What is the “World’s Best Cartridge”?

Cartridge rental. 100% cash deposit. I can’t think of many things more delicate and expensive. I will not touch one (and I shouldn’t, I am a cluttered). My dealer installs them.

Even if I had a dealer nearby, I think I would prefer to learn to install them and adjust them myself (as I have). If you rely on the dealer you aren't going to be able to swap cartridges on a whim when you want to compare them.

@ghdprentice , If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen. I would never let anyone else touch my turntable. The question would be what percentage of turntable owners who might be interested in a site like this are comfortable handling cartridges. A site like this could actually save people a lot of money. You might discover that you can not hear the difference between a Windfeld Ti and an MC Diamond in your system. That is a $5000 savings. 

Sadly, cartridges are too easily damaged, which makes rentals a tricky proposition. I mean, we still see the "my cleaning lady killed a $5K Dynavector" posts every month - too many audiophiles still haven't got their "cartridge safety" routines down pat. You could charge the renter for damage, but that will lead to a lot of "you damaged this cart" / "no I didn't - CC chargeback incoming" quagmires.

You might discover that you can not hear the difference between a Windfeld Ti and an MC Diamond in your system. That is a $5000 savings. 

I agree with the point you're making, but the differences between cartridges of different designs like that are extremely audible. Nobody who can't hear that difference will get to the point of interest in $5K+ cartridges. However, it IS possible they might prefer the cheaper cartridge, due to either system matching or personal preference. 

Dear @newtoncr : Good for your link. Unfortunatelly it did not says something way different of what already was analised in this thread with MLavigne ( you can read in this thread from page 7..) and adds other no sense ( for me ) subjective issues.

" dava seems to check the most boxes. "

with out objective merits because its high FR response that’s what that gentleman listened and not awared of it. Even that a welcomed information.

Anyway thank’s.

R.

@mulveling , that is why you hold the cost of the cartridge in escrow. Yes, in some instances one might actually prefer the less expensive cartridge. 

A cartridge screwed down tight inside it's box is virtually impossible to damage without obvious intrusion into the shipping carton which with insurance would have to be covered by the shipper. The actual cost to the customer would be whatever it costs to get a stylus replacement from the original manufacturer. The customer then owns the cartridge which he or she could sell on Audigon as a new cartridge as long as they do not break the seal. So, it is not a total loss to the customer, certainly an inconvenience. 

One of the safe guards that my dealer used was to personally install the cartridge that I was 'borrowing' himself. This was of course possible since he is local to me. But it did away with the possibility of user error in the set up, Since I kept the cartridge, he did not have to uninstall it, but that was the plan if I had not. 

I am assuming that IF I had not kept the cartridge, he would have sold it as slightly 'used', but we never got to that place, Nonetheless, for dealers to have a few 'demo' cartridges on hand, install these etc., would be good idea, albeit fairly costly and time consuming...although at the prices asked for the top flite stuff??

@mijostyn 

which with insurance would have to be covered by the shipper

have you tried to get a parcel carrier to cover shipping damage? Not gonna happen ime. If the parcel goes missing maybe, otherwise...

​​​​​​

Dear @daveyf  : I think that the dealers/distributors need to ask the cartridge manufacturers for some kind of $upportfor have 2-3 cartridge demo samples depending where the dealer cities whre they have the store.

I think that that kind of effort could be a shared distributor/manufacturer  " couple ".

R.

Cartridges are in their very nature fragile and the most careful of individuals has a user error within them, as we are fallible.

I not only know the Stories, I know individuals who are the Story, when a £4-5K cart' is exposed to the moment of lack of finesse, the sick feeling goes to the core, and then there is the repair bill to receive as the final bitter pill to swallow. 

Encouraging individuals to experience items they may not be used to in any great capacity is not a bad thing, their confidence will grow through the disciplines being learned for the handling and the interaction.

Making an ease of access to extremely expensive fragile items, for those with a wanting skill set and lack of confidence around Cart's, such as the types assumed to be added to a selected itinerary of Cartridges as home trial demo' items.

Where the method to acquire is seemingly using mail order and forum support as the only guidance, might lead to 'ends in tears' stories, if a certain type of user takes a punt on a discounted Cart' as a Trial Period.   

Finding an inroad to being able to offer a Cart' at a 'Trade Price' or 'Near As', is looking the safer bet, as the individual can seek out a Cart' that is off interest, get it demoed through a Professional Service, 'if available', and shortlist it for a time when they would like to commit to a purchase.

If when monies are to be spent, and they are still attracted to one of the items in an itinerary available from a Member of this forum, then all well and good, especially if the discounted price is covering a Warranty and Aftersales Support that is matching that from a Dealership. This seems to work, as the Buyer will have confidence in their decision being made, and not feel they are lumbered with something they are not really wanting if an unwanted damage happens.  

Plenty of Permutations to be considered when devising such schemes.  

you well know that the remaining members at WBF are all buddies of Steve or worse, Ron. They all follow the same guru and believe the same old BS that the guru pushes. Horns rule, and gear that is non-resolving and as bright as the sun is looked up to, probably because these folks have lost their high frequency hearing years ago!

@daveyf I'm active over there; AFAIK I'm not on the inside there but no-one messes with me, which isn't to say we always agree. I've heard the story about inside buddies or something like that about that site before but I really don't know what that means. I've been on there nearly from its inception. I'm assuming your post above is a bit hyperbolic.

@solypsa , Yes, I have and recently. I ordered a pellet grill from the BBQ Guys, a Memphis Grill. The crate was dented in one corner. I took a picture of the box with the delivery person standing next to it. I then dissected the crate taking pictures along the way. There was over $700 in damage. Memphis grill had the parts to me in three days I gave the itemized receipt to the the freight company and had a check two weeks later. You have to be right on top of it or you can get screwed for sure.

@atmasphere , daveyf hyperbolic? Not on your life. We all know your hearing is in the trash by 8 kHz😁

Dear @mijostyn  : I know that rigth now you are enttilted with the very low impedance cartridges and current mode phonolinepreamps and that you really like your MSL.

Things are and I could think you already " hear "/read about  Top Wing cartridges that time to time few audiophiles posted about in Agon and I just remember it and maybe is " your " time to listen it, maybe not is up to you.

Here two reviews and somewhere I read that outperforms MSL: who really knows?. First the top of the line and then the next down step:

I am a believer when it comes to expensive cartridge purchases to be only from a authorized dealer. In my case, after I had bought the cartridge from my local dealer, I noticed after about a week that the cantilever was skewed. My dealer agreed and took the cartridge back to the manufacturer’s rep for correction under warranty, which was done. BUT If i had bought a gray market cartridge, I believe I would have been in the cold when an issue like this occurs.

@atmasphere My experience at WBF was typical of a lot of forums that are run by hobbyists as literal soap boxes for their POV’s. I contributed a lot of content there initially, but was soon in their bad books, simply because I did NOT agree with their guru and his BS. My thread about the new Alsyvox speakers drew the most ire, mainly due to the fact that the resident horn lovers felt threatened. To that, the agenda of the owners is pretty clear. Personally, I think the while forum is now a total joke, so if that’s hyperbolic..so be it.

@rauliruegas , Sorry Raul, not a fan. A $16,000 cartridge better be using something other than an aluminum cantilever with an antique high mass stylus mounting system seen in cartridges 40 years ago because the low mass resins we use to glue them in place today were not available yet. Even the higher end DS cartridges use a better stylus mounting system than the one seen in the "Top" Wing. Yes, I really like the MSL/Seta L combination, but there are also two more top flight cartridges coming, the MC Diamond, which I know you like and the Lyra Atlas Lambda SL, which I know I'll like. Which one will I Like best? It really does not mater, but if one should fall behind I'll sell it and try another. The plan is to keep three available so that if something should happen to my financial situation I have enough cartridge to get me to the end of my life or hearing, whichever comes first. 

I have been talking to Frank Schroder. He is going to make me a new CB with a Rosewood arm wand. I am going to make a new plinth for the Sota using the same species of wood. It will extend down to the surface of the granite cutting off that low frequency feedback problem I was dealing with, and it will look a lot better. I will use the exact same chiseled finger joints you see in the maple skirt which look a lot nicer than Sota's radiused off version,

Raul, I read the Suzuka review. In one sentence, I got the impression these are Low Output Moving Magnets. How else to account for the statement that the stylus is user replaceable? But elsewhere the reviewer states he set capacitance at 300 ohms, which could just be a typo, but one that should have been edited out prior to publication. Alternatively to a LOMM, which seems unlikely, the uniqueness of the cartridge might owe to using a single magnet and coreless coils in an LOMC , but where is the brilliant invention? AT has been making amorphous core LOMCs for a while, which is probably a better idea. The reviewer also suggests that using a coreless coil makes the transduction more efficient, where the opposite is true and probably accounts for the very low output.

@lewm , this is what happens when you hand the marketing over to a firm that has  very limited understanding of what is happening at the sharp end. I lost interest at the site of a primitive cantilever and diamond. Raul is being comprehensive and inclusive. He knows how interested I am in alternative cartridge designs and nobody ever mentions these cartridges. The DS and the strain gauge get more air time. I really wanted to like the strain gauge and came very close to buying one but history has taught me to avoid overly impressive sounding cartridges as that first impression usually means there is something wrong. Moving on to Cherubini's String quartets highlighted the defect as a stridence in the higher frequencies that gave violins an artificial edge. I am lucky as my daughter plays the violin so I am very use to what a live one sounds like. The Hyperion sounds a lot more like my daughter's violin. 

@daveyf , I have developed relationships with several online stores that have handled some issues beautifully. I can highly recommend Elusive Disc, Upscale Audio and The Cable Company. All three have been very accommodating. I could not ask for better treatment. 

The Top Wing Suzaku is clearly a moving magnet.

My understanding is that the low output is a consequence of using a very small coil to minimise capacitance and minimise inductance in the overall design - meaning the resonant frequency is very high, making the cartridge less susceptible to phase shifts in the high frequency compared to most MM's. The high frequency response in the audio band relatively unaffected by loading.

One might argue that the moving flux design by Glanz is probably more linear.

But hey  if you buy the Top Wing at only US$16000, you only get a little phase shift, and for another US$17000 you can buy an LFD phono cable voiced to your requirements - I'm sure with LFD's experience in gluing bits of wire they could even put hairs on the chests of Dolly Parton.

Having said that I haven't seen a Top Wing owner that does not own other megabuck cartridges with quite different flavours, so it may not be the singular magic bullet that some folk might be hoping for.

My concern would be quality control - Fremer got a dud, and then a good one - 50% failure rate. Now if they were an Australian car manufacturer they would have blueprinted the cartridge and juiced it up before delivery for review.

Now where did I leave that ELP laser turntable...

In contrast to the ever spiralling cost of phono cartridges competing for the ‘world’s best’ nomination, I noticed an ad on eBay about a ‘new’ cartridge called Fidelix MC-F1000 direct coupled MC at an ‘introduction price’ of €3,5k. In today’s high end audio universe this is now considered mid price.

As the model number and description suggest, this is a redesign of the classic Victor MC-L1000. The biggest technical difference with the Victor is the much lower source impedance of 6 ohms compared to the Victor’s 22 ohms, suggesting fewer coil windings and/or stronger magnets. At this price it could be a real giant killer. I own and cherish a Victor MC-L1000, which can still keep up with current top systems. 

@dover 😂

I thought we’d agreed not to judge a cartridge by its individual parts list (aluminum cantilever). Anyway, I never before heard of Suzuka or Top Wing, so thanks, Dover. Stanton and Pickering marketed LOMM cartridges many decades ago. There’s nothing new under the sun. I’m glad I still have a virginal Stanton 981LZS.

“Magnet on the cantilever“ is the definition of a moving magnet cartridge. In the other hand, I respect Raul’s fund of knowledge. 

The top four members of Soundsmith's range are all low output (0.4mV) despite being MI like the rest of the range. They are recommended for use with an MC input or SUT.

@dogberry

From my experience the combination of both the Soundsmith MI & SUT’s - not recommended. SUT’s have too many issues ( colourations and phase shifts ) to be included in any high end solution.

In my view you need a high gain phono that that does not use SUT’s and importantly has the ability to vary the loading from 400-1000 ohms to get the best out of the Soundsmith’s top MI’s.

Here is an interesting article on SUT's. As can be seen from the plots, they are sensitive to loading on their primary and secondary windings, including capacitance. Get it wrong and their frequency response and phase curves aren't pretty. But get it right and they are pretty darn good. Obviously choosing the best curves here, but you can see plus or minus 1dB and 1 degree from 20hz to 20 kHz for the EM/1A. Further, the errors occur in the extreme bottom and top ends of the curves. Contrast this with the phase curves shown for multi driver loudspeakers, which are often orders of magnitude larger than this and typically occur in the centre of the audio band.  With a well-designed and correctly loaded SUT, I don't think that we need to worry about phase errors. . https://intactaudio.com/SUT%20design.html

Cheers. 

@dover Agreed. The Sussurro MkII sounds best in the MC input with loading set to 800Ω. Even then, it isn't in the running for World's Best. Writing this I wonder if I should have tried that trick with the Grado Statement 3. Its 1mV output is rather in no man's land, and it bores me through the MM input.

@richardkrebs 

As can be seen from the plots, they are sensitive to loading on their primary and secondary windings, including capacitance. Get it wrong and their frequency response and phase curves aren't pretty. But get it right and they are pretty darn good. 

So with the Soundsmith you have a cartridge that is sensitive to loading and transformers can be adversely affected when loading ( either primary or secondary or both ). It's a recipe for disaster unless you get a transformer built specifically for the cartridge and you know your targets. 

And then there are the colourations ( which you ignored ).

In my case I have a custom built moving coil step up that is current based ( designed and hand built by a cartridge designer ) which does not have these issues, but more importantly has much higher resolution than any transformer I have tried thus far - and this includes some of the most highly regarded transformers ever made. Obviously the current based step up is unlikely to work with the Soundsmith MI's and I am not prepared to lower the resolution of my system to accommodate one cartridge.

Dover

The point I was making is that, contrary to what you said, properly set up SUTs do not exhibit problematic phase errors. Nothing more, nothing less 

cheers 

For whomever it was that was dissatisfied with the Sussuro loaded at 800 ohms, I strongly recommend you try 47K ohms and then move down in increments. It might be that the Sussuro will bloom at higher load resistance. Although it has a low internal resistance (10 ohms, I think) it like all MI types has inductance much higher than an LOMC with similar voltage output and internal R, which also is why it is problematic to match it with any SUT.

If you mean me, @lewm , I think it is at its best at 800Ω. I had previously tried it as an MM input, with the volume cranked up and it didn't matter what the capacitative load was set at. Turns out one should RTFM.

Even set as an MC input, with some fiddling with the resistive loading, it still doesn't match the sheer joy of the Nagaoka MP-500. It seems like we don't quite know what we're about with MI cartridges that have cantilevers just yet.

doggie, You did not mention whether you ever went ABOVE 800 ohms for load R.  Into an MM input, the problem may well have been lack of gain, rather than the load resistance.  It would be worthwhile to try a high load resistance, e.g., 47K ohms WITH gain that is sufficient for its very low output (preferably 65db or more but maybe a bit less depending upon the gain of your linestage, if any), if you own a phono stage capable of both.  As you know, MI cartridges are not new.  B&O, Acutex, Nagaoka, Grado, and a few others, not to mention Decca, have been making them for decades.  What is new about some of the SoundSmith models (and the new Grados) is their low output.  Ideally you want a high gain phono stage AND a high load resistance, or much higher than 800 ohms, anyway.  I've gotta believe you could get more out of your Sussuro. 

@lewm 

I experimented with a Soundsmith Paua and a bunch of phonos - tried loading above 1k - didn't work - optimum was around the 800 ohm mark. Caveat here is that on that particular cartridge the electrical specs were changed quite significantly through that cartridges lifetime. So with any SS cartridge you need to check the specs for the specific cartridge you buy and check SS loading recommendations for suitability.

@richardkrebs 

But get it right and they are pretty darn good. Obviously choosing the best curves here, but you can see plus or minus 1dB and 1 degree from 20hz to 20 kHz for the EM/1A. Further, the errors occur in the extreme bottom and top ends of the curves. 

Unfortunately you have highlighted the issue -

Every time I reinsert my current based step up to replace a SUT I get more bottom end extension, the bottom end is far more accurate, cleaner, better timing, and more extended top end, along with the increased resolution - no downsides.

If you are still running SUT's in your home-brew preamp, then I would suggest you investigate alternatives, if you are interested in improving your system. 

Nothing more, nothing less.

@lewm Soundsmith, as you may know, recommend using an MC input with 63dB gain. Loading is to be a minimum of 470Ω, as anything lower results in loss of high frequencies. 470 - 1000Ω is suggested.

I have the option of 10, 25, 50, 100, 400, 800, 1200 and 47kΩ on an MC input. I find Dame Janet Baker and the first of Elgar's Sea Pictures useful for this as she has a rich contralto for assessing the top end, and the tympani provide plenty of bass

47k leaves a high end peak that makes for a sound I call thin and scratchy. 1.2k improves on it, 800 is nicely balanced and rounded (probably the best and most accurate setting), 400 becomes a little bit lush, being biased towards the bass with the top end rolled off (I rather like it for musicality!). Going down to 100Ω goes too far in that direction, rather like playing clumsily with tone controls. And having reached that point and listened to the 'Sea Slumber Song' four times I didn't go lower. I'm rewarding myself with Jacqueline DuPré on the other side now.

I'm quite happy with the sound of the Sussurro at 400-800Ω: the place where it fails compared to the London Reference is in something mysterious. The latter makes me want to tap my toes or conduct as I listen. It's nothing to do with imaging as I have but one ear and no directional hearing, so no stereo for me. The sense that I'm listening to something 'live' is what I mean. I have to attribute it to the speed and responsiveness of the cantileverless Decca. And having had the first movement of Elgar's cello conc. on the Sussurro, I'm now repeating it on the other table with the Reference. The difference isn't just in the attack of the pizzicato, even the slow bowing on the C and G strings have a richer timbre with each little catch and slip of the rosin on the horsehair audible. That's what I'm going to miss when the Deccas die.

There’s no argument with your direct experience. I am a fan of MI but i don’t own any of the low output types. By now I’m surprised that other owners of Sussuro or other low output SS cartridges haven’t chimed in.

@lewm , No need to own any of the low output types Lew. Peter admitted to me that he only makes them due to market forces. He feels his high output cartridges are better, which is why I bought the Voice several years back. It is nothing but a high output Sussurro. He does not make a high output Hyperion because people looking for high output cartridges will not spend that much on a cartridge. Why is a Sussurro $2000 more expensive than The Voice? Only, and I mean ONLY because people looking for low output cartridges will pay that much, "because the market allows it," was Peter's direct response. Peter also feels his Strain Gauge is his best cartridge, which is certainly open for argument. I will say that The Voice is a spectacular cartridge for the money. It is balanced, tracks beautifully and is well put together. It is also far less demanding of phono stages and will make a relatively inexpensive stage sound stellar. My old PH3 SE sounded glorious with it.

At any rate I am very convinced Soundsmith cartridges are significantly better than any moving magnet design using similar styluses and cantilevers, and better many than many moving coil cartridges of similar construction. In my experience only when you get to moving coil cartridges in the $10,000 range with similarly priced phonostages are they superseded by a noticeable margin. 

The problem with moving coil cartridges is that it is pitifully easy to make one but very hard to make one at the state of the art. Since they garner a lot of money the profits can be huge, which is why there are so many cottage manufacturers and terrible cartridges.   

.

Although I question the notion that the Sussuro is naught but a low output version of the Voice, and PL probably would too (because Sussuro intro post dates the Voice by several years and because there’s a big price gap between the two populated by several other models) I can see that your preference for the HO cartridges may hold water, given that my very favorite vintage MI cartridges are all HO types. Interesting to note that the recommended load R for Voice is greater than or equal to 47K ohms.

@mijostyn You must have caught Peter L. in his cups to make such damaging admissions!

@dogberry , Peter is a very honest fellow. I asked the question and he answered. I had trouble understanding why he would make such low output cartridges with a design that could easily do higher outputs, increasing dynamic range and signal to noise ration. "Market forces" was his answer. 

@lewm , don't believe me Lew. Check out the construction. Same stylus, same cantilever, same suspension and chassis. The ONLY difference is larger coils.  Peter is a smart businessman. You charge as much as people are willing to pay. Why would you do anything else if you run a business that supports a workforce of people. 

There is also present a Marketing Snobbery, where one has to protect the Old-Guard, by keeping the Riff-Raff out, keeping the product for the ownership of the well-heeled only.

This as a marketing strategy certainly lends itself to being attractive to a certain proportion of clientele, who pay oodles for the tailor-made service.

Seeing as the only places that these Types of Clienteles converge is at commercial ventures, or specially arranged presentations/demonstrations, it is not difficult to keep the clientele separated from the Riff-Raff, which really leaves the exclusivity through pricing as an attraction to a product.

Low Volume Turnover - High Mark Up for a Product that has a mysterious allure, that captures the interest, will be an ideal USP to win over a certain type of customer.

Imagine the little extras like having a one-to-one dialogue with a proprietor of an establishment, it can't get more intimate as an experience than that, and surely worth investing in.    

I think once upon a time there WERE two versions of the Voice, one of which was low output.  There wasn't much difference in cost. Do you REALLY know that the Voice and the Sussuro are exactly alike other than coil windings?  There are at least half a dozen Soundsmith cartridges that now bridge the price gap between the two, so why would PL even need to make them structurally alike?

re Soundsmith cartridges

Same stylus, same cantilever, same suspension and chassis. The ONLY difference is larger coils. 

This is not correct.

The more expensive low output SS cartridges ( Paua, Sussuro, Hyperion ) have much better channel separation - 5db improvement - and channel matching is much better - 0.5db vs 1.0db

Of course each model also has a different cantilever material - aluminium, ruby, cactus.

It would be interesting to know whether the lower channel separation in the high output versions is direct related to the larger coils.

@lewm ​​@dover , Al I can tell you was that this was confirmed by Peter. We spent 2 hours together listening to the Strain Gauge and Hyperion at his listening room talking mostly about COVID. At the time I was already using The Voice.  I do not know if they spend more time fine tuning the Sussurro. I did not ask that question. As dover suggests the variation in channel matching could well be a function of the larger coils but I do not know that for sure. The low output version of the Voice is the Sussurro except I think the Sussurro came first. 

Over the last few years I've been using a Kuzzma CAR-50 then the Sussuro MKII and most recently a MSL Gold Sig. All have sounded wonderful BUT the MSL (after a minimum of 25 hrs) is just in another world "in my system."  The system hasn't changed, using a Kuzma 4Point on either a Kuzma XL or Stabi R table into a NVO all tubed phono stage. The MSL has more extension at both ends of the spectrum a more solid bass, more transparency and just sounds more like real instrumnets, it just sings and lets me forget about the gear and enjoy the music. 

To the best of my recollection, The Voice was SS’s first cartridge after they had already marketed the SMMC line , which are basically copies of B&O cartridges. But you may be correct that Sussuro came very soon after Voice.

@lewm I owe you thanks. I tried the same process with the Grado Statement 3 and it has transformed the cartridge from being a boring but honest into a spirited creature that just about beats out the Sussurro. It likes 100Ω best of all. I put the gory details in the 'Moving Iron Adventures' thread.

@sksos I am really liking your assessment of the MSL Gold Signature, it is a Cart' that is creeping through the undergrowth of various threads, with many who are willing to stand up and declare 'I am impressed'.

Where does your report stand out and get my attention, the TT in use is one I have looked at with growing interest and one that I am impressed with. The design intent for the build, is somewhere that I lean toward when considering a TT or Modification to a TT. Another Item of interest that has caught my attention, is that the Head Designer of Micro Seiki and the Founder of Tech Das Hideaki Nishikawa has been impressed by the Kuzma Designs, maybe only for an import to Japan reason, as Mr Nishikawa is also a CEO of a High-End Equipment Import Company. If the Kuzma can draw him in when visiting the Trade Shows in Europe, why shouldn't it draw me in as a distant observer.

The report catching my attention does not stop there, you use an all Valve Phonostage, of which I have a Bespoke Built Valve Input / Valve Output design, which is my keeper Phon', I can't foresee myself separating from it.

It seems you have experienced over the past period, approx' £20 000ish of Cartridges across Three Models, and from the Three the MSL Gold Signature has been the one that is seemly worthwhile to make old bones with.

It is this type of report that adds value to my visits to Audiogon, Thank You for this contribution.

I am at some point going to get a listen to a MSL Cart' from this level of production. Using one's words used as an assessment is totally OK to form a shortlist, but to form an individual view on a Cartridge and to fully comprehend the impression it can make needs time made available to be in front of it.   

But you may be correct that Sussuro came very soon after Voice.

Thats correct - I heard the first Sussuro and his first Strain Gauge cartridge not long after the Voice had come out. The Paua came out after he visited New Zealand - name comes from our Paua - Maori name for seasnails which is a delicacy down here.