Watts! How many do we need?

is it watts that drive the speaker? (I know that if I put the + & - lead of my vm on the corresponding speaker posts. I get an AC volt reading which varies depending upon volume level.) But if it is watts that drive the speaker, and every watt is equal to every other watt, what is it that makes speakers sound different with different amps?

@immatthewj Watts drive the speaker. But most speakers are designed to be ’Voltage driven’. "Voltage driven’ is a short hand phrase that basically says the amp, while making power, should be able to act as a Voltage source, which in turn means that the amp can make the same Voltage regardless of load. You are familiar with what this looks like already: if the amp can double power as the speaker load impedance is halved, then its a Voltage source.

So the short hand can be confusing. However Voltage does not exist without current being present and vice versa. So in the end Watts are actually driving the speaker.

The reason amps sound different is how they make distortion on a particular speaker. Our ears convert distortion (harmonics) into tonality in the same way that harmonics of musical instruments define the tonality of those instruments. The ear is particularly sensitive to higher ordered harmonics (the 5th and above) since it uses them to tell how loud a sound actually is. But those harmonics can be masked from causing tonality if the 2nd and/or 3rd harmonic is high enough- this is why SETs seem to sound so musical despite having a lot more distortion (including higher orders) than any other kind of amp; the 2nd and 3rd harmonics are masking the higher orders.

Solid state amps often have much lower amounts of distortion overall, but the higher orders are not masked, causing the amp to sound brighter and harsher.

The most musical amplifiers are those that make very low amounts of distortion (SETs are typically 10% at clipping so they are right out) and that distortion will be the 2nd and /or 3rd harmonic, enough to mask any higher orders.

@invalid Yes, that’s true. But they advertise that pesky current thing on their website- take a look (and click on 'specifications').

Now lets do the math:

Giving the amp the benefit of the doubt, we set the speaker load impedance to one Ohm. Using the Power formula thus the Power the amp makes is the current squared. This amp does not make 160,000 Watts! They claim 6000 Watts into 2 Ohms, so the current flowing at that time is only 54.77 Amps... and if it doubles power into 1 Ohm (which it probably can do but not to full power) it would be double the current or only 109.54 Amps.

Obviously that current spec is something entirely different!! Most likely its 400Amps that flows when the power supply is shorted out for 10mS. So its really a measure of the capacitance in the power supply rather than the current that the output section can produce.

@atmasphere  There is actually a high end audio amp that can make 6,000 watts RMS into 2ohms the Dan D'Agostino relentless 1600. 

Two Futtermans at 135 watts each.

Altecs are 101 db efficiency, 16 ohms.

The can play twice as loud as I could ever tolerate.

see

theaudioatticvinylsundays.com

@atmasphere  , is it watts that drive the speaker?  (I know that if I put the + & - lead of my vm on the corresponding speaker posts. I get an AC volt reading which varies depending upon volume level.)  But if it is watts that drive the speaker, and every watt is equal to every other watt, what is it that makes speakers sound different with different amps?

I like the simplicity and purity of the SET. But I also prefer inefficient planar magnetic speakers (Magnepan 0.7 which is all quasi-ribbon because pure ribbons are too fragile). I let a globe 45 SET transformer couple to an 833A run at 1000 Volts and Hammond output transformers. This does not push it to high wattage, but easily drives such speakers well below audible distortion and is as loud as any concert hall.  

Thanks for your comment, but I am pretty sure I understand current and how it relates to solid state amplifiers performance characteristics. Sorry, but the article you refer to is so poorly written as to escape making any sense to me, hats off to you if you can understand the techno babble, with a bit of some kind of marketing. I am familiar with ohms law.

@ghdprentice I'm going with 'apparently not' in this case. The reason, which is pointed out in that article, is that current does not exist without Voltage and the two together make power according to this formula, which is quite simple:

1 Amp times 1 Volt = 1 Watt.

This means that if the amp can make the power, it has the current also. So it makes no difference if the amp is tube, solid state or class D.

When there is talk about current, absent of power, then its nonsense. For example, quite often solid state amps are advertised as having lots of current; not picking on anyone in the industry but I've seen '80 Amps' advertised many times.

Since Power is also (through algebra) equal to Resistance times Amperage squared, let's give the 80 Amps the benefit of the doubt and set Resistance to 1 Ohm. Thus the power is the Amperage squared. In the case of 80 Amps, that's 6400 Watts. To my knowledge there are no amps offered to high end audio that make that kind of power: Amps that make current beyond the power they also make do not exist.

If you think otherwise you are engaging in a myth. That is why I linked the article.

Anyone that listen at 113-115db are either def or stupid, or if doing it routinely maybe both?

If you are not def, is it then something you aspirer to be ?

Why would a music lover try to intentionally destroy one’s hearing?

As older we get our hearing for most people deteriorate and unfortunately for many it hinders their ability to function 100% in social gatherings and for some people they choose to redraw a bit from social life.

Also as it is now, there is nothing you can do if getting tinnitus which even is a much bigger problem.

i worry about the younger generation that blast music into their ear canal’s with in-ear headphones, I am guessing that most of them will have big hearing/tinnitus problems before they are 50!

He more the better.

there is an openness, a feeling like sleeping in birthday suit,

an ease to the sound, smooth, no clipping, no mumbled distorted passages, 

the amps don’t work too hard, they will,sail along n cruise control doing what they do best.

I’ve had small amps, med, large, and,now I’ve learned,when you want to my e air with ease, you need the,power.  
 

sure a 6 w with 991w1m will work, but when you want to rock, you,can’t. 
 

I have a bunch, and I’m thinking I use almost all of them. 1000 each in my Legacy IV 2 Amplifier. It runs the Legacy Focus SE’s Mains. 600 each in my 5 channel Legacy IV 5. It runs my Side Phantom’s and Rear Deco's plus the Center Marquis. All are Legacy. Not sure about the 4 subs I have. They are Legacy Foundations and have 1000 each. I invite folks over and we play video Concerts. I try to keep the system humming at 113-115 DB with my Tripplet meter. It’s better than a true live concert. The punch is unbelievable. Favorite is the Eagle’s Farewell tour. Just killer. We are 10 feet back from the soundstage. 65-inch Sony Q-Led does the video. System never heats up, and we always play the entire two-hour concerts. Can lay your hand on the Amps and they are barely warm. Sometimes we pause as I get questions about the system and its impossible to talk. But I USE my system.

Hi @atmasphere,

Thanks for your comment, but I am pretty sure I understand current and how it relates to solid state amplifiers performance characteristics. Sorry, but the article you refer to is so poorly written as to escape making any sense to me, hats off to you if you can understand the techno babble, with a bit of some kind of marketing. I am familiar with ohms law.

In the 70’s the power measures of peak watts and then RMS watts were shown to be grossly inadequate. This is when current came into the discussion. This is also when the first high current designed amplifiers were created. The first was the Threshold s series. I purchased the s500 after amp after amp failed to adequately power my speakers. The s500 would produce over 2.5 amps into 8 ohms and much more into lesser resistance. My next amp was a Pass x350 which would develop over 5.5 amps. This I found very amazing as I used an arc welder that produced 6 amps on constructing steel prototypes for work in the mid seventies. Anyway, through these and other high current amps I have used over the decades showed it to be a very positive guide to the solidity and resilience of solid state amplifiers.

I need 1 to 2.  My amp puts out up to 4.5.   Lots of headroom.

Jerry

From my experience with solid state, current was the primary determinant if the amp was up to the task, the more the better. From my tube amp experience, it is far, far less important. So I went from high current 350 wpc solid state to 70 wpc tube amplification and my system sounds so much better it is amazing. It is a high quality amp… I am sure there is a difference between 70 wpc with an inexpensive light weight tube amp and a good one.

@ghdprentice 'Current' in the way you describe it above has little or no meaning. You might want to read this article which explains why.

@jfrmusic If you need over 100 Watts to make your speaker really sing, you have a problem- the speaker might be criminally inefficient unless you are in a very large room. The more power you need, quite often the harder it is for the amplifier to sound like real music. Most higher powered amps I've seen simply don't, although they are pretty good at sounding like electronics.

Digital metering with a peak hold function is more accurate than physical meters.

P=I squared R or V squared/R It is hard to get away from the fact that current and power are extremely closely related. You know an amp has an adequate power supply if it doubles down to 2 ohms. 

There is no such thing as too much power. How much power is adequate depends on the speaker and listening habits of the individual. Since every 3 dB doubles the power requirement power requirements increase dramatically with volume. To get bass at realistic levels and depth always requires a lot of power especially if room correction is utilized, in the thousands of watts. 

Your speakers are not as hard to drive as sensitivity of 85-86 db. You don’t deep under 5-6 ohms. Big speakers like Wilson’s that are dipping into the 1.6-1.5 ohm range need a way more powerful amp even if they have a 91db sensitivity.

@bigtwin Your explanation was super helpful, thank you! It's why it's worth coming here....

Sanders has a vast knowledge I have some of his amps and speakers they are great.  As stated power is volts x amps.its the transients that take alot of watts.its the clipping that causes damage to speakers.it is well known esl take alot of power but big cone speakers do also. Some speakers are efficient that's why the reference 1 watt produces spl sound pressure level. As a standard to compare. There has to be some relationship to reference to be marketable.i have read some high powered amps don't play well at low volume but I have not experienced it. The class d amps are getting better and have alot of watts for lower price.they are put in many speakers these days.i like big speakers because I have the room.the huge watts bring them alive.i have alot of esl and planars from many decades.alot of speakers are putting ribbons in now.some of them have 32 ribbons each and require lots of power.paul mcgowen put a 1k watts each speaker into each of his irs v woffer tower they have 6 each colum.enjoy what you have and the music.stay healthy

@dogearedaudio 

My point was that I have seen systems so expensive, so complicated and striving for so much power and scale that they become unmanageable for the owner.  They're often difficult to listen to as well.

Point taken. But in this context we are talking about modern power amps/integrated amps that put out high-current, 300 wpc plus into a pair of small to medium size speakers. And in the case of Harbeth's, were designed/voiced for SS. 

Conversely, I'm hoping to put together a much lower powered tube system again when circumstances allow it, but maybe with some vintage Tannoy's or similar. (I owned a 35wpc Raven Audio Osprey that was oh so sweet sounding - I miss it)

No question both high-power and low-power strategies can sound fantastic when the synergy is right. 

Current and output impedance are important as well. Paul from PS Audio gives a good explanation here.

"I was using a 10 watt class A amp to drive a pair of Super Tablettes (86 db I think) in a 13x14 listening room with zero issues. So then I thought, "What the hell!" and put in my 2A3 integrated amp. Still no issues and the speakers sound great."

ProAcs are rather famously amenable to lower-powered tube amps. My first audio heartthrob was a pair of Studios with the little Cary stereo 300B amp I heard in a shop. I was thrilled a few years later when a friend sold me his Response 2’s. Thirty years on, with one set of replaced drivers and two sets in storage, I’m still enjoying them. ;-) I used 300B amps with them for years but the quest for better bandwidth and slightly more power led me to my current 20 wpc Williamson amps.

"You don't need walls of drivers and the only jousting with 600wpc is financial/spouse approval."

My point was that I have seen systems so expensive, so complicated and striving for so much power and scale that they become unmanageable for the owner.  They're often difficult to listen to as well.

I don't think you need that many watts to drive most speakers.  I was using a 10 watt class A amp to drive a pair of Super Tablettes (86 db I think) in a 13x14 listening room with zero issues.  So then I thought, "What the hell!" and put in my 2A3 integrated amp.  Still no issues and the speakers sound great.

Maybe my musical choice isn't demanding?  I normally don't listen above 85db or so in volume.

In the past I would have been afraid to try this combo in fear I might damage something.  But I guess as I get older I take all the experts' advice as they really are...an opinion.  And you know what they say about opinions.

This combo works for me.

Also consider clipping for tubes and SS is very different. (I'm running SS now but owned 3 tube amps and use a tube DAC now so I'm not trying to pick a side here)

Part of the reason we like tubes, is the distortion, which increases as they get overdriven, and is obviously part of the design/intent in tube guitar amps. 

It's Jazz Sunday in our house today, and something else I thought of as I play both analogue and digital albums, is the wide variation of recording levels. It's nice to have (virtually) unlimited reserves of clean power for those lower level recordings.

Lastly, I don't understand this.

with far fewer headaches and travails than an amateur attempting to joust with walls of drivers and 600 wpc

You don't need walls of drivers and the only jousting with 600wpc is financial/spouse approval.

@dogearedaudio   You are correct that Sanders is speaking about ESL for the  most part.  I listened to your attached file.  Very interesting.  I would suggest you could start at the 25 min mark as he doesn't really get into the meat of the subject before that.  Incredibly knowledgeable guy.  Kind of funny how many of the amps his own company produces are in the 50 - 100 watt range when 5 watts is sufficient for 95% of speakers and 99% of listening rooms (I think I got that right).  Anyway, a good listen for sure.  I liked his comment that we should all start by choosing our speakers first and then work backwards to the right amp.  Maybe that's why I liked the Sanders paper as I am running very large panel speakers.  Cheers. 

The Sanders paper is very interesting.  But one should remember a couple of things:

1) He's talking about ESL speakers in the main;

2) I think he exaggerates the frequency and extent of clipping in an appropriately matched system.

I would venture to suggest, at the risk of possible ridicule, that an audiophile in 1950 with a pair of Klipsch Cornwalls and a 15 wpc Wliiamson amp would rarely have encountered clipping and was probably enjoying a better musical experience than a lot of the power-eating systems available today.  In modern terms, I'll also stick my neck out and suggest that an audiophile with a pair of Vandersteen 1Cs and a well-restored Eico HF-87 will find a good deal of musical contentment with that arrangement, with far fewer headaches and travails than an amateur attempting to joust with walls of drivers and 600 wpc. ;-)

As a counter-argument to Sanders, I enjoyed this interview with amp designer Justin Weber, who essentially maintains that most audiophiles need *less* power than they think.  He also offers a very amusing and (IMO) very pertinent discussion about single-ended amplifiers:

@bigtwin thanks for the Sanders white paper! An excellent read.

"is an unltralinear watt identical to a triode watt? That’s a serious question, I am not intending to be sarcastic."

Basically, yes. But ultralinear operation has plusses and minuses. and a lot of those depend on the quality of the output transformer, the percentage of the screen taps relative to the plate taps, etc. You can get essentialy twice the power of triode operation (or more) but you also introduce stability and distortion factors that must be addressed. In a typical feedback amplifier, switching from triode to ultralinear operation requires adjustments in the feedback components to optimize the amp’s performance and stability. So a big question when buying a switchable amp is, does switching from one mode to another involve correctly adjusting the feedback components to allow for optimal performance? An amp oprimized for triode operation can encounter some serious issues when switched to UL mode, and vice versa. If no such arrangements are made, then one mode or the other is going to suffer. Often times, people with switchable amps will report that they tried the triode switch but didn’t like it because the sound quality was reduced. Or, they’ll report that triode mode was more "open" but the bass control was worse, etc. Usually these negative impressions are the result of the amp not being properly designed to optimize each mode of operation.

The Sanders white paper is excellent. The two big takeaways are 1. that transient power demand is far higher than we think or that anything short of an oscilloscope can measure and, 2. the recovery time of the power supply in responding to transient power demands is critical.

@immatthewj  Scroll up about 15 posts and you will see I pasted a potion of the paper and included a link to the full paper.  Sanders does a good job explaining the perceived difference in tubes and SS, and why many systems may be underpowered.   Once again, I am assuming he knows what he is talking about after designing and building amps and speakers for decades.   For me anyway, he calls into question all the members who claim only fhe first watt is important and that 50 watt amps are all you need.   Read the whole paper and tell me what you think.  Cheers. 

@immatthewj   I think that Sanders covered this question fully in his paper? 

@bigtwin  , I am honestly not familiar with Sanders or the paper you referenced, but is it accessible on this site?  What would I need to use (besides "Sanders") as a search engine to find it?

@immatthewj   I think that Sanders covered this question fully in his paper?  

Beyond my paygrade.  We should all buy and listen to what we like.  There is no one right answer when it comes to amp power.  As pointed out in several comments, which I agree with, there are many factors that determine the proper combination of equipment.  I can only say that with my speakers, a low powered amp is not that correct equipment.  Cheers.

@bigtwin  , is an unltralinear watt identical to a triode watt?  That's a serious question, I am not intending to be sarcastic.

@bigtwin -- I appreciate your points, but high wattage alone doesn't tell you anything about how an amp behaves when presented with a low impedance load of 4 ohms or under.  And wattage also says nothing about the other elements of sound quality. 

Especially since I don't listen at high levels (85 dB tops) I happen to enjoy my 20 w/ch (8 ohms) Aegir more than the 150 w/ch VTV amp I had immediately prior.

To use a car analogy, it is like focusing only on horsepower while ignoring torque, gearing, suspension, handling, braking and so on. (Of course, the same as with audio buffs, there are some car enthusiasts that will focus only on one trait.)

@immatthewj   Actually, all watts are the same.  There's a scientific calculation that defines a watt.  It's all the other stuff that makes the difference.   

👍 @immatthewj I did mention that and I think @curiousjim ’s dealer is trying to make Sonus Faber sound more like Wilson. I think he is trying to put so much fast current to them (and probably a lean midrange) to increase slam. These speakers are made to reproduce natural sounding music not to do shock and awe. I know it is hard to attribute intent to others. But I have heard SF with very high powered solid state amps, they do make them sound better to me.

As I think I remember @ghdprentice  typing, I have also read that maybe not all watts are created equal.

@mlsstl  I'll be the first to admit how little I know about much of this hobby.  I believe what Sanders is trying to get across is the fact that many people are oblivious to the fact their amps may be clipping and are under powered, and that their system could sound even better with a higher powered amp?.  I suspect you don't need to be playing at excessive volume to be stressing an amp.  I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the load the speaker presents to the amps has a lot to do with it.  I owned a pair of Acoustic Zen Crescendo Mark ll.  When you look at the impedance graph, that speaker is almost a flat line at 6 ohms.  Extremely easy on your amp.  My current speakers are the opposite.  Dipping as low as 1 ohm which is a punishing load.  Luckily my amps are stable at 1 ohm.  In summary, I found the Sanders article very interesting and will assume he knows a lot more about this than I do. I don't think it ever hurts to read the lengthy papers written by the designers and builders.   Cheers, 

@ghdprentice 

I’ve been looking at SF speakers and the dealer I’ve been talking to has mentioned several times that “These speakers need a lot of watts to sound good!”  One of the speakers I am looking at is the Amity G5 and he said that it needed 600 watts to really sing.  And I immediately thought of you and had to stifle a laugh.  He’s talking and I’m imagining you with 600 X 2 watts of ARC tube equipment.

@bigtwin -- the one thing missing in the info you posted is a reference to the listening volume in the room. Not everyone wants live rock concert volume in their home.

The other common mistake concerns the level of peaks above the average playback volume. People often think that recordings have more dramatic peaks than they actually do.  Digital recordings in particular have a max level that can't be exceeded. I've used Adobe Audition for years to edit all manner of recordings -- rock, folk, jazz, classical and others.  One thing I've noticed, in particular in reference to albums recorded since the advent of digital in studios, is the volume uniformity of drum strikes -- a common source of audible peaks in music. Viewed digitally, one can easily see that dynamic peaks have been limited during the recording process. The uniformity is is sharp contract to the variable peaks one sees from old LPs recorded on analog tape. Even with the latter there was a max possible volume that could recorded on the tape so limiters were still used so the average playback level wouldn't be too soft. No one wants the average level so low that background noise gets in the way.

@bigtwin Very interesting, thank you.

@bigtwin 

Thanks that was an interesting article. 
 

@macg19 

Yes exactly how I feel  The amp reproduces the peaks effortlessly. No sounds of straining or harshness.  The entire frequency range just gets louder with no over emphasis of upper frequencies A very even response  

That's a very nice amp for those speakers, congrats. Fellow Harbeth owner - I'm seeing/hearing similar results. I think the "low" sensitivity of Harbeth's isn't that relevant with well-matched, high-current SS power which is exactly what you have based on Paul's video (able to double power from 8 to 4 ohms).  

Even if our meters are not perfectly calibrated, there is no doubt in my mind that they are a very good indication that the amp is barely breathing, and having virtually unlimited headroom is a really good thing. Enjoy it! 

@macg19 

I have the C7ES-XD Harbeths 

What Harbeth's do you have?

@jfmusic, I’d often seen stereo amps displaying wildly different readings when fed mono signals. While it’s very true that the fault could lobe elsewhere, it’s doubt it is not more often than not that the meters are at fault. When queried about the meters, and when not being evasive just about every manufacturer has admitted that inclusion of meters was because they looked cool, and shouldn’t be relied on for critical use.

OP,

‘The difference in sound quality between my ARC Ref 160s with 70 wpc and 140 wpc is topology… one configuration is ultra linear and one is triode (70 wpc). What sounds better to me is the more natural - musical sound of the triode mode… what I am not hearing is any difference in dynamics caused by the drop in power. 

This is a portion of the text taken from Roger Sander's white paper on amp power requirements.  I found it to be very interesting and it appears to be pertinent to this discussion?  Take it away Roger:

"To see what is going on with an amp when playing music only requires an oscilloscope.  These are very fast (the slowest ones will show 20 MHz) and will clearly show amplifier peak clipping when music is playing.  A meter is too slow to do so.  A 'scope is cheap (you can get them for $100 on eBay all day long).  So you don't have to take my word for what I am about to explain.  Feel free to get your own 'scope and examine your system's performance.

You simply connect the 'scope across your speaker or amplifier terminals (which are electrically the same), adjust the horizontal sweep as slow as you can while still seeing a horizontal line on the screen.  Don't go so slowly that you see a moving dot.

Now play dynamic music at the normally loud levels you enjoy.  Adjust the vertical gain on the 'scope so that the trace stays on the screen.

As music plays, you will clearly see if clipping occurs.  The trace (which will just be a jumble of squiggly lines) will appear to hit an invisible brick wall.  It will appear as though somebody took a pair of scissors and clipped off the top of the trace.  That's where the term "clipping" comes from.

If you see clipping at the levels you like to listen, then you are not using a sufficiently powerful amplifier to play your music cleanly.  Your system is compromised because your amplifier will have compressed dynamics, sound strained, lose its detail, and have high levels of distortion.

The 'scope will be calibrated so that you will know the voltage at which clipping occurs by observing the grid lines.  If you know the voltage and the impedance of your speakers, you can easily calculate the power.

Power is the voltage squared, divided by the impedance.  So if the 'scope measures 40 volts at clipping, and you are driving 8 ohm speakers, you know that 200 watts are being produced at clipping -- and this is insufficient power for your particular system because it is clipping.

You will find that conventional, direct-radiator (not horn-loaded), magnetic speaker systems of around 90 dB sensitivity, require around 500 watts/channel to avoid clipping.  More power is needed in larger rooms or if you like to play your music more loudly than most.

The key point I'm trying to make is that audiophiles usually are using under powered amplifiers and are therefore listening to clipping amplifiers most of the time.  When an amplifier is clipping, it is behaving (and sounding) grossly differently than its measured performance would suggest. This is because we always measure amplifiers when they are operating within their design parameters -- never when clipping.  A clipping amp has horrible performance, so attempting to measure it is a waste of time.

In other words, we usually listen to an amplifier when it is clipping and we measure it when it is not.  This is why amplifiers sound so different than their measurements would imply.  It is not that measurements are wrong, it is simply that we are listening and measuring different conditions.

It is essential to understand that when an amp is clipping, it will sound quite different than when it is not clipping.  It is also important to realise that different types of output devices (tubes vs. transistors) clip in very different ways, so sound quite different when they are clipping.

Finally, it is important to realise that an amp does not instantly recover from clipping.  It takes several milliseconds for its power supply voltage to recover, for it to recharge its power supply capacitors, and for its internal circuitry to settle down and operate properly again.  Therefore, even though an amp may only be clipping on the musical peaks, it will not immediately operate properly at average music levels where it is not clipping."

I suspect that most of us are not aware of how our amps are truly performing?  I for one have never attached an oscilloscope to my equipment.  

The full article can be found here:

https://sanderssoundsystems.com/technical-white-papers/172-tubes-vs-transistors

Let’s assume the meters are not very accurate. How much off are they? By a factor of 10 so 10 watts peak? Or by a factor of 20 so 20 watts peak? And then we make the sound twice as loud (+3db). Now 20 or 40 watts.  Sill far below the amount of watts modern amps are offering.