Want to add vinyl to my system.

My .02 is this is all quite subjective.

I would compare the relationship of analog audio vs digital to driving stick shift vs automatic or making coffee using a grinder and a chemex vs a keurig pod machine.

In each of these, some would say the manual aspect offers benefits in the process and ultimately in the performance.

I am one of them. To me, manuals are more fun and drive better, pour-over tastes better and analog sounds better, but I fully understand that others will disagree.

be wary of anyone who tells you what you "must" spend in order to get good sound. I've seen some ridiculous claims to this effect and it's just not accurate.  Vinyl is a blast, I've never considered any of it work, and I have cleaned 2K+ albums with a VPI 16.5 unit.  I guess I just enjoy being around music, whether it is actively listening to a record or reading the liner notes while cleaning an album.  I think digital is great as well, I just don't use it when I'm "actively" (no distractions, phone down, laptop closed, etc) listening. 

Also, when people say "this/that/the other brand is junk" take it with a grain of salt, it's generally because they have some weird axe to grind.

It took a while, but I finally revamped my analog side to at least equal the digital side.  With an expense of about $8000, I got a very decent sounding rig.  Since I have about two thousand records it was worth the expense.

Agreed. My entire vinyl rig now (Nad C558, Clearaudio Maestro V2, Schiit Mani) costs less than a single Manley Chinook pre. I spend my vinyl money on good vinyl (although I did just send in my Hana SL to be retipped). 

I've come down from a VPI HW19MK4 with a Jelco 750 tonearm and a Hagerman Trumpet pre and truthfully don't notice the difference too much except for noise. But that's all. 

You don't have to spend a lot in vinyl to get sound you love. 

+1 @simao   

I am primarily a digital listener but wanted a vinyl setup for some albums that are not currently available digitally.  I use a Technics 1200 with an Ortofon 2M Blue cartridge and a CA mm phono stage.  The sound is very good my main complaint being the usual vinyl issues of surface noise and short playing times

@pindac

I am not attaching a dollar figure as the basis for ranking any vinyl or digital systems. I’m certain we both know owners of $2k systems that believe they’ve found the holy grail, and the same goes for those with $20-$30k systems. Regardless, with that said, how many people in either the high or low priced groups, are truly trained listeners with a technical basis for being capable of objectively evaluating the "better or worse" definitions. Conversely, I’m absolutely certain these same people, generally, have strong (emotional?) opinions about the the gear they like and dislike.

In my experience, I have found two digital players that produce sonic characteristics unbelievably close to analog tape masters. These particular redbook CD players happen to be priced at $10k and $20k. I, personally, am hard pressed to find a significant difference between these two players. Both players have a non-feedback analog output stage powered by a tube PSU. Speaking for myself (remember I’m using MY EARS), I know of no other CD player that has similar analog characteristics.

The vast majority of CD players out there simply cannot compete on a comparative analog level with well assembled vinyl systems, and that includes some $20k plus SACD players I’ve listened to extensively.....not saying they sound horrible, but they do emphasize all characteristics, GOOD and bad, of the traditional digital we grew up with.  As for vinyl, I cannot reasonably address  comparative price categories of vinyl systems given the complex required synergies involving, TT, TA, cartridge and phono stage matching. I’ve heard decent $10k - $50k vinyl systems. I’ve also heard plenty of $100k plus vinyl systems that DO NOT blow away the more modestly priced ones!

Lastly, as for your last question about digital sources priced in the $2k range, there quite likely are players in the $2k price range that are listenable.  But for as many entry level players as I’ve heard, none in my opinion come close to producing the sonic characteristics of the two players I described above.  (I hope to purchase the $10k unit in the very near future.) 

@jymc Can you elaborate on your Post.

Are you suggesting that it takes others $20K's Worth of Digital Equipment to produce a Digital Source that compares to a Vinyl Source of which value ?

Is your own experience that you have discovered a Digital Source for $2K, that will impress a group, is this discovery also suggested to be a rival to a Vinyl Source to which Value ? 

rsf507

and how much does a "great digital system" cost?  My impression is a $2k CD player/DAC might be great to some, while for others, it will take a $20k investment to actually be great digital that is comparable or better than crackling popping  analog.

I can only but agree with mijostyn.

I am a record collector from the 70s, have reduced my collection to around 1200 or so now.

I would not bother with vinyl now if strarting from scratch. I had a superb vinyl setup, kuzma XLDC, 4pt, Atlas, Ypsilon phono. Eventually my digital caught up with the vinyl, unless playing mint analogue albums or some audiophile recordings (still marginal gains) digital was as good sometimes better. Most new LPs are from digital recordings, it also seems a lot of the recent MoFi productions are from DSD files!

What this person said. I have a P6 decent phono stage but only couple hundred albums. But I have worked my digital front end up to where it sounds almost as good and sometimes better than vinyl. This is budget is where I must live.

Given the storage complications and the cost of new vinyl releases and even the cost of used I would not recommend the path. Streaming/file/disc technology only getting better. It is the future.

Note: Especially given what ROON has to offer.  Like walking into a virtual library of music at your finger tips. 

A couple of other turntables recommended to me are the Mark Levinson 5105, EAT C Sharp, and VPI Prime.  Any thoughts on these models?

@bwguy 

There are many good quality phono preamps/stages at many price points, so a budget would help us to narrow it down.  The Parasound Halo JC3+ or the PS Audio Stellar Phono Preamplifier are safe bets with lots of positive reviews 

You don't match a phono stage to a turntable! You match it to a cartridge, which you match to an arm.

I have a P8, which I love (make sure to isolate/suspend it properly), especially the RB 880 arm it comes with, a Sutherland LPS Insight phono stage and van den Hul MC One special cartridge. Lightish cartridge to go with a lighter arm in the Rega philosophy. Extremely quiet set up. Not looking for "warmth", just the details with a black background, good dynamics and set it and forget it strategy.

Best to find a local dealer you trust who will set it up for you and take the time to listen to what you want and not just sell you what he's got laying around.

For me Once is start is hard to back to digital .

the work only for first installation after that either enjoy it or go up the chain .

tweak or upgrade is up to you .so satisfying playing and listening too.

I have an old Empire 598, so I replaced the tonearm with a higher quality one and gave it a Nagaoka cartridge, the sound is spectacular, that platter weights 25 pounds, smoothest spin you can get, really brings the old vinyl to life. 

@oldaudiophile 

i couldn't care less about scientific arguments for and against vinyl. It's simply  magical (even with a P3), nothing like digital

Vinyl is alot of work but if It's a hobby as well as a love of music then go for it. Rega should be great at the level you are talking. Phono stage for a couple grand and you are good. Cleaning records is a must for full enjoyment.

Thought I'd add this ditty, for what it's worth.

After several hours of serious seat-time with a Rega P3 equipped with a modest Ortofon 2M Blue + MacIntosh MA5300 + alternately, the MAC's Luxman integrated amp competitor (can't remember the model number) + a pair of Focal Aria 936 + good, clean vinyl disks, I was truly impressed. As a result, I almost pulled the trigger for a Rega P6 with Ortofon 2M Black. One need not spend exorbitant amounts on a TT & cart to get truly impressive fidelity.

As for those who continue to proselytize the virtues of digital over vinyl, all I can say is I guess I have yet to hear a digital set-up that bests a comparably priced vinyl set-up and I've heard digital set-ups in the high 5 figure range, including amp, speakers, DAC and all that stuff. This includes CD players, transports, DACs, servers, streaming in the highest sound quality over Tidal, Qobuz etc. I tend to listen to my digital set-up when I'm entertaining guests, tooling around the house and stuff like that. However, when I'm in the mood or have time sit down with a good single malt, grape of some other fine beverage and can just sit back, relax and listen to my tunes, vinyl is where I go. So far, based upon everything I've read on this grand debate, it seems one has to spend a heck of a lot of money on a high-end digital set-up in order to achieve the same or, reportedly, better fidelity than vinyl. No question digital is quicker, easier, less fuss, more convenient, allows access to oodles of music out there in the great ether when you subscribe, of course, to a or a number of services and all that jazz. However, one needs to consider the cost(s) of those subscriptions which, to me, is just like tethering yourself to cable or satellite.

Clearly you have money to burn.  Lots of it.

Rega is a great choice as a "plug-n-play" deck, especially if you get a Rega cartrdige.  Their arms are engineered to work with their cartridges.  Anyone else's cartridge may take some serious work to get right on a Rega arm.  The Rega arm has no vertical adjustment, so to raise it up, you have to pull the arm off the table and use shims.  OK for your dealer, but you sure don't want to go there yourself. 

Installing a cartridge on my tables is something of a pain anyway.  Rega cartridges have a unique 3 point mount, which along with the fact that the Rega arms and cartridges are engineered to work together, makes installing a Rega cartridge on a Rega arm the easiest thing there is. 

Just plan on using a Rega cartridge on that Rega table.

I can only but agree with mijostyn.

I am a record collector from the 70s, have reduced my collection to around 1200 or so now.

I would not bother with vinyl now if strarting from scratch. I had a superb vinyl setup, kuzma XLDC, 4pt, Atlas, Ypsilon phono. Eventually my digital caught up with the vinyl, unless playing mint analogue albums or some audiophile recordings (still marginal gains) digital was as good sometimes better. Most new LPs are from digital recordings, it also seems a lot of the recent  MoFi productions are from DSD files!

I have a Technics SL1200G now which produces terrific results when I am inclined to play a disc.

The digital is from locally stored files, I found this better than streaming roon etc.

If you finally decide to go with Rega (TT/cartridge) check their Aura MC.

Plenty of gain and fully adjustable.

Going all the way Rega front end would be a really good choice.

I have been looking at Manley a lot lately, very cool design

Of course, I'm biased, and without extensive experience, but I played my Rega P8 with various cartridges through a Manley Steelhead phono stage / buffer pre-amplifier, which I ran directly into my amplifiers.  It sounded very good to my ears, but I'm sure many other combinations would be very good aslo. 

I would think the Rega's own amps must be good.

From what I have, Musical Fidelity has great phono stages

Audio Research PH8 (used) or higher.

I finally found Audio Research phono stages in about 1990. Since then I have been completely dedicated to them. This was a PH2. I then upgraded to a 2SE, 3, 3SE, then.a PH8, and finally a Reference 3… which I will upgrade to a Reference 3SE soon.

Each upgrade, I did lots of research to verify this was the best possible step. It has always been so. I can’t more highly recommend a phono stage. The PH8, was the first one that did not hold back my turntable. While later models are better… to me, the PH8 this sets the bar for outstanding phonostages. Outstanding sound quality, natural, musical, detailed, and Incredibly cost effective for the money.

Thanks everyone!  If I would go with a Rega 8 or 10. What phono preamp would you recommend?

Thanks for the nod, @1jafa. In my experience, depending on the record, a first pressing isn't always the best sounding, though is often the most desirable from a collector's standpoint. Leaving aside third party reissues, I've found later pressings from a label on specific records that sound better than the first pressing. For example, on the first Lynyrd Skynyrd record, I have several copies including an early Sounds of the South. There is some "nothing special" MCA reissue from around 1980 that sounds better. Why? Have no idea.

A lot of what I've been chasing are records that never had more than a first pressing and sometimes those were small quantities, typically offbeat jazz. So your choices are limited to the OG or some questionable reissue (if reissued at all). I've been banging the drum on Bobby Hamilton's Dream Queen, an unobtainium private label jazz record that is easily in the 4 figures. Reissued from the tape, cut by Bernie G. 30 bucks. The OG may still be better sounding, but at what cost?

Otherwise, thanks for the kudos. Yeah, cartridge set up is super critical. When I lived in NY, I used Mike Trei, the maestro. Here in Austin, no such critter exists so I had to revive my long dormant set up skills. I can do it- it takes time. Mike can do it in a flash. 

Welcome to the forum, btw. 

whart 👍

I'm not an audiophile but I am on that road, I have learned that the basics do make a difference.

NM, VG+ records only (not always as described through internet)

First pressings, etc. for best sound quality.

Proper set up and maintenance of turntable. I check over the turntable every month or so and recently found that the cartridge was off a little. Previous install of cartridge was off, so I adjusted and noticed a difference.

A good record cleaning system.

@arro222 

anyone who complains about "work" with the vinyl has no clue or a decent system

I have a 4K vinyl rig and a 4K digital rig. I would say they are very comparable with the winner going either way depending on the recording. I still enjoy vinyl more and wil say I think it sounds more natural more often that not. Just seems more special. Vinyl is absolutely a job though! Cleaning records and changing an album or flipping a record every 10 damn min since most of this new stuff is on double 180g with 2 records for a 40 minute album. That’s comparing a very descent R2R dac against the vinyl. Any DS dac I’ve had in the under 2k range vinyl hands down.

im with others. Have both.

Vinyl is fun for some people. They love the fussing, the cleaning, the hunting through bins of records.....the ritual. If that’s what you want out of vinyl, go for it.

However, consider buying used so if it doesn’t meet your expectations, you can sell it with little to no loss. Rega RP10...don’t expect it to get close to what your current digital source is. I see comments on this thread suggesting you upgrade your digital front end. Jezz, they must be unaware of how good your Lumin X1 is. That is one fantastic piece of digital kit. You will need to spend a similar amount of money or more ( $20,000) on a vinyl front end to avoid disappointment. Several years ago, I sold off my vinyl front end worth well over $12,000 because it didn’t improve on what my Lumin player could provide. If you are looking for that analog warmth, well most current records, sound a lot like their digital files because they have undergone some digital  conversion already. Now if you can find pristine old pressings that are all analog, that is a different story, but they are pretty rare.

@chocaholic , there is no accounting for taste. The LP12 is a cheesy construction with a poorly thought out suspension. I aught to know. I owned two of them. The problem was back in the late 70's it was the best relatively inexpensive turntable out there. Now It is so bad they have to update it continually. VPI? Makes one of the worst tonearms ever foisted on an unsuspecting public. They even tried to sell it without an antiskating mechanism for years. The turntables are a perfect example of form over function. The more expensive they get the more stupid is the design. It is a perfect example of someone who thinks they can make a satisfactory record playing device without any engineering expertise. To put it in perspective, Basis makes turntables designed by someone with a lot of engineering expertise as does SME and Kuzma although Mr Kuzma has this thing going were he has to make the best of anything even if it is a bad idea to begin with. The Rega RP10 is better than any turntable VPI ever made. 

I don't recommend anything from Pro-Ject's upper end. The build quality is simply not good enough for the money. 

Clearaudio makes some really nice 'tables which is what I ended up with.

I've got about $14K in my analogue front end including cables and isolation platform. I didn't by anything used. Full details in my virtual system. The Aidas cart is phenomenal. 

My local dealer who I trust implicitly is also a REGA dealer and he steered me towards the Clearaudio Performance DC over the P10.  

I’ve had the Rega 2.3 and 6. I like the $2500 MoFi better.

I like the Mofi because I am a "clear" guy. I like clear and concise sound without the rounded off highs and lows Rega stuff tends to hand out. That sound is not to everyones liking however.

That being said and perhaps going after a "blend" of clarity and heft, In truth, the Rega 3 is a superb table for the money and with the correct cartridge, it can come to life. I like the Benz Micro stuff from the Silver on up.

The Rega 3 of today is equivalent to the Rega 6 of yesteryear in my opinion.

If I can be contrary to what some here have stated, I do not find it a "labor" to play vinyl and do not agree with those saying you have to spend uber amounts of money to get equivalent or a sound pleasing to you.

What I have found that many of those who complain of vinyl playback being inferior, have always have had a poor cartridge match to their TT’s. The Benz stuff is superlative carts for not crazy money either. I have never liked any of the Rega carts even on their own tables.

Heck, my old Rega 2 was better than a lot of $3000-$5000 cd players with a Benz cart..

All of this is thru ProAc monitors which are neutral in presentation.

I’m in a similar situation, with roughly 400 late 70’s thru early 90’s vinyl and a Grado gold MM on a decent turntable / tonearm set-up but as much as I want to love it, I switch to Tidal and stream the same music and it’s just better…much better. 
I consider going down the rabbit hole to upgrade my phono aspect of my system, but just don’t think the investment, which obviously would be several grand, is something I can justify….for what, to get it to sound “as good” as my digital setup?

unless I think it’d be better…..not sure I’m down with that. 

I was just about to pull the trigger for a Rega P6 with an Ortofon 2MM Black a few years ago but then opted for a MoFi Ultradeck+M at the last minute, instead.  Don't regret it for a second!  Many of the reviewers I read prior to making this move said it was the best you could get for under 5K at the time. Actually they said you could get diffferent sound from several TT in its price point, at the time, but not better, just different. I haven't heard as many TT as they have, of course, but I think they are right. That Mastertracker rivals a lot of moving coil carts. Unfortunately, the Mofi has gone up in price since its introduction, probably because of all of the awards & recommendations it's gotten. Rega is a proponent of low mass design. If you go with a Rega, make extra certain you have something absolutely rock steady to put it on. Actually, that's good advice for any TT. Also, consider all the other stuff you'll need to "do it right", so to speak (e.g.  good record brush or air blower type thing, if you're into that; stylus cleaner; record cleaner; etc.). Yes, vinyl does require more dedication & work than digital but the pay-off, if you're willing to devote yourself to it, is in the fidelity. Enjoy!

Thank you for all the responses, you all have given me things to consider.  As many of you have asked, is it wiser to spend my money to continue improving my digital system, or venture into vinyl. I guess I want the best of both worlds. I have several hundred albums from the 70-80’s, but I would also want to start purchasing many of the classic remastered vinyl albums out there. So do I simply dip my toe and start with a more modest vinyl set up? I have a feeling if I do that, I will find a modest vinyl up will be inferior to my digital system, and will lose interest. If however, I go in with higher end vinyl equipment, I may even get more enthused. I have to think both style of systems always need improvements (better cables etc).

Need a ton of money to get superb analog, otherwise it’s not worth it imo

How many albums do you currently own? 

This is a very good question.

The best turntable/arm/cartridge/phono stage is the one having many Lp's. 

 If you just want to add a turntable for the fun of it do not spend that much, there is no apparent reason, decide which source would be more important to you. If you decide that vinyl is your choice, then prepare for it. Otherwise improve your digital one. 

VPI junk??? Hardly..! 

Opinions are like?…

@mijostyn You posted something I’ve never heard before….VPI and Linn are junk. Obviously I find this surprising considering their overwhelming market success and my own experience. Care to explain your rationale for such a statement?

One word.  Masochist.

mas·och·ist

NOUN

(in general use) a person who enjoys an activity that appears to be painful or tedious:

An Audiophile who can't get enough and in search of more.
 

. 

@mijostyn

+1

He brings up a very valid point. At this point in time without a huge collection of albums (I have 2,000 mostly in pristine condition and many of audiophile pressings) you have to put a high value on nostalgia or just putting the funds into high end streaming is a way better way to get to really high end sound… and it really is the future… and it will only get better.

I stream 95+ % of the time. My vinyl and digital playback has the same sound quality and cost (~$45K for each vinyl and digital ends)… if I vinyl was not ingrained in the last 60+ years of my life listening to music, then a $90K digital end would be better sounding than my analog rig or my digital end. So, if I didn’t have my record collection, I would not waste my time on it.

I’ll stay out of the gear recommendations part and make a few observations as a long time vinyl lover.

If you are committed to the format, your records will eventually exceed the value of the phono front end, which includes turntable/arm/cartridge and phono stage with associated wiring.

There are some pretty good deals on new vinyl being produced through Blue Note/Tone Poet and the Verve/uMe series from Analogue Productions/Acoustic Sounds. None of those are terribly expensive new and their QC is decent (though with vinyl, even the fancy audiophile stuff, QC is almost always an issue). These are jazz records, not necessarily "out there" stuff, but not "lite" either. 

Most new reissues of classic rock warhorses are going to be derived from a digital file which isn’t per se bad but you can hear differences between different pressings and once you dig into the "classic rock" field, you’ll see that there are multiple versions of some records that are highly regarded-- sometimes there is no "best" but different strengths and weaknesses. Older threads on the Hoffman forum where comparisons are made can be valuable (a post just saying "oh, I got this copy, it sounds great" is meaningless).

With used records or old copies (even if they purport to be sealed/dead inventory), you’ll have condition issues- these days grading is inflated as are prices on a lot of the more desirable records.

You will need a way to effectively clean the records. That does not have to be a huge investment, but takes some time to get an effective method that does not leave residue and doesn’t involve so much time or effort that it robs you of enjoyment.

Flattening is a hit or miss proposition- both old and new records can be warped.

I had enough records to justify the outlay for a substantial record flattener and it has been a lifesaver for me--since many of these records are long out of print, private label and very hard to find. Not cost-justified for most people- there are a few services that will do it for a fee.

Guess I’m just offering you a reality check on what "getting into vinyl" means.

I’m a believer in buying the best you can afford simply because, with care and maintenance, most of this stuff, except for the cartridges, can last a lifetime.

There’s lots of info on "bargain cartridges" that perform well. Trying to hear differences between turntables, arms and cartridges is practically impossible.

We did a comparison at @Albert Porter’s last month between two top dog cartridges- each mounted on an identical arm on the same table. Albert was able to switch between them, compensating for gain differences. The differences were discernible.

There’s a lot to dig into, some basic skills you’ll probably want to acquire in terms of set up and despite the fact that you probably can’t do meaningful comparisons in a shop, it might pay to get a little seat time and hands-on experience with what you are considering. Welcome to the rabbit hole. It is deep (though it doesn’t have to be), has some twists (beware of marketing hype and reviews disguised as advertorials) and can involve the study of history, how records are made, lots of minutiae, like decoding deadwax to understand which pressing you have to hand and other stuff that may seem like heavy nerdsville or an opportunity for exploration, depending on your interest.

Good luck- one of the best things about vinyl for me is chasing down old obscure records that I like listening to- not for collectability but for enjoyment. And the "hunt" is part of the process, once you know what you are looking for.

Bill Hart

You don't need to spend a fortune. Use LPs sound better than most audiophile reissues. Re: Turntable and Phono stage...just buy used.

Personally I prefer turntables that use a detachable headshells. It makes changing, aligning and handling cartridges so much easier. 

Get the best turntable and phono stage you can afford.

I put together my first analog system since my last system 20 years ago. I did so over eight months and learned a lot, but spent many times what I expected. I only had 150 albums when I set out to build a system. In the end I ended up with a fantastic analog and digital system, but to do so, I spent almost twice on the analog vs digital. If I include the next 150 albums, the difference is even greater.

Was it worth it? Would I do it the same if I were starting over today, one year later? I’m not sure. I started out with a belief that analog was a better, more musical reproduction. I discovered that digital reproduction could rival, or almost rival analog. So, the question that you might ask yourself is, what would your digital side sound like after putting that analog money into upgrading your digital.

Smoked or edibles? 😉

Thank you @noromance ,  I always type my finest work when I am stoned.

+1 @mijostyn 

@baylinor ​​​​@rsf507 have very valid points. Do you like doing your laundry? Vinyl can be just as bad if not worse. You have to get up every 20 minutes to flip the record or pick out a new one. You have to keep them clean. You get pissed when you get a warped one or worse, a noisy one. They take up a huge amount of space and weigh an awful lot. To improve on digital performance you have to spend at least $35,000. 

I play records because I've played them for 65 years and have untold thousands of them. It is a tradition that is glued to my neurons. I can not not play them and I am always amazed at how good they can sound. They are just as capable of sounding lousy, bad pressings being the usual culprit. Most younger people who have no records are better off sticking with digital and spending the money on music and concerts. 

My overriding point is you really have to WANT to do this because you love the medium. You REALLY have to love it to put up with it. If it is just to be hip and have a cool device you are wasting your money. 

The RP 10 is a great choice. Get a Lyra Delos and a Parasound JC3+ and you will have a fine record playing device. Stay away from VPI and Linn. IMHO both make junk. The Thorens TD 1600 is a fine turntable for the money. Up in the price range are Sota, SME, Kuzma, Basis and Dohmann. Cartridges from Lyra, Ortofon and My Sonic Lab are all first class with the RP10 tonearm.