@mikelavigne
Hi Mike I followed your thread on the phono cable sea on WBF.
Whilst I do not doubt what you have heard in your system ( and I assume no-one here has heard your system, so comments are speculative ), and I have huge respect for your commitment to analogue, I have concerns re the LFD phono cable.
Firstly I am a little jaundiced by the brand since a friend was loaned a pair of LFD Reference mono blocks and quite frankly they were awful. So bad we pulled a pair of unmodified Leak TL12plus monos out of the cupboard and confirmed our fears the LFD had less resolution and information than the old Leaks ( driving some Von Schweikerts ).
I have also heard the LFD phono at length - again underwhelming, not as bad as the mono's but midfi at best.
With regards to the LFD phono cables I note from the WBF thread that the development for the more expensive model from the lower one basically involves playing around with physical construction and attributes and listening. There is no science discussed.
The warning signs that this cable is simply a tone control, is twofold -
1. Adding bundles and combos of wire a la Yamamura is trial and error.
2. More importantly you must ask the question based on the following observation
A moving coil cartridge is an inherently symmetrical device ( coil and 2 tails ).
A MC step up transformer provides an inherently symmetrical input ( coil and 2 tails).
Therefore why would you use an asymmetrical cable where the +ve and -ve sides are different in this application. It makes no sense.
Have you ever tried balancing a wheelbarrow with one side heavier than the other ?
Unfortunately, there are a lot of awful cables out there regardless of price. ( I use to distribute several high end cable brands back in the mid 80's and have tried multitudes including many different constructs and many prototypes from various manufacturers ). Most high end cables are a set of compromises chosen by the designer - hence the endless debates. When one of my pals tries a new megabuck cable out, I usually grab a pair of my old cables from the 80's, take them over, do a blind test, and hey presto the $8k cables usually go back.
In my own system I use 2 phono cables depending on the cartridge - both twisted pair plus shield from 2 different manufacturers.
I have one that is highly capacitive that I use for all MC's ( the best phono cable I have tried ).
I have a different phono cable that has very low capacitance that I use specifically for moving iron and moving magnet cartridges. ( With moving magnet cartridges the electrical parameters of the phono cables and phono input form an electrical circuit that determines the cartridges high frequency linearity and phase response, unlike MC's ).
Similarly with SUT to phono - my reference phono cable is too capacitive and I have a specific lower capacitive cable for this application - in this case it is not twisted pair but a speciffically woven symmetrical litz wire loom that is closest to my reference without the negative impact of capacitance in this application.
Interestingly on WBF there was a thread on what cables do CH Precision owners use. I find it interesting that half a dozen owners use half a dozen different interconnects between the same pre/power. You cant explain this by the system whole, because the pre/power are all the same - ergo, these guys are buying tone controls, not reference cables.
Hope this has given you something to ponder - if I were you I would grab a few pairs of well designed basic cables ( symmetrical construction not asymmetrical or coaxial ) and go back and compare to your LFD - it might be illuminating, and educational - one way or the other.
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Actually the brain is an analogue processor, so I would assume that if one were brainless, then indeed digital may be best option. However for most of us, with more than the one brain cell, we find great pleasure in listening to analogue.
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I believe that a cartridge and a speaker, by far, contribute the most to SQ.
I would dispute this assumption.
In my view the TT trumps all. I'd rather have a the best TT I can buy with a $500 cartridge than a top cartridge with less than optimum TT.
In your case a tonearm upgrade would arguably unleash more performance than changing cartridges. I currently have a Garrard 301 with FR64S in my B system and have set up many arms on Garrard's including Moerch, Helius, Kuzma to name a few. Each of these arms offers a different perspective on any given cartridge.
I have owned or set up most of the cartridges you mention -
Personally I prefer the top Soundsmith MI's to their strain gauge.
The Decca MI's are superb, but can mistrack unless perfectly set up in an appropriate tonearm due to the lack of suspension. They are now out of production.
I also have owned a few of the cantileverless MC Ikedas from the 80's - they are the MC equivalent of the Decca.
Current favourite of current production cartridges would be Van den Hul Grand Cru which I have recently set up on a Kuzma 4Point11.
The reality though is that cartridges are so dependent on TT, tonearm and phono stage interface that they can only really be judged in the context of the supporting components, and the best cartridge is the one that works best with your particular arm and phono stage.
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Amazing.
We used to have digiphobes in the 80's, now we have analphobes.
This is supposed to be a thread about cartridges and it gets invaded by some wags who seem to have got lost - there is a digital forum for you guys.
If any of you actually understood nyquist/digital theory, you would know that digital is only a little bit out ALL of the time. I'll give you a clue - try building a DA converter not using sine x/x in the calculations to eliminate truncation errors that occur on almost EVERY calculation.
It was the 3M contract to store the US census data on tape long before Sony etc that gave rise to digital storage - given the rapidly increasing population and additional data the US government were running out of space and needed to derive a system that could up the storage capacity using analogue tape. The 3M mathematicians built the mathematical logic that was used for red book CD.
The funny thing is by the time Sony/Philips launched red book CD they were all dead, and no-one at 3M realised the significance of their old patents. Its in the maths.
End of story.
By the way I have a few recordings of some of my audiophile wankwank records on DSD, and funnily enough even playing through a $40k digital front end using DSD direct, my TT extracts more information. What can I derive from this - nothing, zilch. Too many variables to reach a conclusion.
The only thing I can say conclusively is that on large scale classical music, with a top analogue system I am engaged, with a top digital system I often fall asleep.
Make of that what you will.
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@goofyfoot
You might be amused to know that Decca, in the 1950's, before stereo became common, often recorded in stereo but released in mono because they thought they would have to pay the musicians double if the musicians knew they were being recorded in stereo.
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Only to relate that digital is everywhere. Same wit medical instruments or robotics.
Stupidity is everywhere too, but we don't aspire to that standard.
You'll have to come up with a better argument than that.
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from many years now all financial transactions in the world including corporation as Wall Street used and are using DIGITAL TECHNOLOGY
That seems a bit myopic - don't you know many "financial transactions" are completed through hawala compared to Wall Street or indeed the black money market where goods and services are used for financial transfers.
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If analog could not compete quite simply we wouldn't be having this conversation! Instead it would simply be gone and no further talk about it other than historical context.
Indeed, and many musicians, famous and not so famous, who still prefer to record in analogue would be gone as well.
There are numerous who split their recording - for example use digital for vocals, but analogue for instrumentation.
Each system has its pros and cons.
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@mikelavigne
tell us about your opinion about the best cartridge.
He cant. He spent over 10 years trying to convince everyone that MM's were as good as the best MC's, but apparently after an epiphany has recently concluded that nothing can touch his favourite LOMC.
I figured out he had no idea after he started making erroneous comments on rare cartidges I actually own. Example being the Dynavector Karat nova 13D - at first he tried to claim a Karat Nova 17D was actually a 13D, then after I explained the difference and serial number nomenclature, he got another ( second hand ) one.
But the apex of lunacy arrived when he advertised a "real" Dynavector Karat Nova 13D here on audiogon with the cartridge mounted in the unique headshell upside down - (1st video below ) Furthermore it appeared to have a non original cantilever - Frankenstein ( 2nd video ). This from someone who claims to be an expert.
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I had a customer who was phobic and often listened whilst checking his prostate. He often gave seat of the pants opinions on sound quality. Perhaps you could explain is he listening in analogue or digital ?
Have you had the wax removed from your ears ?
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@rauliruegas
You have now posted thousands of words on this thread over the past month but have still not answered the OP's question.
Did you understand the original question.
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@pindac
Many years ago I bought a Leak Stereo 20 off a guy and he gave me all his classical 33rpm records, including many superb recordings from the 50's/60's, for free when I picked the amp up.
I asked him why - he said he preferred 78's and was sticking with them.
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@terry9
The Hyperion description from @richardkrebs is similar to what I've heard.
The SS strain gauge cartridges take it up another notch.
From the Paua up the SS are superb on classical.
Not the best cartridge I've heard - but very good. I've heard quicker, more dynamic, more resolving.
On the other hand I have heard some of the current top of the line contenders that have obvious flaws in my view. The SS are like Spendor speakers - they just get out of the way and let you listen in to the music. Beautifully balanced.
Tracking is very much a function of arm cartridge matching and set up as it is the actual cartridge. The fact that SS can tailor the cartridge to your arm is a bonus.
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@mijostyn
I listened extensively to Soundsmith's Strain Gauge cartridge with records I know intimately. It has excellent transient response and a very vivid signature partially because it is too bright. It's tracking ability does not come close to that of the Hyperion.
Well there you go.
I listened to the Soundsmith Strain Gauge cartridge set up by Peter personally, using his own phono stage in a friends system. Spent the evening listening - would never have described it as bright ( and I cant stand unnaturally bright or grainy top end ). Perhaps the brightness was related to your tracking issues.
Have you had your hearing checked for Hyperacusis lately ? Given your stated desire to listen regularly at over 100db perhaps the ears are not in great shape.
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The Verismo is robably a better value.
As Freud would say
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If SQ is perceived as poor, increasing SPL makes mediocre SQ less tolerable, in my experience.
Bang on.
And it could be distortions from the system or components, or room itself that is the issue.
In some cases the listeners ears.
If you ask an audiologist you would be surprised at how non linear most folks hearing is, and of course often times people are unaware of hearing damage that may be sensitive to certain frequencies.
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This is an instance where the necessary aspects of the AES48 can exist at the source and the load but in order to operate 'properly' the interface cabling must also be done to the standard (twisted pair with a shield) and I have only experienced a few cases where using this interface worked the same or better than the 'conventional' method.
@intactaudio
You may have misinterpreted my post.
I use the word symmetrical deliberately rather than the word balanced. Mikes phono cables are single ended. I believe through both listening experience and electrical theory that the cable loom between the MC and SUT should be symmetrical in construct.
This is my issue - quote from WBF on the LFD phono cables
The hot and the cold conductors are totally different from each other which is used to enhance the sound quality. This cable can be exclusively voiced to suit various systems RRP £16995.
Why an asymmetrical construct for a symmetrical source and destination. Its like having a highway with 4 lanes going north and a B road going south. What is the science here ? How is there a benefit from loading +ve and -ve legs on the MC differently.
Voiced ? really, 16000 uk pounds for "voiced".
Do we want Freddy Mercury on helium, do we want Beyonce's lower treble whine that gets removed on the mixing desk to be accentuated, who decides what voice to present when manipulating these wires ?
All cables degrade the signal, no exceptions. Best cable is no cable.
Next best is the one that does the least damage to the signal.
Unfortunately in audio the least damaging would be one designed and built specifically for the source and destination components actually used, and backed up by measurement . In fact MIT used to offer this service many years ago - if you provided them the components they could measure them and build the optimum cable loom.
I know I could improve the $16k LFD cables audibly just by removing the plastic shroud for starters, getting rid of the heavy metal connectors and baubles and other jewellery hanging off of these wires.
Anyone out there can prove this easily - if they have speaker cables with plastic/polyproylene shroud - cut the plastic shroud off and listen. Those gaudy multicoloured plastic shrouds do a lot of damage to the signal, as do oversized heavy metal connectors. This is just for starters. Even heat shrink can degrade the signal.
My reference phono cable is around $20k US. It is not the price I have issues with, its the asymmetrical construct of the cable in this application. along with no explanation of the science other than - its a mixed bag of lollies, carefully selected after 30 years of eating lollies. Oh and if you have a favourite lolly I can mix a new bag of lollies with your favourites included.
Compare this LFD scenario to a friend who designed and built his own speakers amps etc.
One day I found he had some new speaker cables that he had constructed - the positive and negative legs were asymmetrical. I asked him what was the science.
He gave me an answer that included 2 points -
The +ve and -ve speaker cables were designed as part of the crossover and built/measured so that each of the speaker drivers saw the precise loads and crossover slopes he intended.
Secondly he explained that relative to the incoming power from the mains the +ve speaker wire was on one side of the mains transformer and the -ve speaker wire was on the other side directly connected to the mains. Ask @atmasphere about finding the centre point of a mains transformer.
That is what I call science, not I tried some wire and found one that sounds good.
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your MSL could be the MSL version of the Opus
No, MSL is the designer & manufacturer. The best from that designer is the top MSL - currently the Platinum Signature.
The Air Tight Opus and its derivatives are designed and built by MSL and voiced to AT's requirements - they are trickle down products.
Why get the apprentice when you can have the master.
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Bass and drums have a solidity usually reserved for Hi Res digital.
Really - many musicians like Neil Young still prefer to record in analogue, most agree that bass in particular is better when recorded in analogue. Some record bass in analogue and voices in digital.
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@edgewear
Yes you are correct - brain fart moment - platinum wire.
I stand by the coarse, in that I mean compared to the gold & copper coils - but it is very subtle. could be sample variations.
Enjoying immensely a custom Grand Cru I recently set up on a friends Kuzma combo.
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They both use the same SH-uX core which is Matsudaira's trademark.
The core materias used in various cartridges go under the radar - no one talks about them. I have a hunch from listening to many cartridges from the same manufacturer ( alnico, samarium cobalt, platinum etc ) with different core materials that we are listening to the core material as much as the cantilever/stylus/generator design.
I cant stand the platinum magnet Koetsu's. Don't know why - technically, but I've heard enough koetsu's of all types from the 80's onward black - rosewood - onyx golds to know there is a plasticky quality that pervades the platinum magnet Koetsu's compared to Suganos earlier cartridges. It has nothing to do with rolled off top end or lush midrange - there is a synthetic quality from mid to upper mid that grates - I'm thinking may be the magnets.
The only other platinum magnet cartridge I've heard is the VDH Colibri - and to me that sounds slightly coarse compared to his others, but not as bad as the Koetsu's.
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The best cartridge is simple, one that meets your listening biases and your pocketbook, that works on your tonearm in a synergistic manner…and plays well with your phono stage.
Yep - thats what I posted back in August.
Agree - synergy rules ( and I don't mean the SPU )
Heard so much top end stuff sounding awful due in main to mismatching and poor set up.
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The Top Wing Suzaku is clearly a moving magnet.
My understanding is that the low output is a consequence of using a very small coil to minimise capacitance and minimise inductance in the overall design - meaning the resonant frequency is very high, making the cartridge less susceptible to phase shifts in the high frequency compared to most MM's. The high frequency response in the audio band relatively unaffected by loading.
One might argue that the moving flux design by Glanz is probably more linear.
But hey if you buy the Top Wing at only US$16000, you only get a little phase shift, and for another US$17000 you can buy an LFD phono cable voiced to your requirements - I'm sure with LFD's experience in gluing bits of wire they could even put hairs on the chests of Dolly Parton.
Having said that I haven't seen a Top Wing owner that does not own other megabuck cartridges with quite different flavours, so it may not be the singular magic bullet that some folk might be hoping for.
My concern would be quality control - Fremer got a dud, and then a good one - 50% failure rate. Now if they were an Australian car manufacturer they would have blueprinted the cartridge and juiced it up before delivery for review.
Now where did I leave that ELP laser turntable...
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@dogberry
From my experience the combination of both the Soundsmith MI & SUT’s - not recommended. SUT’s have too many issues ( colourations and phase shifts ) to be included in any high end solution.
In my view you need a high gain phono that that does not use SUT’s and importantly has the ability to vary the loading from 400-1000 ohms to get the best out of the Soundsmith’s top MI’s.
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@richardkrebs
As can be seen from the plots, they are sensitive to loading on their primary and secondary windings, including capacitance. Get it wrong and their frequency response and phase curves aren't pretty. But get it right and they are pretty darn good.
So with the Soundsmith you have a cartridge that is sensitive to loading and transformers can be adversely affected when loading ( either primary or secondary or both ). It's a recipe for disaster unless you get a transformer built specifically for the cartridge and you know your targets.
And then there are the colourations ( which you ignored ).
In my case I have a custom built moving coil step up that is current based ( designed and hand built by a cartridge designer ) which does not have these issues, but more importantly has much higher resolution than any transformer I have tried thus far - and this includes some of the most highly regarded transformers ever made. Obviously the current based step up is unlikely to work with the Soundsmith MI's and I am not prepared to lower the resolution of my system to accommodate one cartridge.
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@lewm
I experimented with a Soundsmith Paua and a bunch of phonos - tried loading above 1k - didn't work - optimum was around the 800 ohm mark. Caveat here is that on that particular cartridge the electrical specs were changed quite significantly through that cartridges lifetime. So with any SS cartridge you need to check the specs for the specific cartridge you buy and check SS loading recommendations for suitability.
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@richardkrebs
But get it right and they are pretty darn good. Obviously choosing the best curves here, but you can see plus or minus 1dB and 1 degree from 20hz to 20 kHz for the EM/1A. Further, the errors occur in the extreme bottom and top ends of the curves.
Unfortunately you have highlighted the issue -
Every time I reinsert my current based step up to replace a SUT I get more bottom end extension, the bottom end is far more accurate, cleaner, better timing, and more extended top end, along with the increased resolution - no downsides.
If you are still running SUT's in your home-brew preamp, then I would suggest you investigate alternatives, if you are interested in improving your system.
Nothing more, nothing less.
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re Soundsmith cartridges
Same stylus, same cantilever, same suspension and chassis. The ONLY difference is larger coils.
This is not correct.
The more expensive low output SS cartridges ( Paua, Sussuro, Hyperion ) have much better channel separation - 5db improvement - and channel matching is much better - 0.5db vs 1.0db
Of course each model also has a different cantilever material - aluminium, ruby, cactus.
It would be interesting to know whether the lower channel separation in the high output versions is direct related to the larger coils.
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But you may be correct that Sussuro came very soon after Voice.
Thats correct - I heard the first Sussuro and his first Strain Gauge cartridge not long after the Voice had come out. The Paua came out after he visited New Zealand - name comes from our Paua - Maori name for seasnails which is a delicacy down here.
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