What is the “World’s Best Cartridge”?

Dear @mijostyn  : I know that rigth now you are enttilted with the very low impedance cartridges and current mode phonolinepreamps and that you really like your MSL.

 

Things are and I could think you already " hear "/read about  Top Wing cartridges that time to time few audiophiles posted about in Agon and I just remember it and maybe is " your " time to listen it, maybe not is up to you.

Here two reviews and somewhere I read that outperforms MSL: who really knows?. First the top of the line and then the next down step:

 

 

 

 

Dear @daveyf  : I think that the dealers/distributors need to ask the cartridge manufacturers for some kind of $upportfor have 2-3 cartridge demo samples depending where the dealer cities whre they have the store.

I think that that kind of effort could be a shared distributor/manufacturer  " couple ".

 

R.

Dear @newtoncr : Good for your link. Unfortunatelly it did not says something way different of what already was analised in this thread with MLavigne ( you can read in this thread from page 7..) and adds other no sense ( for me ) subjective issues.

 

" dava seems to check the most boxes. "

with out objective merits because its high FR response that’s what that gentleman listened and not awared of it. Even that a welcomed information.

 

Anyway thank’s.

 

R.

@mijostyn  : I think that both cartridges performs at the same quality level where differences could comes by MSL designer MUSIC preferences against AT vocing preferences.

Maybe the main true difference is that MSL has low price.

 

R.

Dear @mijostyn  : Yes, boron. An eropean  owner of the OPUS 1 posted this:

 

" Italian distributor of Air tight told me Opus 1 could be better than MSL platinum because being 30 anniversary of Air Tight they ask to do something very special,while MSL platinum change only the body and the stylus,but until you don't listen both nobody knows.

This opus 1 has an incredible bass and body,very clean,fast and deep and i think ..."

 

He listen in his CH current mode unit.

 

R.

@mijostyn  : Year ago I listened in an audio friend the Opus and in those times was the top of the line AT model and very good performer and competitive with all top cartridges out there.

As you said your MSL could be the MSL version of the Opus. At least with a new cantilever build material: boron because the Opus came with :

" semi-line contact stylus with a 0.1mm square tip, an ultra-hard duralmin cantilever "

Good that the cartridge is fulfilling your main targets.

 

T.

Dear @mijostyn  : I never had the opportunity to listen your MSL cartridge but I owned two of what I think is around best best cartridges design that Matshudira made, I'm refering to the Luxman  LMC-1 and the Supex SDX-1100R.

Both are very low output: 0.1mv for the Lux and 0.2mv for the Sup and in both obviously that with that output levels the internal impedance in the order of 1.5ohms-3ohm.

The stylus shape were hiper-ellipthical and that today not line contact- Sup with ruby cantilever and I can't remmeber the one in the Lux.

Both cartridges tracking very well and with low weigth for a LOMC cartridges: 5grs.-6grs respectively.

Very good experiences with and I regret to sold the Luxman.

 

R.

@mikelavigne : " attacking the listening opinion credibility, "

 

Look, my opinion about is that CREDIBILITY can’t be attacked by any one .

Credibility of each one of us in this forum or other internet audio forums is a RESULT of each one of us knowledge/skills/first hand experiences levels.

The credibility/that knoledge levels of any one of us is different because our knowledge levels on specific audio issues could be good one but in many others audio issues is to low knowledge levels. No one knows everything about every audio whole subjects.

So, we are the ones that could " attack " our self when expose our knoledge level in a specific issue where we are not very good and all the time we are exposing that credibility through any single post we write where we show our knowledge level.

Every day is a learning one . As we posted the more our self credibility is too more exposed or in " danger ".

 

Always are several audiophiles that in some specific MUSIC/audio areas are and have way higher knowledge levels that you or me and to take advantage of their knowledge and skills we have to have an unbiased attitude with a wide open mind.

In certain and specific audio subjects my knowledge levels improved thank’s to read the posts of those better knowledge audiophiles even if as some of them in this forum post things like: " that’s totally false " or " you are way wrong ": well I accepted that if they gave me the explanation about and you know what: i learned and improve that way my knowledge level in that specific issues.

I already told you that in any discussion and depending of each one attitude the game is: win to win . In this " game " there is no place to feelings that I was defeated by.... or they are attacking me......To avoid that we can have our self blog, no I don't do it that way because I like to learn.

That’s my overall way of thinking, problem could be that I’m not polite mainly for my bad english where the words meaning to me are different to other gentlemans meaning.

What’s true in that " no polite " is that if my common sense and knowledge tells me that something is " black " I just can’t post that’s is " grey " or " brown ".

I try not post in threads where in the audio subjects my knowledge levels are to low or totally new for me, so I learn just reading to or I make several questions about till I understand the whole subject. I win with this kind of " actions ".

I don't care about my credibility because this human been characteristic depends only of me.

R.

Dear @mikelavigne : Where really started this " unfortunated " hot discussion?

 

For me started when you share your opinion /first hand experiences with the Dava cartridge :

 

" DaVa is electric! alive! nothing lean, or or clinical. projects lots of energy. harmonically rich timbre and textures. robust bass. "

Next to your post @mijostyn posted:

 

" Another point that I would like to make is that you have to be very suspicious of any component that stands out sonically in dramatic fashion. It is likely to be very colored, not realistic but surrealistic. "

 

from there the gentleman that post that you can click the " ignore " button posted:

 

" adding the wires needed to power the field coil. They would have to stiffen up the arm since they would have to travel past/thru its bearings. That would introduce a variable ...."

 

after that I posted ( ( other that my cantilever-less mistake posts. ) :

 

" All what surrounds the DaVa including your personal experienced opinion makes me to think for sure ( even that I did not listen to it. ) that that cartridge has to many " errors " around .

Come on Mike, I can’t find out any where the basic cartridge specs. Have you? could you share with all of us? "

followed by:

 

" and ask Darius for the cartridge specs. All in these forum and in all internet forums want to know about. So and as always your help and advise is welcomed for the audio community every where. "

 

followed by:

 

" I was reading word by word of my posts referenced to you and in no one I posted nothing against or qquestioning you what you like it because it’s a personal opinion your opinion of what YOU like and no one can question it.

Even my first post was a " congratulations " for the two new cartridges for the OP and even that I questioned rhe DaVa cartridge and explained the why’s ( btw, a DaVa owner posted that the SS power supply is better and that opinion goes against your friend that said tubes ps is better. ) about I gave its welcome to our high end community. I’m still looking else where for its specs with no luck yet. It’s weird that even Agoners in this thread not cared about especially with a " new kid of the ... ".

 

 

then you posted ( btw, in between all these important posts were the digital vs analog endless discussion and R2R too. ) :

 

" i listen to Dizzy Gillespie’s Big 4 lp pressing on the DaVa Reference cartridge. then listen to a digital transfer.

with the Lp Dizzy’s trumpet hits 95 watt peaks on my dart 468 monoblocks. at the same SPL’s the digital hits 45 watt peaks. the DaVa also sounds more real and life like....but that is subjective, the peak watts are an objective measurement of signal energy.

i can cite many similar occurrences.

btw; the DaVa also surpasses other cartridges too, but not nearly by as much. just more energy.

i love digital. but it cannot do some things analog can do. it smears peaks "

 

I gave you this answer:

 

" That’s can confirm what I said about " higher distortions " during LP tracking. That signal energy with the cartridge came with way higher distortions NOT musical information and distortons counts for those higher SPL high peacks. Yes, you love those distortions ( even you posted before an in ironic or not so ironic way that " like the distortions ". I could add that any one of us like some kind of distortions because nothing is perfect and we love our each ones choosed trade-offs. ).

From there you conclude that digital " smears peacks " and truly your conclusion makes no sense . "

 

Why I posted " makes no sense " : because had not a true foundation but only a cartridge design ERRORS.

 

your post and mine came before Darius disclosed the specs that confirm those distortions but not exactly by cartridge tracking but for even a more severe real fact: a 6db cartridge FR deviation..

 

After all those in my research I found out the facts you posted in wbf and that any one can read.

The facts that you posted showed your preference for that " long road to San Francisco " with all those " cables/joints between the tonearm output through the line level input in the Dartzeel.

I posted that that " long road..." is the wrong road/path for the cartridge signal and gave you all the evidence and true facts why the better cartridge path is a direct one cable from the tonearm output to the phonolinepreamp Dartzeel input. In this sole issue I did not question you why you prefer the " long road " to the direct signal path and I add that at least ( as with the Dava cartridge ) ask for the that tube inverse RIAA eq. deviaiton alond the measures that support the spec and the noise level of that unit and I’m sure that even today you don’t have yet in hand those information as no one other owners of the same unit: this is not your fault and I did not blame you for that but a deep critic to the manufactures irresponsability about: same as Darius and LFD cables manufacturer.

What of all those information posted here is disrespectful with you or what you like?

The heavy and hot disagreement belongs to a different common sense level between you and me: long road vs short path. That’s it and of course Dava high deviation.

As any discussion here there is no winner or beated gentleman but all of us are winners because some of us confirmed through the discussion each one experiences and others because learned about unknow audio products or audio subjects. Don’t you think?

R.

 

Btw, I never listened the Dava or those SUTs or that tube RIAA eq. but I do listened the Dartzeel and and the Evolution middle line speaker that shares the same ribbon and ceramic drivers  that your top of the line model.

 

 

Dear @frogman : Thank’s for your post, appreciated.

 

" BUT Raul knows what a good (accurate) sound truly is. "

 

That is part of the whole misunderstood because it’s not about me, yes I post what my researh on the post of any gentleman and my common sense tells me.

 

Again, what I post are only the " facts " I found out respect the issues under discussions and that’s all. Like in this thread normally I post: " I’m not saying I’m rigth " or " I can be wrong ". Everything in my posts is up to you, nothing personal and obviously not " because I know/Bible about.

Dear Agoner’s, as I already posted before I post always made and make a deep research to at least know: the way of thinking of the gentleman, what he likes, which room/system owns, etc, etc and to find out all those and more information I read not only his threads if any but his answers he posted through the time.

 

Any one of you can be sure I really make my job and in the Mike case I had to read several threads post pages ( over 300 ).additional in wbf and that’s why I posted what I posted to warning him.

From where do you think I posted that: " analog complete and his contradiction about what he posted in Agon digital forum about that I posted in this thread?"

You already know that I knew you are a musician and fortunatelly you are not the subject in this thread.

 

Do you think that for any one is easy to say to a gentleman of the MIke caliber: what you are listening is totally wrong?, I did it because I have/found out EVIDENCE that no one of you questioned and he neither in all what I posted and when I made the mistake to post that that cartridge was cantilever-less design at the moment that I took in count I’m wrong I posted that I was wrong and my mistake.

 

I took all that time because for to many years to remember he is an audio friend for me.

 

R.

 

Btw, other than @jcarr  seller opinions as twose two I don't take care. Useless and only looking $$$$ and Mike has that part of the $$$ they are looking for but this does not justify their " attitude ".

Dear @frogman : As Mike, you know that respect you and appreciate you.

 

" reaction to the heavy handed style of some and have to wonder if the rigidity in their approach to this hobby kills the fun ............................................................................... Listening to music is not a technical exercise. "

 

I think that in this thread and almost all threads where I posted and post exist a sever misunderstood that I want to clarify even that I did it and posted in the past.

 

As other gentlemans @mikelavigne took my posts as a PERSONAL ATTACK even that I told him 4 times in the thread that the main subject was not what he likes ( that’s not under questioning and I did not with any other gentleman. ) but WHAT IS WRONG OR RIGTH but not only Mike but other audiophiles took and take my posts as a PERSONAL issue when IT’S NOT that way. I have not with any of you that kind of ATTITUDE no MATER WHAT and does not matters that looks like that because it’s not.

 

What I did and do is to share experiences and " facts " not to questioning you of what you like but more like a WARNING that at the end is up to you.

I think that almost nothing I shared to Mike is false, you can read here again and in wbf too. I always make a " research " to have first hand knowledge of what I will post. I don’t post if I have not a good founded facts.

In the other side, you posted:

 

" Listening to music is not a technical exercise. "

 

I agree with that statement but thing are that that experience normally is full of technical issue before you can listening.

You can have your targets to enjoy your listening sessions, are your PERSONAL targets: full of subjectivity, objectivity or hybrid, it does not matters.

 

My common sense and for many years told me and tells me that to reproduce and enjoy the MORE the system reproduced MUSIC the only and main TARGET ( my target, not yours. ) is try to stay TRUER TO THE RECORDING or at least the nearest you can and to fulfill my target I need to put at MINIMUM all developed/added room/system: COLORATIONS/MODULATIONS/DISTORTIONS at each single link in room/system chain. To achieve that you not only need some $$$ but more critical an important that that is to have the " rigth " KNOWLEDE and SKILLS LEVELS: this is the true name of the game and what we like is only a consequence/result of those levels.

Doing that is the way I really can not only be truer to the recording but the best way to ENJOY MUSIC sessions in my system. Specs and technical knowledge and skills are all down there and in your system too.

 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

Dear @mijostyn  : " channel balance as a gauge a 0.3 dB change will make a noticeable shift in the center image easily noticed by anyone. "

 

You are totally rigth and it does not need to be 0.3db but even 0.1db is noted.

 

My room/system image is dead centered and sometimes ( for several different reasons. ) that    " dead centered " shift an almost imperceptible to one side and that tell me that something is wrong down my system other that the LP recording that sometimes image is tiny shifted . 

Then that " shift " help me to make a check up to fix it and always with success due that I know very well my system links and nok where looking for.

 

@noromance  , tracking issues not only happens at macroscopic level where you listen to it but at microscopic levels too and cantilever-less cartridge designs have that microscopic issue at higher levels even that you are not aware of it and that higher tracking micro issue modulates/colored what we are listening. You can read here about:

 

http://pspatialaudio.com/analogy.htm

 

Now, I owned at least two cantilever-less Ikeda cartridges and yes some characteristics of the reproduction sound is just unique like its alivness and immediacy of the MUSIC  due that transients are faster than in a normal cartridge designs but as any audio subjects all has its trade-offs and each one of us choose the personal best trade-offs to achieve our targets. I sold the Ikeda's that just can't fulfill my targets and that's it.

 

R.

Dear @mijostyn  : " In order to fool the human ear you only need a 0.3 dB difference in volume.  "

 

You posted the statement as is a " rule " or a measured standard and can't be a rule due to so many variables down there:

- first is that no one has mated ears with the same sensitivity, FR at the same frequency range deviations, almost nothing inside both ears are exactly the same.

-  second, the speakers normally are not exactly mated with the need it accuracy for their sound couldbe " leveled ".

- third, your electronics neither and niether the system cables. Time to time I make a check up in my monobloks about: output levels, bias and FR. Even in my phonolinepreamp the the attenuators with SMD resistors are extremely close in its " linearity " but not exactly.

- you can have mated speakers/cables and electronics but you need along those that the whole audio system have very high resolution and very low noise levels.

- four, you need exactly what to look for in the tracks that you are using for those comparisons ( for years  I always use same tracks in the LPs and at same SPL and seated at near field position. You need to know exactly how is the sound of those choosed LP tracks: knowing it as the fingers of your hands.

- the db levels where we can be foolished depends of what we are trying to " measure ".

 

It's not easy to have a general rule with. In my examples/first hand experiences where I learned about detection of distortions that " dull " sound makes me to ask for a little high SPL for the " life come on " but I never did it because I learned it's not necessary to disappears that " dull " /"low SPL" modifiying the attenuators position.

 

Yes maybe we can detect 0.3db deviations but not always because depends directly of what we are " measuring " through our imperfect ears and imperfect system. In other cases maybe we need over 1db deviation to been aware of it.

 

Maybe theory is what you posted but is different for any one of us. Normally all of us should detect more or less easy sound in the midrange frequency range but not so easy at both frequency extremes that in reality is what matters the more.

 

Well that's my take about.

 

R.

 

 

 

@mikelavigne , in both times there were gentlemans that " encourage " me to follow posting in the way I did and do with first hand experiences , facts and some " science " and obviously no applauses when some one posted no sense subjective issues, Just like in this thread, I don’t gave you any congratulations ( as all the wbf " friends " of you. ) because it’s not nothing that you did or do it in your room system. You did not improved but merely walked 3-4 steps down the quality system ladder.

The responsability of any good friend is to give advise and warnings on those audio system issues. Your audio " friends " where you are really happy with them only " encouraje " you to follow in the same wrong road and this is what you don’t like because you are in the last 2-3 years accustomed only to applauses/congratulations and any Agoner can confirm what I’m posting here only reading the wbf thread you linked or any other of your threads there.

Before the manufacturer disclosed the cartridge FR spec I told you founding in your posts that something was wrong with but what you posted here and in wbf made that an Agoner pulled the triger for that cartridge and he did it because your posts and he does not took in count the warnings and fact posted here against that cartridge. Do you help that OP? certainly not and I’m sorry for him.

 

" why i should not post here or attempt to interact with you..."

 

Mike, sorry but it’s not interact with me it’s interact with the true reality that just you and many other gentlemans just do not likes. @dover is direct as me and you don’t feel the same " interact ", you can read his post in this thread.

The wbf changed you and not for the better.

 

Btw, one of those wbf that encourage me to follow posting in the same way is

bazelio and his words are down there as like the words of the other gentlemans that like it no applauses if there is nothing to applause. Yes, my styles is way different to the one in wbf .

But here exist a fact: you don’t tell us and telling me what of all what I posted is totally wrong with the explanation/facts where you found it about. I know you have no facts for that or you cdid not wanted to do it.

 

Even if you do not cosidere any more to ineract with me or to " think " I’m an audio friend I still cosider you as that.

 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

Btw, I posted in this thread these on digital against LP:

 

""  

 The deep main reason is that: we are accustomed to those LP sound along its developed distortions.

When appeared the CD as even today we " like it " but do not " like it ", we always have an argument against digital even arguments that are totally false.

We refused and refuse to really think deep down there and ask our self: what are we missing with digital medium? because this is the issue. Here M Lavigne posted that LP is " complete " and obviously and against digital this medium is incomplete.

My take is that all of us are missing through digital medium ALL THE ADDED DISTORTIONS DEVELOPED THROUGH THE RECORDING AND PLAYBACK PROCCESS .

Our brain knows something is " different " down there: way lower distortions with digital.

 

R.

Dear @intactaudio : " When a system excels I find that the levels can get to the point where you don’t realize how loud it is until you try to have a conversation over the music. Since this is about cartridges, Lets assume we have two level matched cartridges with one showing slightly more tracing distortion than the other. Many people will find the one with more distortion sounds louder and more detailed while the lower distortion one sounds dark and closed in. "

 

I can’t be more in agreement that with your post where other gentlemans were in agreement by 2018 in these posts:

 

"" Unfortunately accentuated dynamics and resolution all too often mean a really nasty peak at the HF. ""

 

 

""" but be careful not to delude yourself.
Audiophiles .... tend to get seduced by what are essentially deviations from what the real listening experience provides- such as excessive detail, ability to resolve supposed room artifacts etc. etc.
These effects, in my substantial experience of live performances, just do not exist in a live listening environment, """

 

Just when I started to post in Agon and from there today I posted my first hand experiences through different times in different threads and with different audio item devices but all of those experiences are directly related to what intact audio shared:

 

the very first time that I remember to was around 30 years ago when I made a change of cables in my tonearm output where the IC was made of cooper and I changed by VDH silver cable. I did it with out any tiny SPL change. My first impressions were " terrible " and a heavy disappointment because with the silver cable suddenly the sound turn out DULL/no life. I make 3-4 times the cable change in the same listening session and at the end I left connected the VDH silver cable.

Next day and with out changing the SPL I listening with that silver cable by 4-5 hours in a row till I understand ( that was my first time I really was aware what in hell were happening down there. ) that what I was listening in reality was not a DULL sound but a way better quality sound level with " huge " lower distortions. That was the first time that I been aware too the benefit of the cable change for achieve too a lower system NOISE FLOOR.

Other experiences in exactly the same way ( with out changing SPL. ) and you can read it in my capacitor thread ( tech talk forum. ) where I posted the thread looking for help by other technical very good audiophiles knowing that my knowledge level about were lower than I imagine and I was a " follower " when talk about the best capacitors: things were that after some time in the thread I found out that the forbidden Wima/Vishay caps are the best caps ever. Obviously that all those gentlemans told me everything you could thing against me but one of those gentlemans took my challenge and he change ( somewhere in his system. ) his Jantzen expensive caps ( fancy caps that I owned too. As a fact I owned almost all fancy caps: Duelund, Jupiter, Mundorf, cooper tefon V-caps, and the like. I tested the Wima/VIshay either in electronics in a way critical place and at my speakers crossovers. ) for a 8.00 dollars Wima caps and after 2 weeks he posted that he did not likes the sound because was a DULL sound with out LIFE. He was missing, with out been aware, the Jantzen developed high distortions. Other gentlemans that already experienced the Wima supported that DULL sound and obviously all of them just do not like the natura/neutral color of live MUSIC but like high colored sound just like many of you including Mike Lavigne.

Is it my system a DULL syatem? no but the other way around and with very very low system noise floor.

Another experience was and is when I changed the SPL attenuators in my Essential SS Phonolinepreamp where those Swiss made attenuators mechanism were builded with true hole resistors where the signal pass through only one of those resistors at each SPL positions. Well, I changed both stereo pots ( my unit is dual mono fully balanced. ) by same mechanism but with SMD resistors and guess what?:

the difference was night and day and was nigth and day inside in a very high resolution system. Here the system noise floor that was truly low gone and goes even lower, just amazing when distortions goes out of each single link in any room/system chain.

Yes, now I can listen my system with higher SPL with out feeling that my ears are damage in any way, of course that I don’t listen to very high SPL.

 

All those experiences were posted more than once in the forum. So the gentlemans that insist in that I have to listen the Dava I will not because I already know that is full of developed distortions.

My speakers are 95db sensitivity level and attenuators fully opened I can put my ear at 2cm. from the tweeters and I can't listen nothing , no single sound/noise.

 

All these kind of experiences are the ones that permit me to said @mikelavigne that his Dart meter peacks with the cartridge that were 95db against only 40db with the digital medium were only heavy distortions that he likes a lot against digital in the Dizzy 4 LP.

 

That’s why I alway finish my posts with this:

 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

 

 

Dear @mikelavigne : Some way or the other @dover is telling you almost the same as me and you still hide behind that " I like it " in exactly the same way the manufacturer/distributor Mick did it. Again, the main issue is not what you or any one else " like it " but what is wrong or rigth ! ! ! !

I already told that Mick says " the proof is in the listening " as an answer to a direct questions to him looking for specs/science but things are as I posted that they not know nothing about and as you they trust in a very well regarded but heavy limited " tool " named EARS that foolished not only you with the Dava terrible FR spec but to all wbf gentlemans excatly as with the LFD.

But you just don’t get or do not understand the main issue because you just posted @mijostyn " you need to hear it with the DaVa sometime.......freaking awesome ", go figure ? ?

Btw, Mick posted there that a change of cables inside the electronics makes a wide change for the better using LFD cables with out think that the best cable inside electronics is NO cable at all. These LFD people are not crazy and they know exactly how to take money from the in good faith audio customers and they do it with huge success because always are gentlemans like the ones in wbf.

 

Dover posted exactly what I posted at least 3 times to you that’s not the issue under discussion:

 

" I do not doubt what you have heard in your system " and he continued confirmed what other posted here:

 

" There is no science discussed. "

 

and he is rigth when he said that almost all of you in that wbf use the IC cables as TONE CONTROLS. It’s less expensive and way better to have a good designed equalizer and exist several to buy.

Please, I posted you that/your beloved cartridge 6db FR deviation function as an equalizer because any single discrete frequency deviation affects almost two octave including harmonics and these are facts.

 

Not the manufacturers of those audio items and certainly no one of their owners have any single fact/spec that can explain that what all of you is rigth, no one has any single evidence about and again the ! ears " of all of you just foolished all.

 

You have very good relationship with Mick and bonzo75, invite both to have a friendly dialogue here . Maybe there is something we are loosing down there.

 

Please think on these: you are really dedicated and with high commitment with all your room/system choices and very special with analog where your DD and ID TTs are top quality performers, both mounted in vibrations-free plattforms, controled electrical sources, with two top tonearms and along those and several other characteristics you own the Dartzeel phonolinepreamp and I wonder for what that huge commitment for your self with the signal cartridge if just at the output of the tonearm that cartridge signal be destroyed/demolished and in this thread are the evidences of that destruction.

 

R.

Dear @mikelavigne : " fundamentally using an SUT potentially brings a musical touch, inner artistic view and envelopment that high gain phono preamps such as the darTZeel can’t quite do........ the silver wound EMIA phono and SUT is very special in this regard. but hard to make an objective case. "

 

Well, believe it or not I try in all what I posted to you been " polite " against how I normally am: direct and now I will be just DIRECT to you.

Objective not necesarily means that always needs measurements even if are desired, objective has another characteristic too: COMMON SENSE and additional if we can a decent knowledge levels.

 

Well your audio objective knowledge levels is to low and you showed in this and other threads in wbf/agon. One gentleman here told me by email that due that you are heavy entilted with your 100% subjective opinion then I just left you that way but I can’t do it because every audio forum is not only for gentlemans as you or several of us but arrive several " new comers " that are looking for advise or looking to learn reading what other audiophiles do or their opinions .

 

I already told you that in the past the people like me had you as a leader to follow in audio subjects and audio items but from 2-3 years ( maybe more ) now you shifted to be just a follower. I told you that wbf already damaged you and contaminated you in bad ways.

I was banned not only one but twice from that forum ( the owners dislike my comments about tubes because they are tube lovers and elevctronics distributors too. One of them dies for the IO phonolinepreamp that guess what? each time you change the SPL that unit change the FR too: crazy for say the least. Tey told me that I'm a troller, could be. ) and certainly I’m not talking on because of that. WBF is and " stampede " place where people make " things " with out no sense ( like a real stampede. ): Dava is n example, SME 3012 too, Stradivarius VDH too, Lamm, American Sound, etc, etc and the like and same with the LFD that perhaps is the Century Stampede and other like you are proudly because the time delay to get the item is over a year and in the Dava 8 moths ! ! ! go figure. I appreciated Peter A, an ex-Agoner, where there he changed his Magico for a vintage horns, his excellent amp by Lamms, his SME 30 for the terrible RX-8000 and obviously the 3012 plus the 0.7+ mv Stradivarius following the " advise " of the seller that's a way active posting member in that forum, pity.

 

Common sense says, to all gentlemans but you and your wbf audio friends, that talking of analog rig in specific of the cartridge signal preservation integrity EACH ADDITIONAL JOINT ( that I already explained to you as modulations too. ) IN THAT CARTRIDGE SIGNAL PATH NOT ONLY CAN´T HELP TO IMPROVE THE CARTRIDGE SIGNAL QUALITY  PERFORMANCE  BUT THE OTHER WAY AROUND IT : D E G R A D E S  THE SIGNAL,  SO ( everything the same ) AS SHORTEST THE CARTRIDGE SIGNAL PATH THE BETTER. Period.

Obviously that you have not the common sense to understand it or at least is what you showed in your posts after I gave you not one but at least twice wide same  explanations.

 

Mike your approach of Phono Corrector + SUT + " thousands of cables and wires + linepreamp is TOTALLY WRONG, no matter what against the SS active high gain balanced phonolinepreamp your own: Dartzeel.

Because your low knowledge levels on what @atmasphere posted ( I’m in agreement with him about and about SUT too that’s the wrong way to go because I already explained is not a passive item. ) you posted:

 

"balanced circuits = one advantage....but not the whole ball game... and that cannot be known. we all can have an opinion about it ...........the best performing systems i have heard up till now have not used balanced circuits .. "

 

Mike the balanced electronics design is not about " opinion " as you said, you just did not know what you are talking about and that’s why your thrid statement : "  the best performing systems ". Mike do you already took in count that your system electronics are BALANCED ?  so what are you talking about.

The Dartzeel RIAA measured FR deviation is 0.5db and the bandwindth is 1hz- 1 Mhz. noise level 80db with out " a mile " of silver wires and other by cooper and aditional solid metal raptor and the like: Dart needs only one balanced IC cable from the tonearm to the phonolinepreamp and that’s it ( @lewm, is an active high gain design. ). Do it you a favor ( as with the Dava spec FR 6db dviation. ) and ask the EMIA designer the RIAA spec /noise for the PC and FR/noise of the SUT and its bandwindth even if you don't care about.

What you like or what I like it does not matters in absolute with the issues we are talking not even your audio targets or mines that at " random " mates that common sense. I'M NOT TALKING OF WHAT EACH ONE OF US LIKE IT BUT WHAT IS RIGTH OR ITS WROGN, THAT'S IT.  Got it?

 

So, are you in favor of those 158 joints of your approach or in favor of less than 10 joints between the cartridge signal and the Dartzeel amplifier. ? What means your common sense?

 

An audio wbf friend is active part of that no sense wbf characteristic stampede and this confirmed:

" visit where he preferred DaVa + Thorens 124 to Etsuro + Continuum " and after been with you guess what? he ordered the Dava and others your beloved LFD and dongles.

I think that Mick of LFD ( not Lavigne. ) said that " the proof is the listening " because not even they know where they are " seated " there are no measurements exactly as the undisclosed ones on the Dava till 2 weeks ago.

 

Btw, you said you can't " understand " ( your words. ) why that black output cable in your phono corrector but I know by first hand experiences that that cable is a wise decision and what I don't " understand " is why the designer of your PC don't by-passed the output connector and soldered directly to the board as a dedicated output. Yes, it's that good enough for that.

 

R.

 

 

 

 

 

Dear  @mikelavigne  : Thank's. I already knew all what you posted and I can see you don't have answer about the differences between all that longng travdel of the cartridge signal inside the Phono Corrector + SUT + Dartzeel line preampg agains t what I posted:

 

"  your Dartzeel is a high gain active phonolinepreamp: CONNECT THE CARTRIDGE SIGNAL USING ONLY ONE IC CABLE nothing added to preserve the cartridge signal integrity at to stays nearer and truer to the recording. "

I don't question what you like beut I'm severely questioning not only those LFD items but those tubes and SUTs vs the great direct exceptional Dartzeel SS linepreamp.

I don't care what the other wbf gentlemans say on all their congrutalations to you and what they are listening through those LFD cables. I care only about you and that severe change you did it from pure SS high gain active unit to separated tubes RIAA + SUT + a line preamp. 

That's what does not makes sense to me: why return to the past instead to follow with the best proved today technology that degrades the less the cartridge signal, no matters what?

Yes, it is what you like and obviously is up to you. But this followed saying something wrong is down there:

"is unique to that particular place and beyond my understanding. " The key word in your statement is that you don't care about and me from the outside just like to understand the whole issues that LFD Mick and EMIA just " dead silence " and is obvious their silence because you are very good customer.

Thank's again for your patience and answers .

 

R.

 

 

 

Dear @mikelavigne  : Thank's for your patience and appreciated, almost we all here ( at least me. ) are learning about.

 

Btw, PC means Phono Corrector that's where at its output ( very specific place. ) you have a non LFD cable and from there my " wondering " with.

The knowledge  technical  audiophiles here as @terry9 ​@atmasphere ​@mijostyn ​@lewm ​@larryi  @mulveling  and some others can have good ideas what's happening down there with those cables and with the Phono Corrector and SUTs.

 

Maybe not, I don't know.

Now, somewhere Dr. Bews should has very precise/accurated answers along his measurements as foundation of those.

What makes me that I had and have some " suspicion " was the Mick answer when that wbf audiophile asked for measures and he respond: " the proof is in the listening ". 

 

R.

 

R.

Dear friends: and btw. I wonder 2 things and maybe  some of you ( mijos. lewm or some one else. ) could help:

 

first is how the LFD manufacturer been totally sure that in their cables that comes with 6 signal sources where in each wire source the shape/geometry is different as is the builded material choosed and in the time domain those 6 signals arrives accurately at the absolute same time with out a micro/nano sg. time delay? I wonder about.

 

My other wondering that maybe only Mike/the owner can now are the reasons or reason to he decided that the LFD cable is not good enough to been at the output of his PC where he choosed for a different cable. Obviously I have not any explantion or hypotesis about.

 

Just curiosity because all ththat scenarion gaves him the answer for the best cartridges. Thank's

 

R.

I found out that each LFD cable price is over 16K+ when the output non LFD cable in the Phono Corrector is around 80.00.,  I could think that you are aware of this " contrast ".

 

R.

Dear @mikelavigne : " " tell us about your listening opinions.

all the other is noise and nonsense. "

 

If you ask for the " best cartridge " I already posted twice my opinion and about the Dava I never listen to it.

As you could think by my posts I’m wondering from whre that " I like it " in your posts came in .

Mike for so many years that I can’t remember we were and are audio friends where normally we are in agreement, not always but at least 85% of the time and I’m really worried that this time we are in absolut disagreement inside a hot dialogue in a way critic/important audio issues.

Due to all those and like I just posted to frogman:

 

" no one can’t questioning that personal preference but what I can do is to analyze the overall scenario/context room/system from where is developed that " I like it ".

 

Things are that I did it and I’m not telling I’m rigth and only will describe some " facts " that I found out and along your self special MUSIC reproduction priorities/preferences could explain some " things ".

I have to tell you that this is the same " road "/proccess that I follow with any other audiophile trying to understand their opinions on first hand audio subject experiences but been you I take care very carefully my " research ".

 

The premises that founds my proccess are ( everything the same. ):

- the shortest signal path the better

- the lower/less joints and connectors the better. Joints is a non desirable interruption to the signal flows.

- with phono stages: the inverse RIAA eq. lower FR deviation the better.

- whit phono stages: the lower noise level the better as the widest FR bandwindth.

- the lower output impedance the better

- specs are important and if shows measurements the better.

- any additional " item " to a direct path of the signal means signal degradation.

 

Other than that premises/targets for me only could means: lost of signal integrity and added modulations: this modulations means " distortions, noise, colorations. "

All those is what I try to follow in my room/system too. This is me.

 

Well these is what I found out that surrounds the cartridge signal under discussion:

 

In your system you have the analog rig that fullfil in excellent conditions my targets that are different from yours as mines are different from other gentlemans too. Each one of us are unique in those regards.

However you choosed and like a lot this one:

 

 

the cartridge signal travels inside the tonearm wires as is in any tonearm and at the tonearm output that signal is connected to an " enhancer/dongle " with one female/male connectors and joints at either extreme ( 12 " in length . ). From here the signal goes to the IC phono cable that according with the LFD designer/manufacturer inside are:

 

" The cable is a twisted pair and not a coaxial cable with outer screen however it pretty unconventional cable in that the hot and cold conductors are different to each other unlike conventional cables, in that the hot and cold conductors formed from either silver copper, amorphous, and pure solid silver ribbons basically there are six different materials for the hot and cold conductors. The rings are for mechanical dampening and do not carry any networks. The plugs are all custom made for each particular cable and compliment the sonic characteristic of each cable design. A combination of different numbers and sizes of conductors enabled the sound to be enhanced significantly over the use of single conductors ( HE DIT NOT SHOWS IN ANY WAY FROM WHERE CAME THAT LAST STATEMENT ENHANCED SUPERIORITY TO ONE SINGLE CONDUCTOR. ). Some of the LFD cables incorporate enhancers internally, and sometimes use different conductors between enhancers . " he continue: " which is designed to improve the sound..... One major improvement that is achieved by the enhancer is the significant reduction of grain. "

IMHO DOES NOT EXIST ANY SINGLE SIGNAL " ENHANCER " DUE THAT ANY ADDITIONAL ITEM TO THE SIGNAL PATH DEVELOSP MODULATIONS THAT GOES AGAINST WHAT IS IN THE LP GROOVES. In the other side he said reduction of grain with out explain how that could happens with out signal lost how that dongle can distinguish between signal musical information and grain ! ! ? ?.

 

Yes, does not exist any single spec/measure information for the cable or for the dongle.

An audiophile asked him:

" "" That is how does one arrive at the choice of various thicknesses? Why does the negative have so much more wire than the positive? What are the capacitance measurements pre and post dongle insertion? What materials are preferred and why? What governs choice of dongle length? Does the dongle preserve shielding if the preceding interconnects are also shielded? What is the inductance pre / post dongle insertion? Is the dongle behaving as a filter - if so what frequencies is it acting on? Is a dongle universal or only suited to specific components for which it is designed electrically? "

 

The manufacturer response was: " The proof comes from the listening " and they made " thousands of listening sessions.

 

In this first cable/dongle where the signal pass through exist at least 9 joints against normally 4 joints in any other IC cable.

 

Well the signal path continue is travel and is connected to a Phono Corrector by EMIA that’s a tube unit with a inverse RIAA eq. designed with silver inductors instead capacitors. The input signal instead the input connector stays soldered directly to the circuit board adds more joints using a cable in between. Can we ask for RIAA specs or noise level , etc, etc.? yes we can but does not exist information about.

Now and through a different cable the signal goes to a SUT with silver transformers to achieve the necessary gain to be handled for a line preamp.

This is what the designr posted somewhere: "" nickel output transformers with over a mile of silver in them. "

 

Yes, the cartridge signal travels for a way long path.

 

From the SUT the signal goes through a LFD cable to the line preamp where that cartridge signal ends this totuose path. This linepreamp is part of the Dartzeel you own and where you have all specs we need and where we can see inside the unit that the designer , as other today top electronics designers/manufacturrs, choosed SMD devices for a way short signal path.

What am I using in my system? exactly the same you can do because your Dartzeel is a high gain active phonolinepreamp: CONNECT THE CARTRIDGE SIGNAL USING ONLY ONE IC CABLE nothing added to preserve the cartridge signal integrity at to stays nearer and truer to the recording. Well that’s my targets and the way I listen cartridges in my system.

 

Maybe as you said what I posted has no sense for you but only for me. I still am your audio friend trying to help even that you don’t asked for.

 

R.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear @frogman : " How many examples of equipment with great measurements that sounded mediocre, even poor, have we all experienced? "

your statement was something that happened several years ago but not today, could be everywhere an item that fullfil what you said but you can be sure that’s an exception.

I have first hand experiences about measurements and learned what to look for through them and which ones are really important. I learned all those when we manufactured a phonolinepreamp and this was over 10 years ago and even that that phonolinepreamp inside the owners systems today is still competitive and it still is my phonolinepreamp reference that has some modifications over the originals units.

In those times we fixed the main targets at different levels of the design and builded needs. We makes several mesuremenst with our tools about and other measurements were made by others because we did not own the Audio Precision as the one used by J.Atkinson in STRPH and guess what: the unit measured really good and excellent in some parameters before we listened to it and when we did it the unit was " rigth on targets " and I can tell you that we were and are extremely demanding MUSIC lovers/audiophiles. At the end we only had to fine tunning it with almost no severe active/passive parts changes.

With out those kind of first hand experiences you can’t understand the today measures importance and how read those measures and what are telling you.

The amps I own were modified and were measured and are excellent even today and the same I can tell with my speakers and speaker crossover modified too and my tonearm is like the phonolinepreamp " made in home " and excellent too ..Those adjectives were shared by audio friends to me.

As I said my subjectivity is well weigthed by objectivity and enjot a lot the MUSIC putting at minimum developed distortions/colorations and yes my real reference is live MUSIC seated at near field position.

You can be sure that the MUSIC " color " you like it is not exactly what likes M Lavigne, me or any other gentleman. What you can be sure too is that I always try to finish a dialogue when the other gentleman tells me: " I like it " end of the history because no one can't questioning that personal preference but what I can do is to analyze the overall scenario/context room/system from where is developed that " I like it ".

 

R.

 

Dear @dogberry  : This was my answer to you about my opinion and other gentlemans opinion:

 

"" 

 " And really, can anyone say they know what is best in anyone else's world? "

 

No one can because is something personal/subjective. What we all can is to give opinions/advise on some diffderent audio items in other audiophile room/system as alternatives bt at the end the system owner has the privilege to goes with its own decision.  ""

 

You just posted:

 

" I am unsure what philosophical underpinnings you propose to justify telling someone their subjective experience is less valid than yours.  "

I did not, that could be a misunderstood or a bad explanation from my part. Btw, I can tell you that my " subjective " opinion is weigthed by " objectivity " too, not only subjective.

 

Btw, in this thread I posted to M Lavigne:

 

""" qquestioning you what you like it because it’s a personal opinion your opinion of what YOU like and no one can question it. """

 

and that's a reality, I'm not questioning @mikelavigne . I'm questioning the Dava and by coincidence Mike is an owner.

 

R.

 

 

 

Dear @osada22 : No, I’m not dreaming nothing your statement is wrong because was you who posted in other thread the Dava FR where it shows those 6db deviation.Fr whatever reason you don’t show yet the cartridge compliance that any owner andpotencial customers must know to calculate the resonance frequency with their tonearm they already own. Even that M.Lavigne does not cares about that spec is a must to have.

Yes, I agree with @mijostyn .

Btw, @mikelavigne today no one and I mean it can trust only in that " listen " that is only subjectivity. We need to be very carefully about and try to analyze the item surrounded facts/characteristics in an objective way. Ears can foolish not only you but any one else including me. Dava did it with you and here two other gentlemans opinions on this specific issue in this thread:

 

@boothroyd  : "  You make many valid points about subjective & objective balance for a “World’s Best” title .."

@jasonbourne52  : " This is a case where the "golden ears" crowd’s subjective impressions leads to erroneous conclusions! "

 

 

 

R.

 

 

 

Dear @richardkrebs  : Good that you have a new cartridge that fulfill your priorities.

Those priorities are mainly the ones that bias each one of us preferences to say: " this is the best cartridge I heard ".

SS manufacturer is very good for marketing and in my opinion what you are listening has a direct relationship with the new cartridge body design that promotes lower internal resonances/vibrations/distortions but that that " fact " could be says that the cartridge stylus it's more time in contact with each groove I think it's not true till the manufacturer can prove it.

Cartridge body shape is an important issue for any cartridge, we can see that importance not only with your cartridge but other cartridges as the A95, the Verissimo and others. The Colibri avoid that issue just several years ago with it's body-less design.

 

 

""  it tracks superbly . " again that's your bias because the cartridge compliance is 10cu that's  almost " marginally " for  grooves tracking.

 

As you and other side it's an almost impossible question to answer, there are to many paramerts involved in each cartridge that contributes to its quality performance and additional are our priorities.

 

Btw,   " Front runners at the moment are Grado and DaVa...""

 

in good shape @terry9  , that Dava FR is around 6db out of a " decent " cartridge FR. The Hyperion is only 2db. Obviously that you have your own priorities and thta's what I'm saying.

 

R.

@frogman always exist a true problem with audiophiles and that’s that our ears are way limited and several times we can be foolished by when we trust on them on what we like it.

 

Look, in the last 2 years Dava cartridge owners ( including M Lavigne. ) die for it as the " best " quality cartridge and all of them have that attitude because they like what they listen ( and I think still do. ) against other cartridges and all of them do not knew that the cartridge FR between 20hz-20khz has ( at least ) a 6db deviation till 2 days ago that after those 2 years the manufacturer disclosed ( in other thread and under pressure. ) the cartridge specs. All those gentlemans trust in their ear, references and audio system experiences. Obviously each one of them with a different room/system.

That way of " massive " behavior was totally subjective and yes they all like it and  they like it with out knowing the " numbers " that shows that were totally wrong by any cartridge quality standard and obviously all paid money for.

That FR deviation is the worst I knew and know of any other cartridge .

We can’t trust exclusively in our ears and experiences, " numbers " always helps a lot if we know to " read it " we just need this kind of objectivity like it or not.

R.

Dear @frogman  : I aggre with some of your statements and disagree with others.

 

"" each piece of audio gear inserted into an audio system affects the resulting sound in one of two ways- it moves the resulting sound closer to, or farther away from the sound of live music ""

 

There are main characteristics in live MUSIC that can't be matched in our systems.: first is that in a live event seated at near field position there is almost nothing between you and the MUSIC sources but air and that's why that power and dynamics that develops the live MUSIC sources transients and the other characteristic is that natural tone color and rythm in live MUSIC.

So each gear can't puts us closer but farther away. Why?:

Each link in the room audio always alters/degrades the recording MUSIC and that alters/degrades means that recording information even at minimum is losted and added by each single system link developed any kind of distortions the next link in the system can't recovery the losted information and can't disappears the developed distortions but the other way around because what happened in the first system link continue in the more or les same way with all the other links till we listen the final MUSIC sound information.

Now and even that we did not attend to the recording proccesss we can work inside our room/system to stay nearer to the recording if at each system link we choosed good item designs with the lower distortions that technically is possible and that's why my room/system main target is to put everykind of generated distortion at minimum and in this way I will be nearer to the recording and if I'm nearer to the recording I'm nearer to the live MUSIC.  can have some good control inside the whole system playback proccess but obviously no control of the recording proccess.

Yes, accuracy is way important and technical specs count about today.

Do you thing that that Dava cartridge FR 6db deviations can puts you nearer to the recording in any room system or that the next system link can do it?  NO WAY no matters what because no single room/system link is neutral.

Subjectivity is important but objectivity too and we have to take in count all the facts/obectivity around the playback proccess. Objectivivity along subjectivity is what works and not that  " technical issues take a back seat. "

 

Only an opinion.

 

R.

 

Dear @thekong : Te digital/analog issue is not about measuremenst, in this thread and other threads where I posted about I never mentioned " measurements " because it’s not the issue. I posted in this thread:

 

" for many years we were accustom to listen it and what does it means this fact: simple we are accustomed to the LP developed high distortions it’s what we like even if its wrong and this is not the issue. The deep main reason is that: we are accustomed to those LP sound along its developed distortions. "

 

and :

 

""

all of us are missing through digital medium ALL THE ADDED DISTORTIONS DEVELOPED THROUGH THE LP RECORDING AND PLAYBACK PROCCESS .

Our brain knows something is " different " down there.

 

You know if we have a " routine " of any self behavior that we do it day by day for several years and if one day we haven’t the time to do that " routine " the brain works in automatic and many times we could be a little confused about due that we have to go but the brain told something was not do it. This is not about measurements it’s how the human brain works that in that case works by " instinct ".

Live MUSIC seated at nearfield position just does not sounds, not even near, as what you or any one of us listen at our places. Far away from there.

 

Look the main issue is what puts us nearer and truer to the recording. No matters what is digital medium compared not with analog but to LIVE MUSIC SEATED AT NEAR FIELD POSITION where normally are the recording microphones. It’s not rocket science is only : common sense with no biased attitude.

Do you think that live MUSIC seated at that position will permits you to listen it , say , 60 minutes?. No way, you will feel not what you experienced in that friend system listening digital but even more tortuose.

 

Live MUSIC has a dynamic power that we have to " live " at that position: is unveliable, but live MUSIC is brigthness and sometimes even hardness as could be the Dizzy horn at 2 m. that you can’t " support " it for more than 10-15 minutes with out damaging your ears for ever.( well microphones can pick-up en excess of 140db SPL. ). That sweetness or warmness that many talk  with analog/LP just does not exist at that live position.

 

Live MUSIC is like poetry or painting all of them a true ART and always wake up some kind of emotions no matters what.

 

MUSIC brougth to us, many times, very nice or not so nice " memories " even if we listen in a radio device.

 

So what are you talking about? Jitter?: you mentioned for the first time in this thread and that kind of " characteristic " exist playing LPs.

 

R.

Then if you don't took position in the overall issue why in " hell " you are posting about.

Please don't go around: which your take about your today position? thank's in advance and please try not " dead silence ".

 

R.

Dear @mijostyn : " wooden bodied cartridges and their sonic performance was not as good as (read colored) the best metal units and their construction quality was not as good. Wood is not a good substrate for a cartridge. "

 

Cartridge body material is " only a part of the overall parts in the cartridge design and yes it’s important but I think that the designer knows more than you or me how his designs performs in the whole context and inside the designer targets. Normally wood cartridge materials are " treated " in several ways.

 

I have good experiences with wood cartridge bodies through the time. My first one was the Brier great vintage performer but my first Benz Micro was the Ruby 2 and I like it and I like it so much that I bougth its LP model that did not like me but his LPS is very good performer and the Colibri still is at the top along other today ones as could be MSL. I own the Koestsu RSP and even that I normally do not like the Koetsu signature the Platinum wood is very good. In this thread @mglik almost " die for " his Grado Epoch.

Not only wood material was or is used for cartridges but with TTs too as the Teres Or Sota and even in tonearms as Durand or Grace ( I owned the Sota and the Grace tonearm. )

 

Almost all first hand experiences and yes inside my room/system and MUSIC/sound priorities.

 

R.

 

So, I disagree with you in that specific regards. Maybe not the best cartridge body material but it works and works fine.

@lewm  No, I did not, you posted: " 

" Which is maybe why it’s degenerated into an even more endless and unresolvable debate about analog vs digital "

If you already solved then why posted that? and if you resolved then please share with all of us your take. Welcomed.

 

R.

Dear @lewm : " even more endless and unresolvable debate about analog vs digita "

Unresolvavle? really ? certainly could be " unresolvable " for you and the full biased subjectivists but not for me and other gentlemans with real/true open mind/unbiased.

 

R.

Dear @o_holter : " It is amazing that it is still competitive. ", amazing and incredible for say the least.

But exist a deep and main reason why of that and the reasonis that almost all of us was what for many years were accustom to listen it and what does it means this fact: simple we are accustomed to the LP developed high distortions it’s what we like even if its wrong and this is not the issue. The deep main reason is that: we are accustomed to those LP sound alond its developed distortions.

Whe appeared the CD as even today we " like it " but do not " like it ", we always have an argument against digital even arguments that are totally false.

We refused and refuse to really think deep down there and ask our self: what are we missing with digital medium? because this is the issue. Here M Lavigne posted that LP is " complete " and obviously and against digital this medium is incomplete.

My take is that all of us are missing through digital medium ALL THE ADDED DISTORTIONS DEVELOPED THROUGH THE RECORDING AND PLAYBACK PROCCESS .

Our brain knows something is " different " down there.

If you take a little of time and make a check-up of all the steps in the playback proccess where the cartridge signal must pass you can understand in more objective way my take my statement about. The cartridge signal playback path is a long tortuose path for the way sensitive cartridge signal and at each of those " thousands " path steps the cartridge signal integrity goes degrading and degrading till we can listen. Maybe in what we can listen are " nice distortions " ( we are accustom for. ) in 30% or maybe 40% of the original signal. Digital is way direct and if anything more complete and nearer truer to the recording it does not matters that we don’t like it so much what we are listning and till we think a little with ovjectivity the LP will stays extremely " competitive " no matters what.

Btw, one of those false argument in favor of LP is that " we listen analog not in digital " but is false because what our ears and body are perciving with digital what comes in is just a SPLs waves exactly in similar way that the SPL waves that comes in from LPs, this is not the issue. Other false argument is that LP moves us more emotionally than digital to the degree that digital could be boring. Other false argument: " When digital is truly better there won’t be cartridge and tonearm manufacturers "" and is false because exist thousands and thousands audiophiles that own thousands of LPs and that " loves " reissues.

I asked you which is your MUSIC REFERENCE and your answer is full of subjectivity: " what we like it ".

I asked you because when talking of digital vs analog almost all always compare digital against the LP REFERENCE or the R2R REFERENCE when in reality and overall those mediums can’t be a MUSIC REFERENCE .

We can argue against that but for me the only true reference are the live events we attended and attend seated at near field position that even at nearer position ( that we can seat. ) is where the recording microphones are " seated " and where pic-up the signal coming from the MUSIC sources.

If we don’t have yet enough lisent experiences like that then we really do not know what I’m talking about and why I repeat and repeat that " nearer and truer to the recording " that in my point of view should be the main target for any audiophile/MUSIC lover.

Sure I can be wrong but not only in this thread but in many others over the years I posted that statement in this and other web forums. Only an opinion.

Anyway, thank’s for your answers,

 

R.

Dear @o_holter : " . The digital version is good, but still has a way to go. " my recordings still hold a candle to streaming "

Sure because is a " fake " digital version not an original digital version and because your take is full of subjectivity with out analising for your self what in reality are you listen it through analog. Obviously you don’t care about and you don’t care ( as almost all analog lovers . ) because that’s what you like it: subjectivity again.

Almost always that we are making comments on digital and analog recording experiences almost all of us compare digital listen experience against same LP analog experience and this kind of reference IMHO is way wrong.

I think that not only is way wrong but unnaceptable because both mediums not only are way different but the analog MUSIC information we are listening comes " truncated ": no one analog rig/cartridge can pick up all the recorded information in the LP grooves against digital that’s nearer and truer to the recording . There are other objective reasons why we almost always are comparing airplanes against a banana and you are not alone in this thread because between others M Lavigne did it on that specific regards.

 

Obviously that to each his own.

 

All subjectivist gentlemans almost always just diminish objectivity in so hard way that forget of it.

Btw, which your MUSIC reference?

 

R.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear @mikelavigne : With all respect and re-reading your posts in this thread shows me that your mental attitude changed a little in the last months or years ( no issue with because averything is changing always. ) and I don’t know if is because the " pressure " over your system and way of thinking in the thread or because you really changed. Let me explain about:

first I can read that you bougth the Dava by the " be spoke " in the forum and that I remember that was not " normal " in you on personal audio issues. The Dava stampede strated around 2020 by " be spoke " gentlemans mainly in your forum and exactly as today ( 2 years latter. ) with no web site by the manufacturer and not only neither cartridge measurements but not even ( till today ) specs . Yes, all of you Dava owners can say: who cares, we like what we listen with.

Obviously you are a part of that stampede and obviously a follower and I never knew this " follower " new attitude in you.

 

Next two statements by your part that speaks of other change:

 

" why do i even come to Audiogon? sillyness. "

" i simply do not see the value to me in this thread. "

 

It looks as something way " presumptuous " and I can’t remmeber you that way. Fine with me, no problem.

 

" ultimate performance does not involve digital.....in any step. "

 

that’s your today subjective " absolutism ".

 

I read the 2020 thread  and after around 500 posts ( including yours. ) no one of those gentlemans writed any single word about cantilever-less heavy tracking and developed distortions issues, no one and no one mentioned any single word about cartridge specs .

You already had and still have noise " problems " with that cartridge, with out mention what a gentleman posted here about those 2 extra wires for the cartridge power supply that goes against the " free " movements on your tonearm, not a good notice and you accepted ( ? ? ? ).

I think that in the last 2-3 years you made a come back to the audio past when you bougth a phono stage tube design and along that you find out that the external SUTs performs better than the one inside the phono stage ( you posted those in Agon threads ). Tubes is an electronic alternative and the worst place to use it is to handled cartridges and specially LOMC ones. In the other side, SUTs are named as " passive " devices and almost every one ( mainly tube lovers. ) says makes less degradation to the cartridge signal vs a couple of active bipolar devices ( really small and " ridiculous " devices. ) but things are that SUTs are far aways to be passive but are really " active " with the cartridge signal because this signal travels a huge number of m. through the transformers, cables and connectors and that signal it’s almost coupled relationship degrading at each mm. the cartridge signal way higher that those couple bipolar devices and not only that because the SUT has limited frequency response at both frequency extremes where your Dartzeel has not. Btw, you have good relationship with Dartzeel designer and can ask him why in the design the designers always are looking for the shortest path for where the audio signal must pass through.

 

Next link speaks of the cartridge importance tracking issue and I know that some audiophiles already read it somewhere and know the issue very well. We don’t need to be a technical oriented audiophile because it’s asy to understand the tracking information overall issue explained there. As me you only need to read carefully/slow. I’m posting the link because @mijostyn and I posted that cartridge tracking abilities is the main cartridge design characterisitc ( I have no less than 15 years posting the same. ) that even with out the link is just " common sense ":

 

http://pspatialaudio.com/analogy.htm

 

""  A rigid cantilever will offer no relief from this inevitable resonance on the tracking ability of the stylus. And tracking is king: an unyielding cantilever could introduce high frequency mistracking with its insiduous ability to damage records without betraying the damage it is doing. "

 

Everything here is posted in good shape, no other kind of attitude/agenda.

 

R.

 

 

Dear @lewm  : I just seen/aware of what you posted time before.

 

" Raul, in your own experience, what is the best sounding cartridge? . "

 

I already posted what has a close relationship with your question.

There is no best cartridge at all  because the quality level performance of any cartridge have several playing desired characteristics where you can't diminish any one of them and unfortunatelly no single cartridge model achieves all at the top:

you have to ask your self: the best tracking, the best HF/MF/LF, the best low noise, the best transient response, the best natural color, the best natural agresiveness or brigthness, the best rythm,...etc.

 

And that's why the best cartridges overall sounds alike and between that " sounds alike " we make our choices with the cartridges that are nearer to each one of us targets.

If $$$ is no issue then the best choice is to own 3-4 of those " alike " performers and stay away to married with one cartridge model. You can be sure that those cartridge choices will fulfill your targets.

 

lewm, we are talking of transducers where each one has a similar but " unique/signature " voice exactly as a speaker but obviously and normally we don't own 4 different speakers but 3-4 cartridges do not needs the speaker space to listen it.

R.

 

 

Dear @mglik  : Yes, it's obvious that with a 20cu compliance it has to track very well. Maybe not better " than any cartridge " but at the ends a good tracker.

 

I own and owned several cartridges with different compliance spec and no one high compliance ( this is 20cu and up ) disappointed on that specific issue but certainly are better tracking cartridges but " unfortunatelly " not with the great cartridge motor of your sample.

I need to experience it and compare with the vintage signature Z series.

 

R.

 

@mglik : " putting the stylus down on the run in grove there is dead silence. As well as the groves between cuts. This silence is indicative of the purity of the music content. "

I already posted here about your statement but was till today that I fall in count that one of the main Grado characteristic in its Optimized transmission line cartridge design was to " disappears " the surface noise but not only in the unmodulated grooves but mainly in the modulated grooves and achieve that with out any single compromise/trade-off that could disturb the true MUSIC signal information and yes you can hearing it. It’s part of that high quality level performance you are in experience with your Epoch 3.

 

Again, congratulations for,

R.

Dear @mglik : I owned and own vintage Grado cartridges and till today no one of them ( including " the tribute ". ) disappointment under playing by its quality level performance.

" Optimized Transmission Line " was what Joseph Grado named to a totally new kind of design inside his first MC and latter on inside the Signature models as the XTZ and other models on this series.

That kind of new design dissapeared when those vintage Signature Z series gone out of the market but the white papers about were inside Grado company. Any one that lisened the XTZ knows that today could be one of the best cartridge quality performer out there. Maybe your Epoch 3 shares that cartridge motor design that’s a unique one and only Grado has it.

Btw, about that special ellipthical stylus in the Epoch 3 could be one of two other than ellipthical stylus shape used by Grado but unfortunatelly came only with a name but no description of the tip shape. One was named just: Grado tip and comes in one of the Grado samples I still own and the other is the one in the Signature family of the XTZ named: Twin Tip and maybe this is that " special ellipthical " in the Epoch 3 and I think this because today there is nothing really NEW on top stylus tip shapes: everything we can imagine stays already in the market.

 

Anyway, again thinking loud.

 

R.

@mglik  : Btw, do you know which the differences between the Grado ellipthical stylus shape ( that says is a " special "/unique elliptical tip. ) and normal ellipthical stylus samples?.

Obviously is working great but where is different is the question. Only curiosity.

 

R.

Dear @mglik  :  Channel D is a very good full SS design and wil makes your Grado shines better than ever. Good move.

Then you already " married " with the Grado. Must be something unique and obviously something to experienced.

Btw, along with a better phono stage unit I told you that could be a good idea to mate/test the Grado with a different tonearm and there are several options about like Reed. 

Now, could be a quality improvement with a different tonearm?, wel I don't know for sure it's a " move " that has to past the listening tests. There is no other way but if you try it could or not find out that quality improvement level performance and if not then you confirm that what you have rigth now is the " one " couple in your system and that meet your Music/audio priorities.

Only thinking " loud ".

 

R.

Dear @mikelavigne  : " amp linearity is not an issue. "

 

Certainly not and that was not my point.. You missed the main issue in my post. You said that at the same SPL the cartridge shows higher  " signal energy ".

 

A good amp ( like yours. ) just amplify what comes at its input with almost no modifications. The amp does not knows if are incoming musical information only or if that musical information comes with high integrated/added distortions ( developed in other system chain's links: cartridge/tonearm/phono stage and the like. The system electronics can't fix those distortions and the best it can do is to reproduce it that way. ) and when amplify the digital signal this signal truly comes with way lower added distortions and that's why lower watts peacks when the analog/cartridge high distortions provoque those high watts peacks. The higher the distortions coming in to the incoming signal amp the higher the amp watts peacks. 

This is not just an argument but something you have to understand because you just did not what I explained before. 

" digital rounds off the top of the transient compared to the analog..."

 

that goes totally against what normally happens that's the other way around. Almost all LP lovers make a negative critic of the HF agresiveness of digital  even hardness or brithness down there. Did you directly made the digital transfer?, the latest CD came from 2013  and as almost everyone know the original Pablo recording came from sept. 1974 and you know that are a lot of analog and digital re-issues.  Analogue Productions has 4 LP re-issues, I own the HQ and the original Pablo label.

R.

 

 

 

Dear @mglik  : For your OP you are " biased " to your new Grado cartridge.

In the lst weeks made you a Lyra come back to listen it and makes a comparison again in between? and if yes then your Grado preference is still there?

 

Thank's in advance,

R.

Dear @mikelavigne : I missed this post.

 

" nothing personal regarding my dropping out of this discussion.

i simply do not see the value to me in this thread. unfortunately a frequent Audiogon experience. "

 

It’s something a little " weird " that in a thread even with no personal value you posted : 19 times.

I don’t questioning you but for me any single audio thread has an inherent value. Your be-loved Studer’s were severely questioned that today are not any more a reference and was fully explained why. If I were you I will take more serious that subject and think to change all your references around your R2R units. That " think " has a value for me but not for you and is up to you.

I think that you should know by years now that the worst cartridge design to track and pick-up the higher recorded information from the LP grooves are the cantilever-less designs and even that not only bougth it that kind of cartridge design but touted on its quality performance level even that its tracking issues because it’s not only that can’t pick-up average recorded information but that additional to that those kind of cartridge designs develops higher tracking distortions and yes you are happy with. Again, is up to you.

I think that you have some level of mix-up or at least is what in this thread showed when said that digital is no reference at any reproduction step for be incomplete and in other thread you posted that’s " complete ". Additional I can’t understand what means that " complete " and you " refuse " to explain it.

You just posted , good.

 

Btw:

 

" with the Lp Dizzy’s trumpet hits 95 watt peaks on my dart 468 monoblocks. at the same SPL’s the digital hits 45 watt peaks. ,...... the peak watts are an objective measurement of signal energy. "

That’s can confirm what I said about " higher distortions " during LP tracking. That signal energy with the cartridge came with way higher distortions NOT musical information and distortons counts for those higher SPL high peacks. Yes, you love those distortions.

From there you conclude that digital " smears peacks " and truly your conclusion makes no sense .

 

Do you know why amplifiers can go into clipping stage. what helps to goes to that clipping stage? developed DISTORTIONS through the system ( not only in this range but mainly in the H: range. ) and in your specific case by the cartridge. Digital? well is the new reference with way lower distortion levels and for whatever reasons you listen digital the 70% of your listening time, I repeat: for whatever reasons .

and that’s what you like, fine with me.

 

R.

R.

Dear @mijostyn  :  " my own purchases it is about 50/50 LPs to digital files. "

 

That 50% on LP means that all those LPs were/are ndew/inedit recordings and with no re-issues? and that 50%  of LPs how many bougth you by month?

Totally new LPs have several problems to appears in the market. Even that exist over 100+ pressing plants in the world many of these are small labels that over the time were and will disappears leaving only the around 10 " big " pressings plants that can't fulfill the artist/audiophiles needs of new material on LP. Pressing plants is a business and for the consumer prices does not goes to high the plants needs to presses 10K+ samplers of each new LP title. In the last 10 years the LP prices gones higher and higher and this tendency is far away to dissapears but the other way around: will be higher alaways.

Other problem is that vinyl is not a friendly build material ( petroleum. ) with the erath enviroment and will disappears sooner or latter. From some years now some small or maybe not so small plants are trying that the sources of that vinyl change it for other new material friendly with the enviroment and as a fact there are a few options that could or could not help about because those new materials needs to pass the " test time " of playing.

 

So, in a few years your 50% will goes to maybe 5% or just zero. So enjoy what you have.

 

R.

Dear @mijostyn  : " my own purchases it is about 50/50 LPs to digital files.  "

 

What does that say? , its says what you states.

 

Mijo, there are different contexts where any one could be rigth.  Normally audiophiles aroun sites as Agon, wbt, ve,  ak and the like bougth digital LP re-issues and some ( the smaller ) new realeases and normally we buy through: ed, md or as. You can go to all those sites and read that the people that buy LPs normally are re-issues.

USA is only one of de world countries and belongs to one of five world continents. I want to put an example of wht'a happening in my country where exist around 35KK of young people and where just does not exist LP stores and the audio dealers you can count with the fingers of your hands and nothing more. The majority of those people not even know of the existence of vinyl and almost all use streaming to listen the MUSIC they like. You can see in the subway or in the street those young gentlemans listening MUSIC through they cell phones through apps as tiktok, spotify, prime amazon and the like.Do you think that in the countries of Africa exist " hundreds " of LP stores? however the KKK people there listen MUSIC through streaming/apps digital and you can go around other world Continents and you will see.

Well the majority of the population in the world are  those kind of people that does not cares about analog rig but only " listen " and they does in that way. Along that there are thousands of " hackers " that listen by free as many world plattforms where you can listen by free and no suscription at all.

In that whole context my post is not false in any way. Period.

Nothing is exactly as Billboard says.

 

In reality I don't care on that issue because from some time now, like it or not, digital is the King no matters what.

R.

 

 

 

 

Dear @mikelavigne  :  " i used the word silly to express..."

If it's silly then who cares to follows posting? obviously you cared.

" about the original question.  "

 

Well, in my first post I posted my opini'on and here pasted:

 

"""  Congratulations for those both new cartridges you own.

Your question could be controversial because any cartridge quality performance levels depends on with what kind of quality analog rig ( inlcuding phono stage. ) is surrounded and depends too of each cartridge owner skills for its accurated overall set up.

Cartridges as yours or coming from VDH or Ortofon or Koetsu or the Etsuro or, or, or,... are the best for its owners but at the top cartridge models in reality I agree with @mattmiller : no best but a little different. Every one of us have our own and very specifics targets and priorities with MUSIC/sound reproduction. 

Btw, maybe both of your cartridge could be best " serv " by a different tonearm and obviously a different better phonolinepreamp. At both sides you will experience better SQ with both cartridges that the one you are experienced rigth now. ""

 

Contrary to you and even that through your posts exist contradictions I never posted that's that contradiction is " silly " or any other agressive adjective but the other way around because I care of what you say and asked you 3 times to explain your words used for analog/LP and digital: complete and incomplete respectively.

Now and for the four time you are refusing to give us your answer to us. You are still refusing about even that even the gentlemans that like to " applaud "  want to know.

 

I really hope and wait for your explanation of those words used as characteristic by analog/LP and digital MUSIC reproduction alternatives in a home audio system.

 

Mike, that is the real issue not any more the thread question.

Now, I appreciated that instead to stay in " dead silent " status quo at least  tell us that you don't want to explain about . That's it.  Remember that Those were your  " words " not mines and from there came almost the next thread posts till now.

R.

 

You posted something contrary of what you are asking me:

" fair enough, my source is second hand feedback from other users. "  

Another second hand comment:

"  he says the DaVa Reference is looking those level in the eye (at 1/3rd to 1/6th the price) and he is very impressed...."

 

Look:

"

analog is complete. complete wins hands down. every time.

i listen to digital for access to new music and for ease of use. listen to digital 60-70% of the time. but ultimate performance does not involve digital.....in any step "

but before that you posted that streaming " digital completeness ". How could that happened to you?

 and I'm not telling that that is " silly ". Why should I?

 

 

 

 

Dear @lewm : " was more interesting than this banter about digital vs analog. ",

obviopusly that that is for you but everything were said/posted on the issue thread with no single doubt to add nothing about.

 

In the other side your " banter " subject is interesting for some other gentlemans but you when they posted about and that " banter " really started when ML posted on that complete " analog/LP " characteristic vs the incomplete digital version, that was what he stated here and latter on he posted something as " digital at any single step is a reference ". Along all those he posted in other thread that in his system streaming listened experience he touted the " completness " of digital and he named what he was enjoying that time.

Controversial point of views and that’s why I asked to know what means his " complete " against " incomplete " mediums characteristics but he never gaves us an explanation that I think because he does not wanted to does.

For me, everything is clear from 10 years now on that regards, good that for you is not interesting subject. Btw, normally when I talk of analog I’m reffering mainly to the LP alternative.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.