We Can Make Classic Cars Outperform Today's "SuperCars": Why Not Vintage Audio?

@ketchup Did ya read the whole thing or just cherry pick the line. If you can show me a 70s era classic that run a sub 10 second quarter, have a top speed of over 180 miles and hour and brake 60 to 0 in less than 110 ft, pull over a 1 G on a figure 8 using 70s era components and is street legal in California running unleaded I’ll agree whole heartedly. Until then buckle up and trust your airbag

@raam 

Rick, I want to be more like you when I grow up.

This is a fun comparison although it may be kind of oranges and apples. I have a couple of old muscle cars, one being a 65 GTO that has a built 455 with fuel injection, a bunch of brake and suspension upgrades and it goes and handles way better than it did in 65. That being said at my age driving that thing for 500 miles on a trip would not be any fun.

One area where vintage stereo gear can compete with newer gear is turntables and for sure tuners. I have a Thorens TD 124 that has lots of upgrades and mods and it is very satisfying. My Tuner collection consists of a Mac MR 74 , Pioneer TX 9500II and an Accuphase T101. All have been restored and modified and are glorious sounding from a good FM station. Speakers and amps have progressed so much over the last 50 or 60 years that it might be hard for the older ones to compete.

Did ya read the whole thing or just cherry pick the line. If you can show me a 70s era classic that run a sub 10 second quarter, have a top speed of over 180 miles and hour and brake 60 to 0 in less than 110 ft, pull over a 1 G on a figure 8 using 70s era components and is street legal in California running unleaded I’ll agree whole heartedly. Until then buckle up and trust your airbag

Did you read the thread?  Because that's not at all what it's about.

Gentlemen,

Great posts!!

I am not suggesting that we "paint a mustache on the Mona Lisa" with this topic. If you love everything about your vintage gear (including its current market value) then leave it alone.

But, for others it doesn’t have to be a "this" OR "this". It can be a "this" AND "this". We don’t have to make the decision whether we want the vintage look and feel OR great sound. We can have both. It’s like having your vintage gear. And, listening to it, too. The maturity of the "aftermarket performance audio" industry is not well developed, to say the least. I use the parallel to cars as proof positive that older cars can perform as well as their contempory counterparts - within the specific performance parameters selected. Today’s vintage cars perform better, handle better, are more comfotable, reliable, and safer due to the success and ingenuity of the aftermarket. Many vintage car enthusiasts love their old cars -- AND, enjoy an elevated driving experience over showroom stock. Likewise, may vintage audio owners would appreciate a higher level of performance from their gear, but simply aren’t aware that non-intrusive upgrades exist, or don’t know how to connect to them.

@gphill 

Nice cars.  Nice audio gear.  And, nice post.

Another thing overlooked by the media that likes to hyperventilate everything is our solar system moved into a much higher density part of our galaxy which is causing a great deal of the issues we are facing. It is also now starting to move back out of such density so things will get better but how long will that take, how will we adjust to it, etc....................if not for the power mongers controlling the absurdly corrupt  governments, including ours, we would be far more able to deal with these changes.

That said, I actually believe we are heading, as a civilization, to a much better way of being though a bit painful to get there, I sure hope I am right. (this has nothing to do with borders, we need to act together worldwide)

My current system (destination) is built around two key components that represent what has become an industry standard for “hot rodding” vintage gear.

A Woodsong Garrard 301 and ESS Quad ESL 57s.

Two cottage industry companies among several others dedicated to bring great vintage gear up to, and beyond, current industry standards.

The 301 brought to new standards and well beyond. And the Quads brought to new level specs (although new parts make them even better).

Thanks for the level of participaton on this topic.

The last discussion I started had fewer posts than an invisible fence.

@crustycoot 

It not difficult to pick up your level of passion and intensity related to the climate.

Its a complex subject and I hope we adopt "correct" policies to produce the best outcomes.  In a podcast I viewed last week, the presenter estimated that the cost of human life to bad environmental policies was between 1 and 10 million lives, and counting. Getting it "right" matters.  If we can free ourselves from the shackles of the rigidity of political partisanship, we might just accomplish something for the greater good.

@waytoomuchstuff - lets think of the vehicle as the speaker.
Maybe we think of the brakes as the damping factor, and the engine as the power supply.

Then the racing line is like the audio signal. And the amplifier is the driver.

One can have a go kart, with a 250cc engine in a light and easy to push vehicle (speaker), Or one can have a massive car with a massive engine and massive brakes. We do not need a massing engine in a kart, but we certainly need one to push around a hard to drive vehicle. 

If the driver cannot hold the line, then it will not accurate.
If they are sawing the steering wheel, maybe it is on-line, but at least the tyres will be getting more of a workout than they would with a smoother input.

And if the driver does not trail brake, but snaps their foot off of the throttle and then turns the wheel, the thing is not going to hold line.

Any modulation of the braking and steering, and deviations from the line would be akin to distortions in the audio signal.

That is about the best I can come up with.
It seems closer analogy than the drag race one.

I was always told by car enthusiasts that these souped up vintage cars can put up these performance numbers because they don’t have to meet todays emission, mileage and safety standards. It’s as simple as that right?

why hasn't there been more effort to make a sonically neutral stereo speaker system produce a holographic stereo image independent of listener position?

@holmz Impressive analogy.

It all works well until you fracture a voice coil?

@seikosha Not sure I would call it "simple", but the items you mentioned are certanly a factor. Manufacturers are very concerned about reliablity and serviceably -- as they should be. They also have to be concerned with "balance" which to say the overall driver experience, comfort (including passengers), safety, and esthetics are major factors. With an old car with an emphasis on performance, you don’t have to drag all those other costs, developmrny times, regulations, etc into the mix. You just make it go fast. Or, stop fast. Or, pull the G’s you want in the turns. Or, all the above. You could layer those emission requirements for aftermarket gear on a vintage car and still produce good performance numbers. It would just be much more complicated, burdensome -- and expensive.

Ain’t nothing to it but to do it. 

"If one has a Marantz model 7 preamp, 8B amp and 10B tuner, you do not even think about "modding" it. Same with Mac."

I don't agree.Life is short. If it's in a museum, it needs to be original. If it's in my system, I want it to sound as good as possible.

But, if it was free, who'd a feckin' Camaro over a Veyron? And yop speed is just whacking off. Lap times are what matter. Apex speeds, etc. Caring about 1/4mi and top speed is like saying the lowest system is the best, nonsense  And completely unlike audio, the driver's the most important factor in a car. I would also reiterate, going in a straight line is boring. Who wants something to last 6sec? It's much better to race and get a corner inch perfect for 30mins or 6hrs. Just a nonsense comparo. 

I disagree. Life is short. If it is in a museum, it needs to be original in all respects. If I'm using it, I want it to sound as good as possible. That's what it's here for 

@holmz Impressive analogy.

It all works well until you fracture a voice coil?

i use leafs 😎

Once something has been modified, it is no longer original.  It was true when I swapped out components on my bicycle to when I swapped out power supplies on a couple of Marantz 22XX receivers to whatever.  If I ever were to sell them, I would get whatever a modded item is valued at.  Fortunately, I gift out stuff when I don't want it anymore.  

I don't always get half the transactions on American Pickers.  I can't imagine spending good money on any item just to leave it in the typical beat up, as in condition that so many items are in.  No big fan of rust.  (My dad was a picker, too many weekends spent with the Chief picking through junk yards as a kid).  Caught an old re-run of the AP show where they were picking 5 vintage TTs and a 2265 Marantz receiver.  For two self professed, life long audio gear experts, Mike and his brother did not sound like they knew their stuff.  

Back to the topic, once you mod a unit in a significant way, it ain't the same unit.  You have modernized it to some degree, so it is not vintage anymore. 

Rich 

@rar1 Well stated, sir.

"You have modernized it to some degree, so it is not vintage anymore." Our thoughts are in alignment here. As I stated in one of the posts, when you take a nibbler to the back panel of something, there’s no going back. Modifying gear would certainly have an effect on its resale value. Thus, my catagories of "stock", "personalized" and "modified". We’re made a lot of car comparisons in this thread. I’d say most "car guys" cruise around in "personalized" vehicles, where very few have "modified" vehicles and even fewer have "stock" vehicles. Although the Holy Grail of collectables is "showroom stock", we’re also seeing "personalized" or even "tribute" vehicles scoring big bucks at auctions. This is relevant, or course, to the class of the vehicle. "Messing" with a vintage Ferrari would have greater penalties than yanking the original drivetrain out of a Tri-5 Chevy and replacing it with some modern "motivation." Or, putting the drum brakes in a storage container and opting for disc brakes all around.

Another pertinent item is the value of vintage cars vs vintage electronics. While serious car projects can easily propell you into six figures, the bulk of esteemed classic gear may fall into the mid 4-figure range. There are exceptions, and those pieces should be bubble-wrapped, put in a climate-controlled space with a barbed wire fence errected around them. But, it’s a comparison that really not a comparison. You may loose $50k on a vehicle because you were a bit too enthusiastic with your "personalization", but the "fees" attached to aggressive mods on your hifi gear are far less. In otherwords, in terms of our net worth, it probably won’t move the needle. Even if the piece is used to prop a garage door open. (I have a friend who scored an old Mac amp that was being used to hold a garage door open. He offered to replace it with a brick from Home Depot and owner went along with it. True story.)

"Nostagia" has a different meaning for all of us. A good example of a relic from a by gone era may border on the threshold of "sacred" for some -- especially those who have an emotional attachment to that particular piece. Hey, I have a pair of listening chairs up in the loft that gave me comfort while listening to music when I was going thru some pretty tough times. They are not for sale. I work one day a week with my tech for the sole purpose of keeping good gear out of the dumpster. I’ve learned never underestimate the emotional value of bringing something that’s been in storage for decades back to life. It’s routine to see grown ups brought to tears when the front panel lights up, and music comes out of these boxes. Especially those pieces formerly belonging to a deceased family member or friend. I’m considering the purchase of an old gas station about a half hour from my home. There are enought automotive collectables per square foot in, out, and around this old building to make it interesting as an investment. But, a stronger motivator for me -- it’s just really cool. American Pickers would have a good afternoon hanging out there. So, I "get" nostalgia, memorabilia, and emotional attachment to old audio gear.

That being said, it’s hard to be persuasive when your trying to describe an experience that others haven’t had to opportunity to take part in. I can only say when you take these old pieces and "get things out of the way that make them sound worse," you’d be surprised by the "audiophile characteristics" that emerge.

The ultimate tribute to a vintage piece may be to take it to a level of sonic realism that the original designers could only imagine at the time. And, it looks the same. Functions the same. And, gives the same (or, more) satisfaction as it did the day the proud owner switched it on for the first time.

Great topic! Of course in a straight line or maybe a oblong track, a car w/ enough horsepower (& high octane fuel) / weight ratio can go really fast & at its extreme needs a parachute to help stop it.

Put that older, really fast car in an F -1 style race where there’s twists, turns, continual acceleration & deceleration & it would get lapped a few times over before a race was completed. 
 

That scenario is more akin to audio reproduction that a simple drag strip. Today’s high quality audio components are better in every way compared to vintage maybe except for relative cost. The “straight line”, audio equivalent might be the old Altec, Voice of the Theater” lineup, old Klipschorns, old Western Electric horns etc can can still “smoke” most modern speakers for sheer dynamics & overall volume.  
 

That said, isn’t the current Mac M275 power amp a perfect example of the original subject matter? 60 year old design now w/ upgraded w/better components that sound better although it’s actually hard to know how much better because who has a brand new, original version to compare to today’s?

I disagree. Life is short. If it is in a museum, then it should be completely stock and original, but if I am listening to it every day I want it to sound as good as possible. 

Great topic! Of course in a straight line or maybe a oblong track, a car w/ enough horsepower (& high octane fuel) / weight ratio can go really fast & at its extreme needs a parachute to help stop it.

Put that older, really fast car in an F -1 style race where there’s twists, turns, continual acceleration & deceleration & it would get lapped a few times over before a race was completed. 
 

That scenario is more akin to audio reproduction that a simple drag strip. Today’s high quality audio components are better in every way compared to vintage maybe except for relative cost. The “straight line”, audio equivalent might be the old Altec, Voice of the Theater” lineup, old Klipschorns, old Western Electric horns etc can can still “smoke” most modern speakers for sheer dynamics & overall volume.  

Yeah. @jonwolfpell …

It is like selecting the amp with the highest slew rate.
 

Voice of the Theater, Old Klipschorns, or old Wester Electric horns are absolutely inferior to modern pro gear in every way. Some get nostalgia points for home audio, and having owned a pair of classic A7s for years (pro use) I will say those things had a nice "wooden" sort or sound. But as a modern live sound mixer who's been around a while I can safely say modern stuff, phased arrays, simple 2 way monitors, powered subs, very powerful and reliable amps...all much, much better. Also my modern hifi rig with Pass Labs, Schiit, Linn, blah blah sounds insanely good relative to historical stuff.

It is not how fast you go, but how you go fast.

It is impossible to make an old 911 handle nearly as well as a newer one. There are very few vintage pieces worth owning from a performance perspective. For the most part it is just cheap nostalgia (and sometimes not so cheap!)

Hey, guys.

Thanks for the great posts.

It occurred to me that we’ve been "hot rodding" audio for quite some time. We’ve been demoting OEM cables and storing them in their original shipping containers and replacing them with premium cables for quite some time. Even modern gear benefits from newer and/or better thinking, and we don’t need a soldering gun or mechanics tool set to improve their sonics with devices we plug in or insert into the factory chassis. As @jonwolfpell indicated, in the case of the Mac MC275, a lot of modern offerings are "factory hot rodded" versions of older (even Vintage) models. Factory authorized "hot rodders" have been around for long time in the car industry, too. Guys like Shelby, Yenko, Roush, Cosworth, Saleen -- even Hertz (I’m sure I’m missing some of your favorites, sorry) have gotten the full factory blessing -- including keeping the original warranty intact.

It was not my intent to agonize over comparisons between cars and audio. My examples were simply that the (very successful) automotive aftermarket can produce impressive results -- including topping the "best of the best" of modern day offerings in some respects. I tried to take the discussion out of the stratosphere of unaffordable cars and into the real world with the Monte Carlo reference where a mid-sized sedan with the right aftermarket setup (and, a skilled driver) can appear to break the laws of physics and hold it’s own in twists and turns against modern sports sedans.

I remember some words of wisdom from my old home automation days: "Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should." We need to take the "measure twice, cut once" approach to modifying our gear.

As with vintage cars, your approach to vintage audio is highly relevant on how you, individually, approach the hobby. It depends on if. and how, you drive it, race it, show it, see it as in investment and just wipe it down with a diaper on a daily basis. IF your time behind the wheel is just as important as your admiration for the marque, then upgrading the performance,saftety, and comfort are rational choices (could save your life in a precarious situation). And, there are pretty of resources to make this happen. As mentioned in an earlier post, IF you cherish and listen intently to your vintage gear the ultimate tribute would be to take the performance of the piece to a level that the original designer could only have imagined.

And, just for fun ...

"Big Red" Camaro

No need. My vintage amps sound exactly like my newer amps and "improving" them won't make any difference in the sound since any differences would be beyond the level of audibility.

It's already being done. The Gerard 301 and 401 turntables, the Thorens 124, various broadcast tables, etc.

In speakers, horns and electrostatics, mainly because few modern manufacturers are producing them, and when they do the prices are eye-watering.

Ditto with tube amps - circuit design hasn't advanced, but materials have.

A buddy just bought a vintage 1976 Marantz 2125 receiver for $2000+.  Why?  I don't get the attraction of vintage gear that is 46 years old.  Granted it was re-capped, but still, I have to assume that SS gear must have improved significantly over the last 46 years, in circuit design, capacitors, transistors, power supplies, etc.  So what is the attraction of old receivers, for example?  I understand that some tube designs are classics and sound great, like the old McIntosh 275, but SS gear?  what is the attraction?

@jssmith Glad your still loving the music produced by your old gear.  In your case, I wouldn't touch it either. 

As a car guy myself I get where you are coming from however I believe the difference is that in the car world, you are dealing with "man vs nature" in that we are trying to go faster or stop faster etc which is simply fighting gravity in the end.  There is always a way to go faster (or fight gravity), we just haven't figured it out (yet), and thats with any car/vehicle.  In audio, and this is general, the reference is a live performance let's say.  If a speaker can reproduce that exactly, that is the "end game". No where to go from there. We spend alot on trying to get as close as possible to that live performance(or the exact recording) we may be 99% there and spend multi thousands $ to get to maybe 99.3%. With cars, say in 1960, an 8.84 second quarter mile was the NHRA record. Today, NHRA guys do it under 4 seconds.  What will it be in another 30 years? 

Summing up, if you look at the last century vehicles have gone from model a's to space shuttles and still growing.  Speakers in their general form have not changed much..... 

@fraterperdurabo Your post deserves a "yes" on all points.

It's interesting what a 5 cent investment can make replacing the D-clip with an O-ring to keep the idler wheel in place on an old turntable. 

My topic focuses on the lack of maturity in the "performnce aftermarket" for audio gear.  Here we go, once again, on a car analogy (sorry).  I would say that 100% of the guys who drive "cool cars" are aware they can make them perform better with aftermarket parts and/or application of newer technology.  Yes, straight line grunt, but also, handling, comfort and safety. I would say that 90%+ of them have done "something" to enhance the performance of their vehicles (if they actually drive them).  Moving on to audio, I would say that less than 10% of vintage audio owners know that there a sonic gains to be made, and less than 1% have actually done something.  I've seen remarkable transformations in vintage gear while retaining its "showroom stock" appearance and functionality.  

Thanks for the post.

@moto_man It’s not very useful sometimes to take a "logical" approach to "illogical" purchases. Emotions are intangible, and if we’re trying to make the math work, we’re going to be left scratching our heads.

Big receivers were the "big block Chevelles" of the day. Muscular, and "the brand" to own was, well, THE brand to own. Porche 911s were a different critter altogether. More refined, better all around performer, but didn’t have the "correct number of cylinders (8)" and didn’t come from the correct factory (Detriot). Not even on the radar for American muscle car enthusiasts.

Now more nostalgia. Tube amplifiers, although sonically superior, were priced out of range at the time, and were more complex. You needed a preamp, AND a tuner, AND more cables, AND more space. AND more money. The power ratiings were also lower, which to raw horsepower guys were not very appealing. And, yes,, a big receiver would play louder. So, the incidence of "big receivers" vs vacuum tube separates in the homes of the "average" consumer (whateve that is) was very high. So, the walk down memory lane to tube gear is a narrow path compared to mass appeal to "mainstream" big power receivers.

Your buddy bought the big Marantz because something drew him to it. I can’t tell. you what all those factors might have been (he owned one, a buddy owned one, he always wanted to own one, or ???) but I can say for certain that sound quality "bang for the buck" was not one of them.

Who’s to say what factors contribute to someone’s enjoyment of their music and the hardware that reproduces it? He could have spent $2k on a new bike, or tire/wheel upgrade for his car. He spent it on hifi gear. And, should make us smile.

Dream on!!

@aubbrin570 

I got involved in drag racing at a time when AA Fuel Dragsters were just breaking 200MPH in the quarter mile.  Now, guys drive their cars to the tracks and go faster than that.  1,000HP "at the wheels" is not a rarity in "daily drivers" today.  My Rivian R1T (835HP) is the quickest vehicle in my barn of pretty serious hot rods.

I agree with you on the speaker basics.  I do have to inject that "the stuff inside" has gotten a lot better.  And, those old speakers can really sing when you get things out of the way make them sound worse.

I question the analogy in the premise. Can we make classic cars outperform today's supercars? I don't think so... and if you could even come close, it would be by grafting on modern technology, so... what's the point?

Do I want a '64 Mustang 289 or a 2022 Mustang Mach-E GT that goes zero to 60 a full second faster?

Okay you got me: I'd rather have the '64, but the 2022 Mach-E would run rings around the 289, and it would be comfortable and safe. (The 289, for those of us who remember, was neither.)

It's a hobby. i just do what makes me happy.

When I bought my first really good amp (ARC Classic 60) just knowing it was there made my system sound better! But maybe that's another topic...

Peace.

Faulty premise.

@fredapplegate @secretguy 

Gents,

The premise asserts that the automotive aftermarket is alive and well, producing great results, and the "audio performance aftermarket" is non-existent. I believe this is a true statement.

I'm going to jump right in and defend the modified classic car vs "supercar" statement.  When presented with a premise one can connect the dots in anyway they see fit.  That's what's fun about open forums.  That being said, my premise was not to suggest that "old cars" can outperform any supercar on all parameters, but merely gave a couple of examples of how they hold their own within a specific performance criteria when "newer thinking" and aftermarket goodies are installed.

To get right down to the nuts and (lug) bolts of it, here are some measurable outcomes:

A "street legal" '69 Camaro was clocked in the 1/4 mile approx 2 football fields ahead of a Bugatti.  This was challenged by a participant and I backed it up with the math.  600 feet might have been conservative.  By the time the Bugatti reaches the 1/8 mile (1/2 half way) mark, the Camaro is less than one second away from the 1/4 mark and going about 55 miles per hour faster at that point.

Another '69 Camaro hit a top speed of 266 MPH.  

Not long ago a vintage car (might have been the above Camaro?) just destroyed any production car in 0-100 and 100-0 times. So, that's a combination of acceleration AND braking.

I don't have good examples of small tracks and tight corners to compare to supercars, so I'll give today's supercars the advantage here.

As the lyrics of the song says: "Two out o three ain't bad".  And, if a scoring system were set up for best overall score, some would declare the old cars the winner.

Which takes us to the questions:

Can aftermarket technology make cars make more power and go faster?  Yes. Can aftermarket parts increase the dynamic range of an older audio system?  Yes.

Can aftermarket parts make cars stop faster? Yes.  Can aftermarket parts make our systems sound tighter and more controlled?  Yes.

Can aftermarket parts make cars more agile? Yes.  Can aftermarket parts make our audio systems more detailed and focused?  Yes.

Can aftermarket parts make "the ride" more comfortable, smoothing out bumps in the road and staying flatter in the corners?  Yes.  Can aftermarket parts reduce strain, harness, and listening fatigue?  Yes.

I'm glad to see this little topic is still getting "hits".

By the way, my Rivian R1T accelerates from 0-60 quicker than many exotics at 5x it's price.  But, I don't call it a supercar.  Or, supertruck for that matter.

Thanks for participating.

John

Well, if you put it that way...

Good reply. Thanks. 

Currently on local drag tracks many videos on YouTube show the family sedan Tesla Plaid cleaning up with the fastest time down that 1/4 mile track .

With audio I think we live in an era of new advances unheard of just a decade ago though with a high degree of musicality .

A great example of what I’m talking about is a reasonably priced electrostatic headphone system from WarWick Acoustics the Bravura system consisting of a all in one electrostatic energizer , chip based dac and headphones and like the Tesla is known for its speed the Bravura system is for its high level musicality .

I thought it was common knowledge that electric cars are fast for drag racing, they have instant torque, try running them in a 500 mile race.

@invalid Good point. It’s just a matter of time.

We’re improving the power/weight component of batteries. But, as one keynote speaker said at a convention I attended: "If you keep making these things smaller and more powerful, what you’re going to end up with is called a bomb."

It’s going to be interesting to see how this develops. Hopefully, we’ll have it figured out before the law requires us to drain the "fossil fuels" from our existing hot rods and turn them into museum pieces.

Gents,

We’ve had some hits and misses on this forum, including some from the OP. From what I’ve learned from you, I’d like to submit some closing comments:

- The objective of acheiving the best sound, and in particular, best sonic bang for the buck, is a completely different conversation than when someone loves their old gear, listens to it, and wants it to sound better. BOTH are valid.

- Old cars are relatable to most of us. Most old car guys have benefited from the aftermarket to make their driving experience more exhilarating, more controlled, and comfortable, or ALL of the above. These same objectives CAN be acheived with old audio as well. The level of awareness of the existence of "performance parts" or "newer technology" adaptable to their old gear is very low, and there aren’t enough of us around who have actually "modded" our gear, are quite exuberant about the results and want to share our experiences.

- I underestimated this group’s fondness of "supercars". I’m a car guy whose taken part in multiple forms of racing from an early age (55+ MPH go cart at age 11). I am in awe with esthetics, agility, and brute force of the new exotics.  Getting behind the wheel of one of these is on my bucket list. Didn’t mean to ruffle any feathers. Just wanted to make a point about just how good aftermarket parts and "newer thinking" can be when applied to old iron -- relative to modern"reference" material.

Thanks to all who participated.

It was a lot of fun to be part of the conversations.

John

A stock-appearing early Nova showed up at our local track (St. Louis area).  2-tone, white over black, baby moons.

Granite City?