What are the best loudspeakers under $4000 to re-create lifelike piano
Over the past 4 months I've spent time with five loudspeakers. On a scale of 1-10 I'd rate them as follows in their ability (with my equipment in my room) to recreate a lifelike piano. Tekton Lore - 6.5 (great scale but tonal accuracy and clarity somewhat lacking), Kef LS50 - 7.0 (moderate scale but slightly better clarity and tonal accuracy) Kef R500 - 8.0 (great scale and very good clarity and tonal accuracy), Spatial Audio M3TurboS -8.1 (great scale and very good clarity and tonal accuracy and very smooth) Magnepan 1.7i - 9.0 (very good scale with excellent clarity and tonal accuracy - very lifelike).
In your room with your equipment, what loudspeakers are you listening too and how would you rate them for their ability to recreate a lifelife piano and if possible a few comments as to why?
snapsc: As requested above, my thoughts on how my Ohm Walsh 2000s "do" piano: I have owned these speakers since 2009, and IMHO, are timbre champs. They also excel at getting transients right, a must for piano reproduction. I do use mine with a pair of Vandy 2Wq subs, which would be a budget buster for you, but I would encourage a home audition of whichever model is the right size for your room (guide to room size is on the Ohm web site).
Piano recordings are all over the map in terms of true-to-life sound. But I have found better recordings of piano to sound terrific on my 2000s. I really love the piano that accompanies Norah Jones on "The Nearness of You". It is well recorded, and causes an emotional response every time I hear it on my rig. But it is important to identify some really well-recorded piano pieces for your auditioning. Listen for resonance of the sound board on the left-hand keys, and a combination of smoothness and transient snap on the right-hand keys. But know that some recordings preclude the ability to hear these things on any loudspeaker, regardless of price.
Finding the perfect speaker for true rendition is a quixotic quest, especially for your budget. I play a baby grand and the musical acoustics while sitting behind the 88's is different from other areas of the room. In addition so much of the staging and sound quality is influenced from the recording engineers. Not to discourage you but I suggest that you audition a brand that has a legacy in speaker design and build. My listening preferences is mostly classical piano, oboe, cello trumpet and horn. The sound quality can be stark.
Audio Note speakers reproduce piano amazingly well, are easy to drive, and sound great overall. The AN-E/Spe in that ad for $3k are a flat out steal, I have AN-J’s which are smaller and also do piano well a great value new around $5k plus stands. No affiliation with the seller just a AN fan.
All of the advises offered here are of limited value because they are from audiophiles who work only in 2D and do not know the properties or DNA of the components with which they work. Only by understanding and applying properties can you achieve the 3D sound such as you can get with TruFi. I now believe that TruFi also has limitations and my early experiments to reveal the incompleteness of TruFi as it presently is shaped, understood, and implemented are yielding results which I expect to share with this group sometime soon next year!
Yes, reproducing piano is hard. But all is not lost. I saw this thread and immediately thought about Maggies. Biggest you can find/afford/power. Others have mentioned Vandys and Quad. Sure. There are many other choices for used speakers available on Agon right now that can do a respectable job with reproducing piano. Problem is, will they be the “best” in your system with your other gear in your room? That requires trial and error.
Here is the list of potential piano stars available as of today under $4K:
Aerial Acoustics Model 9 ATC SCM-40 Monitor Audio GX200 Revel Ultima Studio PSB Imagine T3 Harbeth HL-5 PMC Twenty.24 ProAc Response 3.8
I grew up hearing a grand being played daily. Yes it’s hard to reproduce. . .
I recommend getting a pair of 20.1 Maggie’s or Martin Logan CLX’s used. They are close to your price range on the pre-owned market if you’re patient.
Then drive them with some clean power with a low noise floor and do a sub array for the lowest octives. My dad (the pianist) came over to hear and was stunned at how real and powerful the system can sound. It is tough to get great recordings that actually offer the clarity and dynamic range of a real piano. I think a lot of properly set up top end systems can re-create the experience but few recordings stand up to the test. For me the sounds of playing: fingers on keys, pedal work, and pianist breathing heard in the quetest moments of decaying notes are the eerie real qualities of the live performance.
Pianos recorded in different venues by different engineers sound different. Period. I find that the wider the range of my system (using a couple of subs) the more enjoyable pianos sound, but all are different (did I already say that?). I recently worked as the sound mixer for an Eldar show (a physical young piano genius with a hot little trio), and after setting up the 2 condenser mics I generally use for piano…lid open…he thought we should instead try a large diaphragm single condenser I had hovering over the drums, and stick it in the piano with the lid closed as much as we could close it…sounded great. A unique approach to get what the artist wanted and some EQ to keep the piano mic from low end feedback and there we went. Was it authentic? I heard Brad Mehldau at a hall near Harvard recently playing un-miked, and although the hall has decent acoustics as far as that goes, much of what he was doing was inaudible to much of the venue…authentic, musically brilliant, too quiet for that room. I had a great time anyway.
Taking another listen to the VA Liszts recently, I remarked that I had never heard the attack on the leading edge of the piano notes rendered in such a life-like fashion. Of course, it will depend a good deal on the recording.
@snapsc- I would venture that if a system produces piano convincingly it ought to do most everything else well, given not only the range of the instrument, but the other demands placed on its reproduction-- dynamics, power, timing, harmonics, etc. When I listen for evaluation purposes (as opposed to enjoyment), I try to use a range of different material, almost none of which is "audiophile"-- I don't mean that in a pejorative way, just that I don't want records that are known sonic spectaculars to find the weak points- i want to hear what a system can do "on average" since much of what I listen to was never released in audiophile quality issues though some recordings are still pretty killer. (and some aren't).
This is easy. Build the Linkwitz LX521 system. Easy to do for $4000 or less. And that includes amplification.
Siegfried Linkwitz is one of the premier audio techs on the planet, so you already know his design is superbly engineered. It doesn't take a genius or $1 million worth of shop gear to build them.
Build the LX521 and have something equal to the big $60k systems you see here.
So, for some people, reproducing a piano may be less meaningful than reproducing an acoustic guitar or a clarinet. In theory, we could have xxxx more threads to see what is recommened for other instruments or voices. Then we could tally the results and see what loudspeakers were good for everything. Then we could rank order them by price so as to help newbies get the best for the least $$$. The fun point of this thread so far is not what people don't like but what they do like and why and what they have have moved on to.
Most domestic audio rigs can not reproduce the sound of
grand piano such as Steinway-D if recorded with no compression. Among Jazz
labels DMP was the only label that dared to record piano with minimal
compression but unfortunately they are out of business, Telarc was also into
audiophile jazz recordings but theirs were not up to DMP standards. Among
classical labels BIS records everything uncompressed, if you really want to
test a system reproducing grand piano try BIS-1580, Mussorgsky Pictures
performed on Steinway-D by Freddy Kempf, the finale of this work will bring the
house down if your system can reproduce it in a realistic volume and survive.
$4k goes much further if you buy used, All sorts of possibilities, Vandersteen, Magnepan, ML CLS, Quad, that would mostly exceed your cap new but are available in good used condtion in that price range.
Choice for you will depend on other equipment, room size desire for deep bass etc.
I can understand why you, or anyone else for that matter could be discouraged reading this thread, but for my part - with my post above - I’m trying to get after what it would take to approach a fairly realistic(!) reproduction of the (grand) piano, no less, an instrument I’d regard as one of the absolute most demanding for ANY speaker, regardless of price, to tackle. Any sought realism with this instrument and its reproduction is a daunting task, certainly if you uphold what it really sounds like live.
I’ve never heard your Bryston speakers in question, but I’ve read very positive reviews of the larger, floor standing sister model. I can only assume Bryston is consistent with the quality across their range of products, and for this to naturally translate to your speakers as well.
Be that as it may; if you like ’em that’s all that matters. Enjoy them and your future ventures into "audiophilia," but, if I may: remember to attend acoustic live concerts to really bridge your own sonic findings in audio equipment with that of a real reference. To my mind it could have you save a lot of money, and importantly by-pass a tendency in "audiophilia" to close its walls around itself and be less susceptible to marketing drivel.
One important factor not explicitly mentioned is the ability of the speakers to create a realistic size of the piano according to the type of the music and the venue. In my experience, the larger panel speakers completely miss this criteria regardless of how well they might reproduce the timber or tone. To my ears, the closest sound (and size) to a real piano, especially jazz genre, came out of a pair of full range single driver Lowthers in a horn-loaded enclosure, the Charney Audio Concerto. May not go low enough for some western classical piano pieces but for jazz or blues the best I've heard.
@inna You really do surprise me by saying if it is digital forget it. I have heard some digital master recordings that if we had access to would dispel that myth straight away. The way I see it the recordnig process has a lot to do with it at the microphone end. We are by the way trying to record sometime levels of 110db. I have heard some valiant attempts to portray it but they were usually through very high end active speaker systems with massive active sub woofers also and in recording studios I used to frequent. Only then would I say we are getting towards it in any medium. In the 70s I used to burn out bass panels on my Quad 57s by trying to replicate what I had just heard from the concert hall previously ( not recommended as it used to cost a fortune with each visit to Quad). No I havn't heard proper portrayal from any domestic setup that I could say, yes that sounds like a full range piano recording that I am listening to. If you go to concert hall recitals with any regularity you soon get to know the sound the recording engineer is trying to capture as I say with good and not so good results.I remember years ago going to The Queen's hall in Edinburgh to hear Boris Beresovsky play Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition. When It came to The Great Gate of Kiev at the end of the piece the younger females in the audience were cringeing and some were even holding their ears as we all know younger females have better hearing than most of us men.That was the first time that I knew what a Steinway Model D concert grand was actually capable of. As an aside The BBC were recording that concert that night and the later broadcast bore no relation to the experience in the hall.
I'm not the "audiophile" everyone else here is, however I'm trying to upgrade my system to get to that level...I might get flamed here, however I bought a set go Bryston Mini T speakers and am floored by the neutral and wide spread spectrum they cover. (20Hz to 20Khz) they produce a very natural and clean sound. From all I've read it does matter what's driving them but they are solid performers....And they are less than $4K new with a 20 yr warranty.
A well recorded, uncompressed, Steinway-D needs a fairly large, efficient, and expen$ive speaker to reproduce its full fire power at a realistic volume ...
Indeed, an important aspect here is sheer radiation area coupled with high efficiency to give way to the physicality and full dynamic range needed for the more authentic reproduction of a piano. Add to that coherency, relative timbral accuracy, not least (transient) speed/dynamic prowess, and a low degree of smearing through the whole of the (wide) frequency span - as rightly pointed out by poster @james_w514 into the sub-region as well, all of which is no small task.
Listening to a grand piano at a relatively close distance can be an extremely physical, dense and dynamically (and emotionally) startling experience, just as it can be a very liquid/floating and gentle instrument to take in. The trick is to incorporate the whole of the envelope of these traits mentioned into a speaker, the "gentleness" as well as the sheer force of the instrument, for it to be a more convincing reproduction - not something realistically attained with a <$4,000/pair speaker. This is not strictly what the OP is inquiring on, though; for that to be accommodated several other posters above have chimed in.
I actually purchased the LS50s based on piano reproduction. My budget was Eur 2000. Previously I owned B&W685 and they were terrible in the upper piano registers (too forward and thin). I tried B&W PM1 and I think piano sounded fantastic on them, but this is a bit of a laid back speaker and the treble is tilted upward. It lends nice air and stringy definition of the piano. very nice for my taste. But I eventually returned the pair because I felt them a bit too laid back and I felt that the first order crossover crossed too high is too specific sounding. I settled on the LS50 with best blend of faithful piano reproduction and lack of coloration.
I know how live piano sounds, I attend many concerts and take my daugter to classes. Sha has played Steinway, Bossendorfer, Feurich, uprights, etc. It’s very hard to describe what real piano sounds because there are many variables, like the condition and design of the piano, the room, the listener’s position and finally and most important the recording. Most of classical recordings are far field and the there is too much room contribution. Most of jazz an especially pop is close miked and it often sounds like we never really hear it in a room or concert hall when played unamplified.
I would wholeheartedly recommend LS50 for piano reproduction. (with or without a sub) B&W PM1 for a more musical and airy reproduction.
Theil 3.5's with 300-400wpc behind them of very good solid-state amplification and a really life-like tube preamp. These Theils have the most neutral and natural harmonic structure of any loudspeaker I've heard ... and I've owned Maggies, IMF Studio Monitors, and many other fine loudspeakers. With proper amplification, they are smooth top-to-bottom, have clarity, and can "sound". I have attended hundreds of chamber music performances involving pianos as well as dozens of jazz club performances, and I can close my eyes with these Thiels and believe I am there with a live piano in front of me.
I had been playing my Spatial Audio M3 Turbo S speakers thru AntiCables speaker cables ( copper) , then was totally blown away how much everything improved when I switched to Analysis Plus Silver Oval 2 cables . My class D amps are the Gilmore Audio Raptors . At this point I can not imagine, nor have heard, better . Treble has more clarity with "bite" , but in a natural way and acoustic bass has more of the sound of the " pluck" of the string .Greater clarity and depth to the soundstage . Voices are more real . Don't limit your speakers with lesser cables .
+1 on the Bösendorfer. Beautiful speakers made by one of the best concert piano makers in the world. Interesting cabinet design, world class finishes and very impressive piano replication. Not capable of ear shattering volumes, but a nice listen. VC2 or VC7 models.
I also like Bill Evans, and if you listen to his vinyl through the Heresy III speakers with a tube amp it allows for an essential Beatnik experience. I put on my black turtle neck, drink a martini (dirty…did they have those in the 50s?), smoke (now legal here) pot, and hope a nuclear war is averted. I like the live Evans stuff with the clinking glasses and crowd noises….a fave.
I would like to add one thing. My Zu Omen Defs sound wonderful with well recorded pianos. However, the Zu's will make poorly recorded material more apparent as well.
I think it varies from revision to revision. Best to send that question to John Strohbeen at OHM for the best answer. Mine are one revision before the current, acquired about 10 years ago now.
They are very transparent and sound quality will vary widely. Totally dependent on how well you feed them. Most every change I make in my system changes the sound. The Chord Mojo DAC is most recent addition and it is a superb sounding device in every way. The basic characteristics of the sound the Chord makes with my headphones carries over exactly to my audio system. Everything is more dynamic, clearer and easier to identify in the mix.
Listening to Gina Bachauer play Chopin Piano Concerto #1 on Mercury Living Presence 35MM recording on my rig, you won’t hear a much better piano recording. Maybe on all mbl system. Setup is Squeezepad player running on Ipad to Chord Mojo DAC to Audio research sp16 pre-amp to BEl Canto ref1000m amps to OHM Walsh F5 speakers. Like being there sitting next to her playing.
Snapsc…I bought the Preludes years ago after hearing them at a friend's house…he basically did the research for me. They're amazing with huge magnets on what are 3.75" (I measured them…not 3.5" dammit) woofers, and clean down to maybe 50hz where they drop off. Great piano since they have great mids and a coherent overall tone.
Yeah, one could not underestimate the importance of the source. Just a thought, I did not audition these particular models, there are two pairs of Focal Utopia full range speakers on Audiogon. They are above $4k mark but may be worth a look. Utopias are often used with tube electronics, though. Of what I see today here those would most likely be my choice for the kind of music I listen to. It includes bands with piano players. $10k total budget is very tough even with one source and medium or smaller size room.
The $4k was just a number that might be the speaker portion of a $10k total budget...which any non audiophile would think is crazy. Interstingly, a number of posters have suggested speakers ranging from $2-4k that with a good recording and the right source and amplification might get you close to a realistic piano presentation.
OHM Walshes with proper amplification (80 watts or more depending on room size) do a great job. Many models under $4K. That would be my choice for SS amplification.
The more efficient Klipsch Heresy III is a very good choice also especially if using a lower power tube or SS amp.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
