).

Therefore why would you use an asymmetrical cable where the +ve and -ve sides are different in this application. It makes no sense.

Have you ever tried balancing a wheelbarrow with one side heavier than the other ?

Unfortunately, there are a lot of awful cables out there regardless of price. ( I use to distribute several high end cable brands back in the mid 80's and have tried multitudes including many different constructs and many prototypes from various manufacturers ). Most high end cables are a set of compromises chosen by the designer - hence the endless debates. When one of my pals tries a new megabuck cable out, I usually grab a pair of my old cables from the 80's, take them over, do a blind test, and hey presto the $8k cables usually go back.

In my own system I use 2 phono cables depending on the cartridge - both twisted pair plus shield from 2 different manufacturers.

I have one that is highly capacitive that I use for all MC's ( the best phono cable I have tried ).

I have a different phono cable that has very low capacitance that I use specifically for moving iron and moving magnet cartridges. ( With moving magnet cartridges the electrical parameters of the phono cables and phono input form an electrical circuit that determines the cartridges high frequency linearity and phase response, unlike MC's ).

Similarly with SUT to phono - my reference phono cable is too capacitive and I have a specific lower capacitive cable for this application - in this case it is not twisted pair but a speciffically woven symmetrical litz wire loom that is closest to my reference without the negative impact of capacitance in this application.

Interestingly on WBF there was a thread on what cables do CH Precision owners use. I find it interesting that half a dozen owners use half a dozen different interconnects between the same pre/power. You cant explain this by the system whole, because the pre/power are all the same - ergo, these guys are buying tone controls, not reference cables. 

Hope this has given you something to ponder - if I were you I would grab a few pairs of well designed basic cables ( symmetrical construction not asymmetrical or coaxial ) and go back and compare to your LFD - it might be illuminating, and educational - one way or the other.

 

 

 

 

 

 

@dover

over the years i’ve had multiple phono cables through my system; currently i have three other ’basic’ phono din<->rca’s i have swapped in and out. over the 3 years i’ve tried various versions of the LFD including the Dongle/Raptor recently. the LFD’s have been significant steps up over my other choices per my comments in that thread you read. as well as big steps up over my basic choices. when i did my listening my local friend ’jazdoc’ helped me to listen and judge. he had also been involved in previous phono cable swaps in my system with Durand phono cables and Found Music phono cables of various build choices. so this is something i have done my fair share of.

as i wrote, you have to view LFD cables as components. they take you further. you likely also read other comments from LFD cable users in that thread. my viewpoint is not singular.

so your perspective does not reflect my experience. i do respect that you have an opinion.

LFD electronics are not relevant to the high end hand built LFD cables. if you find info on LFD electronics you will find that they are very modestly priced.......never heard them myself and have no opinion about them. i respect overall skepticism about any high end cables........and know it’s always going to be presumption of guilt. zero benefit of the doubt.

before i separated myself from my money i did my listening tests. not trying to sell LFD cables......they are over a year back ordered and impossible to get.

it's easy to take shots........much harder to acquire and listen and then report. which is all i’m doing. if you ever hear top level LFD phono cables do please tell us about it.

@mikelavigne 

..but most of the best phono preamps are not true balanced designs, which is another issue.

This is the key issue.  As ralph points out just using an XLR means nothing and in order to take advantage of a balanced interface one must adhere to AES48.  Just because a XLR connector has the ability to be wired to that standard does not mean that everything that it is plugged into also adheres to that standard.  If one aspect of the standard is not met, the whole concept collapses.

@dover 

A moving coil cartridge is an inherently symmetrical device ( coil and 2 tails ).

A MC step up transformer provides an inherently symmetrical input ( coil and 2 tails).

Therefore why would you use an asymmetrical cable where the +ve and -ve sides are different in this application. It makes no sense.

This is an instance where the necessary aspects of the AES48 can exist at the source and the load but in order to operate 'properly' the interface cabling must also be done to the standard (twisted pair with a shield) and I have only experienced a few cases where using this interface worked the same or better than the 'conventional' method.   In all of the cases that worked, the tonearm was specifically (re)wired for this purpose.   With a SUT the RCA cable interface is fine for running the AES standard since the shield can simply be joined externally to the tonearm/table and SUT grounds making sure the primary of the SUT has no ground reference.  In fact at no point in the AES48 is an XLR connector called out, it just happens to be the industry accepted connector.  

 

dave

 

 

OTOH with short phono cables it’s all execution. whatever sounds best. possibly all things being equal balanced might be superior technically......but......of course.....all things are pretty much never equal. you have to listen to pick the winner. the LFD execution is crazy stuff. if LFD used XLR i suppose it might be even better..

You get the same benefit with short cables as you do long cables. The idea that balanced really only benefits you when the cables are long is a common myth. The advantages are several as I showed above, and these become more important when the signal strength is lower. Of course the LFD cable would work better balanced, as well as any balanced cable if built correctly.

@intactaudio is correct in his post just above. It really sounds to me as if all the balanced gear you've heard doesn't support the balanced standard; if that is the case then the results will be highly variable.

If you really want to do single-ended connections a 50Ohm coax is really the only way to do it properly without cable interactions, but to do so you need appropriate driver and receiver circuitry.

The funny thing is other than the balanced input on the phono preamp, running a proper balanced connection from the cartridge is actually easier than running single-ended. The arm wiring doesn't change; its all about the tonearm cable being built properly. You know that weird ground wire that other single-ended sources don't seem to need? That' s because its a balanced system being run single-ended and you have to do something with the ground, which isn't connected to the cartridge- that's the ground wire. When running balanced that is the shield connection (pin 1 of the XLR), which is a continuation of the shielding the arm tube provides, and its not able to intermodulate noise into the signal since ground is ignored by the receiver (in this case the phono input, which could be an SUT with a balanced connection).

So when running balanced the only tricky bit is that just like any phono cable, its best to keep the cable capacitance low so as to keep the electrical resonance as high as possible. With LOMC cartridges, this resonance is typically in the MHz region.

The hardest part about all this is something called the Veblen Effect. Literally people think that because they are paying more that there is more value. This isn't always the case! Veblen causes people to want to spend more on a cable, thinking that they will get greater performance/SQ. Its important to know that can sometimes be illusory.

Dear @mikelavigne : Some way or the other @dover is telling you almost the same as me and you still hide behind that " I like it " in exactly the same way the manufacturer/distributor Mick did it. Again, the main issue is not what you or any one else " like it " but what is wrong or rigth ! ! ! !

I already told that Mick says " the proof is in the listening " as an answer to a direct questions to him looking for specs/science but things are as I posted that they not know nothing about and as you they trust in a very well regarded but heavy limited " tool " named EARS that foolished not only you with the Dava terrible FR spec but to all wbf gentlemans excatly as with the LFD.

But you just don’t get or do not understand the main issue because you just posted @mijostyn " you need to hear it with the DaVa sometime.......freaking awesome ", go figure ? ?

Btw, Mick posted there that a change of cables inside the electronics makes a wide change for the better using LFD cables with out think that the best cable inside electronics is NO cable at all. These LFD people are not crazy and they know exactly how to take money from the in good faith audio customers and they do it with huge success because always are gentlemans like the ones in wbf.

 

Dover posted exactly what I posted at least 3 times to you that’s not the issue under discussion:

 

" I do not doubt what you have heard in your system " and he continued confirmed what other posted here:

 

" There is no science discussed. "

 

and he is rigth when he said that almost all of you in that wbf use the IC cables as TONE CONTROLS. It’s less expensive and way better to have a good designed equalizer and exist several to buy.

Please, I posted you that/your beloved cartridge 6db FR deviation function as an equalizer because any single discrete frequency deviation affects almost two octave including harmonics and these are facts.

 

Not the manufacturers of those audio items and certainly no one of their owners have any single fact/spec that can explain that what all of you is rigth, no one has any single evidence about and again the ! ears " of all of you just foolished all.

 

You have very good relationship with Mick and bonzo75, invite both to have a friendly dialogue here . Maybe there is something we are loosing down there.

 

Please think on these: you are really dedicated and with high commitment with all your room/system choices and very special with analog where your DD and ID TTs are top quality performers, both mounted in vibrations-free plattforms, controled electrical sources, with two top tonearms and along those and several other characteristics you own the Dartzeel phonolinepreamp and I wonder for what that huge commitment for your self with the signal cartridge if just at the output of the tonearm that cartridge signal be destroyed/demolished and in this thread are the evidences of that destruction.

 

R.

Talking of the proof being in the listening, I just realised I have been making an elementary mistake, and I bet most of you do it too.

This is about getting the volume right when comparing cartridges. I expect we all know that volume influences how we perceive sound, and are aware of the warning that a constant desire to turn the volume up indicates there is something inadequate in the sound chain.
I have been continuing to compare cartridges, and have begun to revisit some that I initially discarded as lacking. After struggling for an hour with some 309 headshells (I would like to have a word with the designer about the stupidity of arranging a nut and bolt that do not line up until they are actually fully engaged...) I replaced the Ortofon Kontrapunkt C with the Grado Statement 3. Not a permanent change, just for fun and comparison. I like the Ortofon, but had been disappointed with the Grado. But since my last try I have changed my phono amp, and it is more obvious now when cartridge outputs vary (the new one can cope with five inputs and remembers their settings). I noticed straight away that once I had set the phono to MM for this MI cartridge, I was having to crank up the pre-amp volume control compared to where it had lived for ages when dealing with the London Reference (output 5mV into an MM input) and the Ortofon (0.47mV into an MC input). The Grado puts out 1mV, so it makes perfect sense it would require a twist of the volume knob compared to the London Decca.

I don't remember there being such an obvious difference when using the Quad 24p last time, and that was probably me rather than the phono stage. To be fair to myself, I have also been coping with now-you-see-them-now-don't Quad 2905s that seem to require frequent repairs (I may have a Heath Robinson fix applied).

So now I have set the volume so that an app that measures SPL on my phone reads between 50-60dB where I sit (it doesn't matter if it isn't very accurate in absolute terms as long as it is consistent I can compare). Now I have to listen to a bunch of albums and compare to the Decca on the other table, with its output set to something similar. Doesn't seem fair to compare without getting this right. Probably should pick a single track to set SPL level whenever I change cartridge so I can be consistent. I am moving forward with a pair of tonearm pods so I can have four tonearms and cartridges on the go at once, and it rather makes sense to have a level playing field for them.

When at my friend's home who has produced my Tonearm, this a system where many of the comparison / demonstrations are carried out between various Cart's brought along to be used. All comparison / demonstrations are undertaken with a db metre monitoring the listening levels to keep an accuracy and control measure for the evaluation.

Only when all is done and dusted in the comparisons, will the listeners ask to hear a replay of choice at a level they are accustomed to. 

For myself at times, I have found this measure a bit like using a Headphone as a Speaker, it takes a little time to become accustomed to a level not usually selected, especially when used on an owned and very familiar Cart', but once a few tracks are played, the benefits of controlling the levels between the candidates are soon noticed.     

The one that sounds best to you is the best. 
 

That said, I use a Koetsu Onyx. I have a Koetsu Rosewood Signature as a backup. I use a Grado for 78s. 

@dogberry 

I expect we all know that volume influences how we perceive sound, and are aware of the warning that a constant desire to turn the volume up indicates there is something inadequate in the sound chain.

That one is new to me and in fact I have found just the opposite to be true.  When a system excels I find that the levels can get to the point where you don't realize how loud it is until you try to have a conversation over the music.  Since this is about cartridges, Lets assume we have two level matched cartridges with one showing slightly more tracing distortion than the other.  Many people will find the one with more distortion sounds louder and more detailed while the lower distortion one sounds dark and closed in.  However if you bump the level of the 'murky' cartridge a dB or two then suddenly it excels and reveals the flaws of its higher distortion brethren.

dave

 

@dogberry , you are absolutely right that in order to make comparisons in audio, volume levels need to be matched perfectly. The louder signal between sources of almost equal quality is always going to sound better even if you can't tell that it is louder. Where you are off a bit is in magnitude. In order to fool the human ear you only need a 0.3 dB difference in volume. That is far below the resolution of any common measurement device. If comparing electronic gear this can be done with a test signal and an accurate meter or oscilloscope. In comparing program sources like different pressings of an album it gets much tougher. Using a sound pressure meter is really no better than using your ears which can get you within a dB if you are good at it but never under 0.3 db unless you are very lucky. This is one main reason why you see so many varied opinions on comparisons.  Overlay the biases we all develop and you have a real mess. We can use our ears to evaluate equipment to a degree if the differences are severe enough. If not then you have to be very careful.

@pindac. As I stated above a dB meter is not near accurate enough to make these comparisons fair. I have one which I use to make sure I am not damaging my ears when I crank it. With cartridge comparisons you can use a test record and a meter or oscilloscope on the output of the phono stage. Comparing program sources is a much more difficult proposition. An oscilloscope with a peak hold function could do it but the set up would be very cumbersome and to prove what? I prefer just listening to the version I like which is precisely what the vast majority of us deplorables do:-)

I agree with Intact as regards the perceived benefit of increasing SPL when the SQ is very high. If SQ is perceived as poor, increasing SPL makes mediocre SQ less tolerable, in my experience.

Dear @intactaudio : " When a system excels I find that the levels can get to the point where you don’t realize how loud it is until you try to have a conversation over the music. Since this is about cartridges, Lets assume we have two level matched cartridges with one showing slightly more tracing distortion than the other. Many people will find the one with more distortion sounds louder and more detailed while the lower distortion one sounds dark and closed in. "

 

I can’t be more in agreement that with your post where other gentlemans were in agreement by 2018 in these posts:

 

"" Unfortunately accentuated dynamics and resolution all too often mean a really nasty peak at the HF. ""

 

 

""" but be careful not to delude yourself.
Audiophiles .... tend to get seduced by what are essentially deviations from what the real listening experience provides- such as excessive detail, ability to resolve supposed room artifacts etc. etc.
These effects, in my substantial experience of live performances, just do not exist in a live listening environment, """

 

Just when I started to post in Agon and from there today I posted my first hand experiences through different times in different threads and with different audio item devices but all of those experiences are directly related to what intact audio shared:

 

the very first time that I remember to was around 30 years ago when I made a change of cables in my tonearm output where the IC was made of cooper and I changed by VDH silver cable. I did it with out any tiny SPL change. My first impressions were " terrible " and a heavy disappointment because with the silver cable suddenly the sound turn out DULL/no life. I make 3-4 times the cable change in the same listening session and at the end I left connected the VDH silver cable.

Next day and with out changing the SPL I listening with that silver cable by 4-5 hours in a row till I understand ( that was my first time I really was aware what in hell were happening down there. ) that what I was listening in reality was not a DULL sound but a way better quality sound level with " huge " lower distortions. That was the first time that I been aware too the benefit of the cable change for achieve too a lower system NOISE FLOOR.

Other experiences in exactly the same way ( with out changing SPL. ) and you can read it in my capacitor thread ( tech talk forum. ) where I posted the thread looking for help by other technical very good audiophiles knowing that my knowledge level about were lower than I imagine and I was a " follower " when talk about the best capacitors: things were that after some time in the thread I found out that the forbidden Wima/Vishay caps are the best caps ever. Obviously that all those gentlemans told me everything you could thing against me but one of those gentlemans took my challenge and he change ( somewhere in his system. ) his Jantzen expensive caps ( fancy caps that I owned too. As a fact I owned almost all fancy caps: Duelund, Jupiter, Mundorf, cooper tefon V-caps, and the like. I tested the Wima/VIshay either in electronics in a way critical place and at my speakers crossovers. ) for a 8.00 dollars Wima caps and after 2 weeks he posted that he did not likes the sound because was a DULL sound with out LIFE. He was missing, with out been aware, the Jantzen developed high distortions. Other gentlemans that already experienced the Wima supported that DULL sound and obviously all of them just do not like the natura/neutral color of live MUSIC but like high colored sound just like many of you including Mike Lavigne.

Is it my system a DULL syatem? no but the other way around and with very very low system noise floor.

Another experience was and is when I changed the SPL attenuators in my Essential SS Phonolinepreamp where those Swiss made attenuators mechanism were builded with true hole resistors where the signal pass through only one of those resistors at each SPL positions. Well, I changed both stereo pots ( my unit is dual mono fully balanced. ) by same mechanism but with SMD resistors and guess what?:

the difference was night and day and was nigth and day inside in a very high resolution system. Here the system noise floor that was truly low gone and goes even lower, just amazing when distortions goes out of each single link in any room/system chain.

Yes, now I can listen my system with higher SPL with out feeling that my ears are damage in any way, of course that I don’t listen to very high SPL.

 

All those experiences were posted more than once in the forum. So the gentlemans that insist in that I have to listen the Dava I will not because I already know that is full of developed distortions.

My speakers are 95db sensitivity level and attenuators fully opened I can put my ear at 2cm. from the tweeters and I can't listen nothing , no single sound/noise.

 

All these kind of experiences are the ones that permit me to said @mikelavigne that his Dart meter peacks with the cartridge that were 95db against only 40db with the digital medium were only heavy distortions that he likes a lot against digital in the Dizzy 4 LP.

 

That’s why I alway finish my posts with this:

 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

 

 

Btw, I posted in this thread these on digital against LP:

 

""  

 The deep main reason is that: we are accustomed to those LP sound along its developed distortions.

When appeared the CD as even today we " like it " but do not " like it ", we always have an argument against digital even arguments that are totally false.

We refused and refuse to really think deep down there and ask our self: what are we missing with digital medium? because this is the issue. Here M Lavigne posted that LP is " complete " and obviously and against digital this medium is incomplete.

My take is that all of us are missing through digital medium ALL THE ADDED DISTORTIONS DEVELOPED THROUGH THE RECORDING AND PLAYBACK PROCCESS .

Our brain knows something is " different " down there: way lower distortions with digital.

 

R.

This is an instance where the necessary aspects of the AES48 can exist at the source and the load but in order to operate 'properly' the interface cabling must also be done to the standard (twisted pair with a shield) and I have only experienced a few cases where using this interface worked the same or better than the 'conventional' method.  

@intactaudio 

You may have misinterpreted my post.

I use the word symmetrical deliberately rather than the word balanced. Mikes phono cables are single ended. I believe through both listening experience and electrical theory that the cable loom between the MC and SUT should be symmetrical in construct.

This is my issue - quote from WBF on the LFD phono cables

The hot and the cold conductors are totally different from each other which is used to enhance the sound quality. This cable can be exclusively voiced to suit various systems RRP £16995.

Why an asymmetrical construct for a  symmetrical source and destination. Its like having a highway with 4 lanes going north and a B road going south. What is the science here ? How is there a benefit from loading +ve and -ve legs on the MC differently.

Voiced ? really, 16000 uk pounds for "voiced".

Do we want Freddy Mercury on helium, do we want Beyonce's lower treble whine that gets removed on the mixing desk to be accentuated, who decides what voice to present when manipulating these wires ?

All cables degrade the signal, no exceptions. Best cable is no cable.

Next best is the one that does the least damage to the signal.

Unfortunately in audio the least damaging would be one designed and built specifically for the source and destination components actually used, and backed up by measurement . In fact MIT used to offer this service many years ago - if you provided them the components they could measure them and build the optimum cable loom.

I know I could improve the $16k LFD cables audibly just by removing the plastic shroud for starters, getting rid of the heavy metal connectors and baubles and other jewellery hanging off of these wires.

Anyone out there can prove this easily - if they have speaker cables with plastic/polyproylene shroud - cut the plastic shroud off and listen. Those gaudy multicoloured plastic shrouds do a lot of damage to the signal, as do oversized heavy metal connectors. This is just for starters. Even heat shrink can degrade the signal.

My reference phono cable is around $20k US. It is not the price I have issues with, its the asymmetrical construct of the cable in this application. along with no explanation of the science other than - its a mixed bag of lollies, carefully selected after 30 years of eating lollies. Oh and if you have a favourite lolly I can mix a new bag of lollies with your favourites included.

Compare this LFD scenario to a friend who designed and built his own speakers amps etc.

One day I found he had some new speaker cables that he had constructed - the positive and negative legs were asymmetrical. I asked him what was the science.

He gave me an answer that included 2 points -

The +ve and -ve speaker cables were designed as part of the crossover and built/measured so that each of the speaker drivers saw the precise loads and crossover slopes he intended.

Secondly he explained that relative to the incoming power from the mains the +ve speaker wire was on one side of the mains transformer and the -ve speaker wire was on the other side directly connected to the mains. Ask @atmasphere about finding the centre point of a mains transformer.

That is what I call science, not I tried some wire and found one that sounds good.

 

 

 

 

If SQ is perceived as poor, increasing SPL makes mediocre SQ less tolerable, in my experience.

Bang on.

And it could be distortions from the system or components, or room itself that is the issue.

In some cases the listeners ears.

If you ask an audiologist you would be surprised at how non linear most folks hearing is, and of course often times people are unaware of hearing damage that may be sensitive to certain frequencies.

In relation to the reference to a db metre used.

These occurrences when arranged are purely Social Activities and used to extend a selection of individuals encounters and experiences, it is all done under the guise of Good Company, Good Food and Good Music, note Music is the least of the importance on a day like this, friends catching up is the fundamental goal. 

Attendees bring along their own Vinyl LP's as part of having a range of familiar materials being presented during an assessment of items put forward to be experienced where a common interest is shared.

Individuals I know, enjoy the occasional opportunity to measure a choice made for an item in comparison to an alternative item.

Individuals are also keen to hear their donated LP for the occasion at a SPL the are quite familiar with, when not experiencing it at such a level, there can be a settlement period to adapt.

 The db metre in use is not a scientific tool, it is basically a tool, to show to all attendees, the presentations are near parity in the SPL during a demonstration.

As said, ' Only when all is done and dusted in the comparisons, will the listeners ask to hear a replay of choice at a level they are accustomed to '.   

There will not be any items exchanged for assessment at this stage, but a curiosity might need to be nurtured if an item that is not familiar has impressed and is wanted to be experienced in use that is in keeping with one's usual practices.

If we as a group, were all to agree to add a period to see who could supply the best comedy, I will be the first to suggest that the methodology in use is not fair, and we hook up an oscilloscope, obviously, this will need to be immediately followed by passing the Tissues to assist with the Mopping Up the Eyes Streaming Tears, as a result of the fits of laughter. 

@rauliruegas 

I was banned not only one but twice from that forum

now i remember why i should not post here or attempt to interact with you. 

note to self; don't take the bait again.🙄

@dover 

I use the word symmetrical deliberately rather than the word balanced.

Ahhh... point taken.  If the SUT were truly symmetrical as you state then one could reverse the polarity of the primary and net the exact same frequency response at the secondary.  Some SUT's behave better than others in this manner but one polarity will always measure 'different' than the other.  As for the cartridge we already have the interesting wrinkle that by necessity the L & R coils are out of polarity with each other so this is a much grayer area.  In both cases I would expect these to be far easier to observe phenomena than the behavior of a symmetrical vs. asymmetrical cable.  It is important to note that jut because phenomena are measurable in the real or theoretical world doesn't equate to them being meaningful.

dave

 

When someone gets banned twice and still feels it is the forum's fault I believe I might be justified in thinking that is a red flag.

With respect to my comment that feeling the need to turn the volume up is an indication that there is something wrong in the reproduction chain, I confess I heard that repeated many times by the sages at the Canadian UHF Magazine, which is now pretty much defunct. In its day (1982 - originally as Hi-Fi Sound magazine - up to cessation of the print version after issue #97). It was an unusual magazine in that it would not review a product that was not up to snuff, and was honest about those it did. They did not lead me astray.

@mijostyn 

In order to fool the human ear you only need a 0.3 dB difference in volume.

do you have a reference on this?  I know the origin of the decibel scale is based on 1dB being the smallest difference in level detectable by the average person.  In system I find a overall level change of 1dB to be quite subtle and that is the topic at hand.  When dealing with specific frequency ranges (crossovers) smaller changes are audible if you know what to listen for and when it comes to soundstage a 1dB change in one channel (ie balance) also is easy to hear.  It has also been argued that the entire concept of level matching and ABX testing is pointless since due to comb filtering, small changes in listening position can dominate the listening experience. (i can't dig up my reference article on this one so a pointer will save a lot of google work) 

 

dave

@mijostyn Where did you get this info from? I’ve 4 Decca cartridges and they are incredibly robust in that there’s no cantilever to get destroyed in an accident. They all track splendidly although they can be susceptible to noise from unclean vinyl.
+1 ​@dogberry 

"The Decca London Reference is an awful cartridge. It is a terrible tracker and very unreliable."

 

 

@mikelavigne , in both times there were gentlemans that " encourage " me to follow posting in the way I did and do with first hand experiences , facts and some " science " and obviously no applauses when some one posted no sense subjective issues, Just like in this thread, I don’t gave you any congratulations ( as all the wbf " friends " of you. ) because it’s not nothing that you did or do it in your room system. You did not improved but merely walked 3-4 steps down the quality system ladder.

The responsability of any good friend is to give advise and warnings on those audio system issues. Your audio " friends " where you are really happy with them only " encouraje " you to follow in the same wrong road and this is what you don’t like because you are in the last 2-3 years accustomed only to applauses/congratulations and any Agoner can confirm what I’m posting here only reading the wbf thread you linked or any other of your threads there.

Before the manufacturer disclosed the cartridge FR spec I told you founding in your posts that something was wrong with but what you posted here and in wbf made that an Agoner pulled the triger for that cartridge and he did it because your posts and he does not took in count the warnings and fact posted here against that cartridge. Do you help that OP? certainly not and I’m sorry for him.

 

" why i should not post here or attempt to interact with you..."

 

Mike, sorry but it’s not interact with me it’s interact with the true reality that just you and many other gentlemans just do not likes. @dover is direct as me and you don’t feel the same " interact ", you can read his post in this thread.

The wbf changed you and not for the better.

 

Btw, one of those wbf that encourage me to follow posting in the same way is

bazelio and his words are down there as like the words of the other gentlemans that like it no applauses if there is nothing to applause. Yes, my styles is way different to the one in wbf .

But here exist a fact: you don’t tell us and telling me what of all what I posted is totally wrong with the explanation/facts where you found it about. I know you have no facts for that or you cdid not wanted to do it.

 

Even if you do not cosidere any more to ineract with me or to " think " I’m an audio friend I still cosider you as that.

 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

@intactaudio I own and in the past have used a Autoformer of your design during comparisons sessions.

I found the gathering of pre knowledge of the sound level difference of components and the recording the Clockwise/Anticlockwise clicks to work as an easy method for presenting different components in a very close sound level 'to my perception' using the 1.25 db steps as a fine tune.

On occasions, guests would be party to comparisons, I have no recollection of anybody requesting the pre-selected levels needing to be tweaked. 

Not at any time do I recall needing to use the other option available to myself to complete a fine tune.  

1db as a description does sound like an accurate increment for my ears, my system and in my listening environment.

Dear @mijostyn  : " In order to fool the human ear you only need a 0.3 dB difference in volume.  "

 

You posted the statement as is a " rule " or a measured standard and can't be a rule due to so many variables down there:

- first is that no one has mated ears with the same sensitivity, FR at the same frequency range deviations, almost nothing inside both ears are exactly the same.

-  second, the speakers normally are not exactly mated with the need it accuracy for their sound couldbe " leveled ".

- third, your electronics neither and niether the system cables. Time to time I make a check up in my monobloks about: output levels, bias and FR. Even in my phonolinepreamp the the attenuators with SMD resistors are extremely close in its " linearity " but not exactly.

- you can have mated speakers/cables and electronics but you need along those that the whole audio system have very high resolution and very low noise levels.

- four, you need exactly what to look for in the tracks that you are using for those comparisons ( for years  I always use same tracks in the LPs and at same SPL and seated at near field position. You need to know exactly how is the sound of those choosed LP tracks: knowing it as the fingers of your hands.

- the db levels where we can be foolished depends of what we are trying to " measure ".

 

It's not easy to have a general rule with. In my examples/first hand experiences where I learned about detection of distortions that " dull " sound makes me to ask for a little high SPL for the " life come on " but I never did it because I learned it's not necessary to disappears that " dull " /"low SPL" modifiying the attenuators position.

 

Yes maybe we can detect 0.3db deviations but not always because depends directly of what we are " measuring " through our imperfect ears and imperfect system. In other cases maybe we need over 1db deviation to been aware of it.

 

Maybe theory is what you posted but is different for any one of us. Normally all of us should detect more or less easy sound in the midrange frequency range but not so easy at both frequency extremes that in reality is what matters the more.

 

Well that's my take about.

 

R.

 

Actually, if you look at Mijostyn's syntax, he is not wrong: " In order to fool the human ear you only need a 0.3 dB difference in volume.  "

Literally, this could be construed to mean that, because the human ear canNOT distinguish an SPL difference of 0.3db (because, as Intact Audio stated, 1db is by definition the smallest difference in SPL that can be distinguished by the human ear) then we CAN be fooled by a difference of only 0.3db into thinking there is no difference in SPL between the two respective sources.

@noromance , either you are a master at caring for your equipment or the people I know who have or have had Deccas are incredibly ham fisted. I have personally heard them miss track on material other cartridges handled effortlessly. I was never enamored by the SQ but I never did have one in my own system. At this point I would never recommend anyone get one unless they really did not care about throwing their money away.

@lewm , thank you and you are right. No human ear I know of can reliably call 0.3dB a change of volume but it can trick the ear into thinking a version sounds better.  Using channel balance as a gauge a 0.3 dB change will make a noticeable shift in the center image easily noticed by anyone. Having a digital volume control with resolution down to 0.1 dB I can demonstrate this to anyone. You would not notice it as a volume change just a shift in the center image. 

@rauliruegas , As with any generalization there are always ways to fail but as a useful rule If I increase the volume of one of two exactly identical passages 0.3 dB casual listeners will think the louder version sounds better without noticing the increase in volume. I know this because I make this demonstration all the time. I have a digital volume control with resolution down to 0.1 dB.  If you are doing this in real time on the same system all that other stuff you mention cancels out. everything you say is true but it is all easy to factor out of the equation. 

@intactaudio , it really depends on how you are listening to the volume. If you are just paying attention to a system's volume level then 1dB is a just noticeable difference but if you are listening in a comparative way as you are when listening to channel balance 1 dB is very noticeable and will cause a distinct shift in the center image. This also explains why some systems image poorly. The two channels have to have identical frequency response curves. If one channel is plus or minus a dB here or there the image blurs like an out of focus picture. The same speaker in two different locations will have two different response curves. Variances of 3-5 dB between channels at specific frequencies is common. I have seen upwards of 10 dB!

Have you questioned the calibration of your digital attenuators?

@mikelavigne, sorry about your decision to no longer post and I hope that it applies to this thread only.  Your comments are always appreciated. I respect and enjoy your approach to this hobby with its emphasis on trusting one’s ears.  I understand your reaction to the heavy handed style of some and have to wonder if the rigidity in their approach to this hobby kills the fun and and wonder of the music listening experience.  Listening to music is not a technical exercise.  

@lewm , Digital volume is very specific. 0 dB (0 dBFS) is the highest level achievable in a WAV audio file.  Digital volume controls are based on that standard. I have three independent ways of adjusting my gain structure and they all agree with each other perfectly as you would expect. In referring to dB most people are thinking of dB SPL. Where 0 dB is "the sound of a dead leaf hitting the ground in the fall." Anything quieter would be imperceptible. When I talk about how loud my system is playing I am referring to dB SPL as measured by a sound pressure level meter that in all likelihood is not very accurate.  When talking about signal volume I am referring to dBFS (decibels full scale)  I probably should have mentioned this earlier to get everyone on the same page. 

Another issue that frequently comes up is that digital volume controls "are inferior." This was true not all that long ago but now with 64 bit floating point processors the problems related to digital volume control such as loss of dynamic range have totally disappeared. You could lose over 1/2 the data and still be well above the highest sampling rates used.

As @rauliruegas will testify, digital audio opens up a whole new world of possibilities when it comes to system management and understanding. 

@mijostyn That's fine by me. But do you really think I'm going to sit there and listen to 4 mistracking cartridges for 35 years? I will admit that I had one in a LP12/Ittok back in the 80s and it did mistrack. Perhaps your impression comes from that sort of mismatch. It's easy to carry a misconception based on legacy intel. However, I do not have that issue now and the speed, realism, and clarity of these cartridges can be breath-taking.

@mikelavigne Don't go! 🙂 One cannot allow blowhards to force capitulation. 

The Decca cartridges are something special.  My experience has been that even the “lowly” Decca London conveyed certain aspects of musical sound with a realism that no other cartridge I have owned could.  

Dear @mijostyn  : " channel balance as a gauge a 0.3 dB change will make a noticeable shift in the center image easily noticed by anyone. "

 

You are totally rigth and it does not need to be 0.3db but even 0.1db is noted.

 

My room/system image is dead centered and sometimes ( for several different reasons. ) that    " dead centered " shift an almost imperceptible to one side and that tell me that something is wrong down my system other that the LP recording that sometimes image is tiny shifted . 

Then that " shift " help me to make a check up to fix it and always with success due that I know very well my system links and nok where looking for.

 

@noromance  , tracking issues not only happens at macroscopic level where you listen to it but at microscopic levels too and cantilever-less cartridge designs have that microscopic issue at higher levels even that you are not aware of it and that higher tracking micro issue modulates/colored what we are listening. You can read here about:

 

http://pspatialaudio.com/analogy.htm

 

Now, I owned at least two cantilever-less Ikeda cartridges and yes some characteristics of the reproduction sound is just unique like its alivness and immediacy of the MUSIC  due that transients are faster than in a normal cartridge designs but as any audio subjects all has its trade-offs and each one of us choose the personal best trade-offs to achieve our targets. I sold the Ikeda's that just can't fulfill my targets and that's it.

 

R.

Dear @frogman : As Mike, you know that respect you and appreciate you.

 

" reaction to the heavy handed style of some and have to wonder if the rigidity in their approach to this hobby kills the fun ............................................................................... Listening to music is not a technical exercise. "

 

I think that in this thread and almost all threads where I posted and post exist a sever misunderstood that I want to clarify even that I did it and posted in the past.

 

As other gentlemans @mikelavigne took my posts as a PERSONAL ATTACK even that I told him 4 times in the thread that the main subject was not what he likes ( that’s not under questioning and I did not with any other gentleman. ) but WHAT IS WRONG OR RIGTH but not only Mike but other audiophiles took and take my posts as a PERSONAL issue when IT’S NOT that way. I have not with any of you that kind of ATTITUDE no MATER WHAT and does not matters that looks like that because it’s not.

 

What I did and do is to share experiences and " facts " not to questioning you of what you like but more like a WARNING that at the end is up to you.

I think that almost nothing I shared to Mike is false, you can read here again and in wbf too. I always make a " research " to have first hand knowledge of what I will post. I don’t post if I have not a good founded facts.

In the other side, you posted:

 

" Listening to music is not a technical exercise. "

 

I agree with that statement but thing are that that experience normally is full of technical issue before you can listening.

You can have your targets to enjoy your listening sessions, are your PERSONAL targets: full of subjectivity, objectivity or hybrid, it does not matters.

 

My common sense and for many years told me and tells me that to reproduce and enjoy the MORE the system reproduced MUSIC the only and main TARGET ( my target, not yours. ) is try to stay TRUER TO THE RECORDING or at least the nearest you can and to fulfill my target I need to put at MINIMUM all developed/added room/system: COLORATIONS/MODULATIONS/DISTORTIONS at each single link in room/system chain. To achieve that you not only need some $$$ but more critical an important that that is to have the " rigth " KNOWLEDE and SKILLS LEVELS: this is the true name of the game and what we like is only a consequence/result of those levels.

Doing that is the way I really can not only be truer to the recording but the best way to ENJOY MUSIC sessions in my system. Specs and technical knowledge and skills are all down there and in your system too.

 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

Dear @rauliruegas,

I have been a member here for many years and have learned the hard way that it is often best to not engage in one-one dialogue when there is obvious and strong disagreement. I prefer to simply put my opinions out there and anyone can make of them what they will. You have addressed me directly for the third time (I think) on this thread, so out of respect for you I will make an exception; and thank you for your thoughts. Please understand that I may or may not respond further.

Raul, I am not in the psychology business. I normally do not “talk” about my professional life on this or any forum as I don’t want my opinions to be construed as self serving in any way.  I am a professional musician by trade and have done nothing else for my entire working life; forty five years now. My performance experience is and has been overwhelmingly in the live acoustic music, mostly orchestral, scenes. I am and have been around the sound of live acoustic music, at minimum, an average of probably four hours each and every day, I know and am confident in what I hear. Replicating that sound as much as possible is my personal goal with audio. My familiarity with that sound is what drives my choices of gear. I bring this up because you and I don’t agree on some audio related issues, the analog/digital, the tube/ss debates and the subjective/objective issues in particular. I believe you know where I stand on those. The “psychology” part:

Although you actually seem to have softened your stance somewhat, the problem as I see it, and what prompted part of my “heavy handed” comment, is that while you do (more so recently) concede that everyone is entitled to like whatever type of sound they may prefer (duh!), your comments usually also include, or are followed by something along the lines of “(yes, everyone can like whatever sound they like), IF they like distortions”. Forgive the paraphrasing. IOW, yes, we can all listen to whatever sound we prefer, BUT Raul knows what a good (accurate) sound truly is. “Respect” has to include at least a modicum of humility.

I won’t question what you hear and how, and based on what, you make those determinations. I know you have a great deal of experience as an audiophile and would not question your preferences. However, from my vantage point, they are still preferences and not absolutes. Neither are my preferences absolutes for everyone. They are absolutes FOR ME and if anyone wants to derive some kernel of truth from them that’s great; if not, that’s fine too.

Enjoy the music. (I will leave the “not distortions” part out. Perhaps you should consider doing the same?

Saludos..

 

 

 

@mikelavigne Audiogon does not have an 'ignore' button, so you have to do that manually. In this case your enjoyment of this thread would likely be improved if certain individuals were put on 'ignore'. I hope I'm not one of those 😉

@frogman 

I know and am confident in what I hear.

well put!  I often find that those who rely heavily on the objective are incapable / uncomfortable forming a consistent subjective opinion.  I am by no means suggesting that the objective has no place in audio.  I feel that the best use of theory and measurement is to help explain what we actually like rather than as a tool to dictate what we should like.

dave

 

Dear @frogman : Thank’s for your post, appreciated.

 

" BUT Raul knows what a good (accurate) sound truly is. "

 

That is part of the whole misunderstood because it’s not about me, yes I post what my researh on the post of any gentleman and my common sense tells me.

 

Again, what I post are only the " facts " I found out respect the issues under discussions and that’s all. Like in this thread normally I post: " I’m not saying I’m rigth " or " I can be wrong ". Everything in my posts is up to you, nothing personal and obviously not " because I know/Bible about.

Dear Agoner’s, as I already posted before I post always made and make a deep research to at least know: the way of thinking of the gentleman, what he likes, which room/system owns, etc, etc and to find out all those and more information I read not only his threads if any but his answers he posted through the time.

 

Any one of you can be sure I really make my job and in the Mike case I had to read several threads post pages ( over 300 ).additional in wbf and that’s why I posted what I posted to warning him.

From where do you think I posted that: " analog complete and his contradiction about what he posted in Agon digital forum about that I posted in this thread?"

You already know that I knew you are a musician and fortunatelly you are not the subject in this thread.

 

Do you think that for any one is easy to say to a gentleman of the MIke caliber: what you are listening is totally wrong?, I did it because I have/found out EVIDENCE that no one of you questioned and he neither in all what I posted and when I made the mistake to post that that cartridge was cantilever-less design at the moment that I took in count I’m wrong I posted that I was wrong and my mistake.

 

I took all that time because for to many years to remember he is an audio friend for me.

 

R.

 

Btw, other than @jcarr  seller opinions as twose two I don't take care. Useless and only looking $$$$ and Mike has that part of the $$$ they are looking for but this does not justify their " attitude ".

@noromance , Please and really, I do not mean this as a reflection of you but I have seen people tolerate a lot worse! Any cartridge will track at 10 grams. Don't you remember the days when we put a penny on top of the head shell?

@rauliruegas , I was being generous. 

My room is also dead centered and I am forever adjusting my balance. Every record is different. Most of the time it is just a sensation of too much energy coming from one side. The singer's voice will still seem dead center. Just a shift of 0.1 to 0.2 dB to one side will take care of it. Yes, I also can usually tell up front how much it will take. I think the problem is that every system is that much different. Maybe one speaker or monitor is just that much more efficient than the other. The best adjusted systems in the world are at best 0.1 to 0.2 dB off center. Anyway, this is what remotes are for:-)

I would like to straighten the record a little. Listening to and enjoying music is a passive luxury. Building a state of the art music system is an active necessity. They are two very different activities. There are chat rooms and one location at this one where you can gush over the music. Here we split hairs over Hi Fi equipment. There are many ways to approach this subject and disagreement is a way of life in any human interaction. If you can't take the heat go fishing.

 

Absolutely true that there are many ways to approach this subject and one of those ways is never losing sight of the importance (for some) of NOT separating the act of music listening from the process of building a system. To do so is an approach that strikes me as wrong headed. A system cannot be SOTA if it doesn’t do a good job of honoring the music. It may be SOTA on paper, but so what?

i guess one man’s perspective of listening opinions not being respected, is another man’s delight over splitting hairs over hifi equipment.

so time for me to go fishing. or......be where my listening opinions are more respected. the balance here is just not for me. not really that big a deal. posters here don’t need to know my opinions about gear they mostly have never heard. here it’s more about the trees, i’m a forest guy.

why should i be where i’m mostly a target since i bring listening opinions that are then attacked to feed the hair splitting? does not make sense....to me.

btw, it’s possible to split hairs and also respect listening perspectives. but here it does not commonly happen. the hair splitting gets focused on attacking the listening opinion credibility, especially at higher priced gear. the balance is a forum culture question.

Personally, I think this forum needs more voices like yours. I hope you reconsider.