Interesting conversation. I echo Lyra + meticulously cared for records.
I have a Lyra Delos in the Perfect Vinyl Forever lab that has to have 3000 hours. I have it professionally inspected and cleaned annually. No need to re-tip yet.
Lyra Etna Lambda, new as of last year, resides on my reference system. I expect similar longevity. Magnificent instrument, by the way.
Having properly cleaned albums is key to stylus life, on par with proper setup. But I own Perfect Vinyl Forever…so this may be the least surprising comment on Audiogon this month…
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High milage tires on a Porsche turbo…. now, that is a hilarious suggestion….
i went thru a set of rears every 4 K miles…makes a moving coil seem absolutely frugal…..
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@lewm I left out the 17D3 which as you know is not really rebuildable… i use that on religious holidays…
@grislybutter might not be polyamorous but he has a low hour Signet TK-9… imo a formidable vintage cart.
As an aside… Signet ( the high end AT ) required the dealer have and be trained on evaluating stylus wear with an excellent stereo microscope… ah the golden age…
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Thanks @rauliruegas . I always appreciate your insight. Yes, there's just no way in my mind that Slaw can have any cartridge with 5,000 hours on it, which doesn't need service/re-tip. My goodness that's a lot of hours on it.
I'll check out the Empire!
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Dear @jbhiller : I own ( still ) over 100 cartridges and I'm not rigth now not only worry about retips of my favorities and try only to enjoy it.
The Empire MC5 is the current favorite for the last 6 months in a row. Yes, it's that wonderful, overall very hard to beat it at any price with any other top cartridge.
R.
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Dear @slaw " for hours alone it needs a re-tip for sure. ".
Absolutely. Ortofon research said that after 500 play hours even the best stylus tip " start " to look over a microscope a tiny part of the deviation from the tip shape. Normally goos stylus can goes to 1,500 hours but is convenient for owners try don't go over 2,00o.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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Got the Nagaoka MP-500 in the house, installed and finally dialed it. A little fussy on VTF and VTA--took me a bit to dial it in.
Really nice cartridge. Still in break in. Wondering if the high end will open up a bit, as I do like air on top. Big, robust, smooth sound overall.
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My Hana SH is just fine for me, If I wear it out, I'll probably get the new Mark 2. They are simply that good. If I wanted a real everyday utility cart I'd probably go with an Ortofon 2M Blue. Under $200, no real bad habits, and if a guest or a kid or a pet trashes it, no big deal. I'd try a Grado, but they hum like a sumbitch in my VP Prime Scout.
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The cost of advanced diamond cuts are just as expensive, if not more expensive on MM cartridges. The Ortofon 2M Black is $633 and the Lvb is $745 or higher. The Nagoaka JPN500 is much more reasonable, about $250 to $300. I use Expert Stylus or Allclear Audio for my retips of moving coil, and as long as the cantilever is not damaged the cost is approximately $350. Some cartridges are a bit more if the cleaning and adjustment is more involved. I would sooner have a small collection of moving coils I can play and send out for service. User replacement stylus is not a big advantage to me.
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At least in theory, I like MMs for daily drivers, using a Grace F-14 with with the top Soundsmith stylus for the F-9, which is perfect for the F-14, too. I stocked up on these, so I don’t have to worry. I also have a Nagoaka MP50, predecessor to the MP500, set up on another headshell (but the Grace is better IMO). Despite these best intentions, I can’t stop using my MC Diamond on a different tonearm, a foolishly expensive daily habit!
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my daily driver is AT-ML180 running @ 1gf.. no fatigue, low dist., very airy sound, excellent for classic/blues/jazz/rock and even techno!
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Yes, I have a daily driver - a Lyra Delos. Sounds perfect and one reason I bought it was because of a manufacturer specified 2,000 hour life on the stylus.
Currently I have about 350 hours after 4 years of owning it- should be good for another 19 years!
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The rebuild deal was a major part of my initial purchase criteria.
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The only cartridge I use on my main table is a Lyra Kleos SL. I have close to ~1000 hrs on it now. I listen ~500-600 hrs/yr; if it’s anything like my three previous Lyra carts, I’ll easily get at least 2500 hrs, so 4-4.5 yrs total. Pretty good.
The new table coming in has a tachometer with a run hours counter, so that may be pretty useful down the line.
Next cartridge updgrade will likely be a Soundsmith Sussurro MK 2 Gold or Hyperion MK 2, as they sound fantastic and I want their rebuild deal. The high end Lyra’s (Etna, Atlas variants) are just too much dough for the hours I put in and have high corresponding retip costs.
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this is the kinkiest it will ever get on audiogon, firm no to the threesome.
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"How about a threesome?" Is what it might say. Cartridges can be kinky.
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that too, what would my cartridge say if we weren't exclusive?
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Whereas you can get in trouble for having more than one household, both financial and emotional, there is much to be said for polygamy when it comes to cartridges.
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I grew up in a one household - one cartridge culture. This is all Greek to me.
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I don’t disagree. I will say I’ve hosted my close friend/ music buddy here several times to listen for any problems then compared the same albums at his place on his recently upgraded Linn set up. He couldn’t hear any issues. But for hours alone it needs a re-tip for sure.
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There's a "boiling frog" issue with stylus wear: it happens so slowly that you don't hear the change. Once you put a new stylus on you realise what you have been missing. That Sussurro deserves a trip to Uncle Peter!
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I have been a religious listener on weekends for years. I average 25 hours a week conservatively. I've bought a few carts during the time I've owned the Sussurro and still haven't heard many of them. Mostly because the Sussurro still sounds engaging.
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This is a meaningless conversation because none of us has defined what is meant when you say a cartridge is “lasting” or has reached the state of being “worn out”.. In previous threads 500 hours or thereabouts was often quoted as the typical lifespan. These numbers are way higher but without specifics. At 2500 hours, what do you see under a microscope? Or even how do you keep track of hours?
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What are others doing? Do you just pony up ever year for a new $2k, $5k cartridge? Do you run lower priced, value carts?
My 2 MC Ortofon Cadenza’s (Mono and Stereo) are running just fine up to 2500 hrs (around 1600$ each)
My 2 MM’s to about 300 hrs (around 400$ each)
I did not have to buy any cartridges during the last 3 years. On average, I am listening to about 4 complete records daily. The tubes from one of my preamp will probably the first to be changed, not the cartridges.
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@jbhiller ,
No typo. It's been a delight to own and experience.
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I'll second the comments of @billstevenson and @willy-t. I've used Stylast on my carts, and my last cart still sounded good after 1200 hrs., but it was a '90s cart so I thought I'd try something more current. Bought a broken-in Lyra Kleos, and that's all I'm using. It's not the greatest tracker with my tonearm, but that's only been evident on a couple LPs.
I think with scrupulous cleaning of records, proper cartridge setup and stylus care, a stylus can easily last 1200 hrs.
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@slaw, I'm not trying to pick an argument, but I have to ask--Is 5,000 hours a typo? I have trouble understanding how a cartridge could realistically last that long!
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My Sussurro MkII has been my daily driver for several years, over 5000 hours on it
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@bdp24 My London Super Gold w/Decapod is backup to my London Reference. Give me Decca/London or give me silence!
I have a Jubilee for that purpose! And, @dmk_calgary , the londondecca.com shop is now working and taking orders.
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My budget is more limited than many posters here. I don't listen to vinyl a lot, but I do keep two different MM cartridges mounted to alternate between. I also prefer the more laid back nature of the Goldring E3 on some LP's and the more detailed, slightly forward sound of the Shibata tipped AT 112 SX cartridge on other LP's.
My phono preamp has MC capability. I am planning on upgrading to MC as money allows.
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I have had my Koetsu Black for many years and it sounds good as new, but I listen to my vinyl only a few hours a week - I have about 3,000 LPs but my Esoteric K-01xs delivers, since that move vinyl time has declined.
I did a bit of research and Nagaoka seem to have a following - for eaxmple https://www.hifinews.com/content/nagaoka-mp-500-cartridge and their styli are replaceable.
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I dicked around with a bunch of cartridges over my journey until
I enter the Lyra line of carts. Went through 2 Delos then found a Kleos SL open box and was completely dumbfounded
Once you go to this level and sound you will never go back
you should be getting 3000 hours from your carts with clean records and the correct tracking force
Keep an eye out for open box Lyras at Music Direct and believe me you will be amazed
goo luck Willy-T
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I spin 2 tables daily.
An EMT-MRB on my 948 & Cadenza Black/sSME-309 on my GAE.
I do have different Carts in my stash for both tables, but these are my daily right now. Both tables are outstanding performers in my system.
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tomic, I've got the SS ruby cantilever/OCL stylus in a Grace Ruby, AND I've got an MP500. Grace is terrific, could live with it, but MP500 is a bit superior, IMO. I'm also living with an Acutex LPM 320STRIII (whew!), a Koetsu Urushi, a Stanton 9981LZS, AT ART7, and a Dynavector 17D3. All but the Grace are mounted and available to use. Maybe that is why I have no problem with one cartridge wearing out.
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If driving that many miles, perhaps high mileage tires are needed as opposed to racing tires.
Car references aside…
The Grado Prestige Gold is a very good cartridge. The stylus is user replaceable. It’s probably not as good as the mega buck cartridges. If the goal is the lower the cost, this may be a way forward.
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When my cartridge sounded wrong, I sent it to Soundsmith for a look see.....he did his magic and all is good.....Ortofon Winfield
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I have a decca super gold. Love it and won't go to any other type of cart other than upgrading to another decca.
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@OP - as per another post above. Get a VdH cartridge - 2000 hours no problem and affordable retipping/rebuilding - in Europe at least - regarding retipping.
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My London Super Gold w/Decapod is backup to my London Reference. Give me Decca/London or give me silence!
I’ve been a Stylast user since it was put on the market. Last Factory owner/product developer Walter Davies was my first high end dealer, and a wonderful human being.
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Currently have 5 cartridges in the rotation. Just added a third tonearm (SME 3012r) so now can have a mono cartridge (Miyajima Zero), my Hyperion MR (that I would play continuously with no self discipline if I didn’t have other options) and a rotation of “daily drivers” including a Lyra Kleos, SS Paua II, and Hana ML. Each cartridge has a side counter assigned so I can track of my compulsiveness and try to keep things evened out a little. Everything album is Degritter cleaned and each setup is rechecked intermittently to optimize the sound reproduction to the current stage of the cartridge’s life…
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++++ for Stylast…. but i will not live to see the n= 30 proof….
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Everything should be viewed as expendable…especially tires and turbochargers…
Ive just 3 TT and 4 arms so my hours are distributed..two lead horses are a Koetsu Urishi Black and a Kuzma CAR-40… I don’t disagree that a top notch phono stage is essential but volumes have been written, ships launched, wars fought over capital allocation in music reproduction systems… find your own risk return model.
The NAG are indeed quite good but i prefer a Soundsmith RUBY OCL assy in a Grace F9… when i have to roll that way..
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I have four or five carts that rotate every month or so.
Works for me.
Currently using a Koetsu Black Goldline VAS retipped for me.
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If I was buying a new TT, or Cartridge, and wanted to go MM, (not MC yet or ever), this is only $299, an excellent sounding cartridge with the longest lasting MicroLine stylus tip on tapered aluminum, tracks 2.0g.
https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/cartridges/type/moving-magnet/vm540ml-h
just make sure the TT’s tonearm has a removable headshell.
At least compare other’s separation/balance imaging specs to it before you decide.
...................................
edit, just happened across this review on Amazon mentioning both the AT540ml and his intentions to try AT33PTG/II
"
Richard
Reviewed in the United States on October 28, 2024
Style: VMN40ML MicroLine NudePattern Name: TurntableVerified Purchase
I'm running the 540ML on a Technics SL-1210GR through the phono pre of a Yamaha A-S1100 and out to Harbeth P3ESRs. Comparable carts I also own are the Nagaoka MP-200, Ortofon 2M Bronze, and an original KAB ProS40 with an advanced Ortofon Fritz Geiger stylus. I also have the VM95ML. The 540ML has the best balance to my ears out of all of them. It's more open and detailed sounding than the VM95ML likely due to the better engine with four coils vs two on the 95ML. The 540ML also has better channel separation at 28 dB vs 23 dB on the 95ML. Some say the 540ML can sound bright, but it does not on my system at all. That said if you are sensitive to brightness you might be happier with the 95ML or better yet the VM750SH or VMN50SH on VM540 body. Note the engines between the VM540ML and VM740ML are identical. The only difference is the body and weight, so you'll want to factor which is a better match for your tonearm. If your tonearm supports both, then it's up to which you prefer the looks of. The Ortofons above sound great but they are a little more sensitive to pops and clicks. The Nagaoka MP-200 is a wonderfully lush sounding cart, while the 540ML is more neutral. They are tied imo, so which you prefer is just a matter of taste. That said, the 540ML is my all around favorite. Next stop for me will be the MC AT-PTG33/2."
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My daily driver is a Shure V15 Type IV with Jico sas b stylus with boron cantilever. I prefer it to my more expensive moving coil cartridges and my other MM cartridges.
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I find you can get excellent imaging and wonderful sound, new, for below $1k, and I also take chances on used Vintage cartridges, both MC and MM.
I asked advice here years ago, and finally chose a SUT FRT-4 and my 1st MC
AT33/PTG/II $460. new ebay
It’s my daily driver which I keep on my 12.5" long arm with fixed head. Based on hours played, I sent it to AT, they said worn but still good but suggested I trade it for a new one at half price, I will probably keep doing that, it sounds so good to me (and all my friends) that I didn’t consider anything else.
Very wide separation combined with tight channel balance gives excellent Imaging; it tracks at what I consider heavy at 2.0g, and it needs screws with nuts, I wish it had integral threaded holes.
I encourage acquiring the few inexpensive tools and practice enough so that mounting, aligning, calibrating tonearms/cartridges becomes an accomplished skill, frees you from dependency on others, which opens the door to further options. One tonearm with a removable headshell for a small collection of alternate cartridges (preferably two tonearms which I finally put together age 72).
Once you tie down a terrific phono stage, assuming one darn good cartridge that helps you do that, then you can truly compare alternate cartridges, I try to think ’preferred’ rather than ’better’, or ’alternate’ i.e. if you have 3 that are tough to choose which is best, just enjoy all 3 while dividing the wear.
My short 3rd arm is my best MONO (AT33PTG/II Mono with advanced tip on boron by Steve at VAS) ready to go, also fixed head. I can also use/compare to my Grado Elliptical Mono on my 2nd arm.
My 2nd arm is my removable headshell, easiest tool free VTA on the fly height adjustment (Acos Lustre GST-801) for actively changing pre-mounted cartridges from my small collection which typically are chosen for rare light/stiff cantilever materials, and light tracking, several track at 1.25g. Headshells allowing azimuth adjustment are desirable.
Prior Vintage in rotation: Sumiko Talisman S Sapphire Tube Line Contact ; Shure MM V15Vxmr body with new Jico SAS on Boron, undamped brush up or down; Shure MM 97xe rebuilt by VAS with advanced tip on Boron with Shure’s damped brush up or down; AT440ml MM MicroLine on aluminum; AT14Sa MM shibata on tapered aluminum; ATTR485U MM Shibata.
My latest and greatest used Vintage: AT160ml (on 150e Body) is the lightest/stiffest beryllium cantilever with MicroLine Stylus: combo yields light 1.25g tracking, largest contact surface, longest life, least wear, it’s a win/win/win that sounds closest to real than anything else I own. I just bid and won another on Yahoo auctions using aleado to bid for me because as soon as I fell in love with it, I realized like your post’s subject, it has a life span, and even if some expert tries to put a new tip, the beryllium cantilever might shatter if you look sideways at it.
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@lewm @dogberry , thanks for the vote of confident on the Nagaoka!!!
@awise1961 I'll check out that grado. Haven't owned one in 20 years!
@billstevenson I love VAS. I had Soundsmsith tell me they couldn't do anything with a couple of carts and VAS jumped right on them and the results were great. No offense to SS--I know he knows what he's doing.
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If you want to minimize use of an expensive MC that needs to go to the factory or to a re-tipper or to be discarded apparently, when the stylus is worn out, then it seems to me you want as a daily driver a cartridge that has a user-replaceable stylus. That means either MI or MM. Seems to me the OP is already on the right track with the MP500. IMO, you cannot do much better than that, in fact. But also remarkable to me is that the OP seems to be buying a new MC every time his stylus wears out (the criteria for which judgement are not stated), when in fact the cartridge can go back to its maker or to any good retipper for restoration, at a lower cost compared to buying an entirely new cartridge. Seems to me this is a tempest in a teapot.
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Wow, you flip a lot of albums. That's like 8 sides a day.
I had a Van den Hull Frog that I am sure I had 2,000 hours on. He advertised they would run twice as long as your typical cartridge... which the rule of thumb is 1,200... so 2,400.
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Stylast is used before play of each side at my house. A very light brush or two is all it takes. It extends the life of a stylus by at least 50% when used as directed. Another mitigating factor for me is that in my main system there are two TTs, mono and stereo. You might also consider SoundSmith because their retipping service is very cost effective. VAS is good too. Finally, as you have experienced already with your Ortofon 2M, there is nothing wrong with the better MM cartridges on the market. Audio Technica has some good ones too.
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