A current thread discussing the best tweaks gave consistently high ranking for component isolation. I am curious to know where all the vibration is coming from that we are addressing with isolation. I understand that high volume listening can create significant vibration, but for the sake of this discussion let's assume we are listening at moderate levels. Can the vibrations from moderate sound levels affect the quality of sound? Are there other common significant sources of vibration that we are guarding against that can dramatically affect sound?
The two obvious and central components needing vibration control are the
TT and speakers. IME, other component also benefit but the improvements
are more subtle.
That's what I thought too. That's why my first component to get Pods was my turntable. Makes sense, right? Took some time for John Hannant to talk me into trying them under my tube amp. When I did, what a surprise! The improvement was somewhat different but at least as great as under the turntable.
The difference was with the turntable the vast majority of improvement was in the area of resonance control. A huge amount of coloration, that had not even been audible, was removed. Every instrument sounded so much more distinctively like what it really is. Audiophiles love to talk about hearing the differences between guitars, all these little sonic signatures that tell you what is what. Dynamics got a little better, details, blacker background, all that. But the bulk of it was in the area of truth of timbre.
Under the tube amp this was reversed. There was a big improvement in truth of timbre, but an even bigger improvement in dynamics! That amp just seemed to come alive with Pods! So I kept going and tried the phono stage. Same thing. The phono stage was sort of in between the other two, a more even improvement across the board, no one area standing out like with the amp and table.
Now at this point I have already put springs under the power conditioner and subs,
about the only thing left is the motor controller. This has been on cones for years. This was also the least responsive of all my components, to all kinds of tweaks. They worked, just not nearly as much as elsewhere. Now with all these leftover springs I decided to try them and much to my surprise the improvement was about as good as under the other stuff! So I played around a little more, and now it is on Pods.
It may well be that my system is so much more resolving now than years ago things that would barely have registered are now as if viewed under a microscope. For sure Moabs made a huge improvement, but there's a lot more than that. Anyway, that is pure speculation. Only thing I know for sure, vibration control, when it is done at Townshend Pods level works really good under everything.
This brings up the question that since literally everything vibrates, is it plausible to posit that the higher quality the equipment, the more sensitive it is to audibly transmissive vibrations, therefore it requires more sophisticated damping than lower quality equipment where a more extreme amount of damping is not required to improve the sound as it has reached it’s improvement threshold?
Yes everything vibrates. But some will gladly play others by stoking fear and uncertainty. Including fear that some undetected vibration will negatively impact some audiophile’s sound. Once a fear of some problem exists you can then sell some expensive esoteric fix that nobody would care about otherwise. It’s how these things work. Marketing is all a game you know.
Everything vibrates. Our planet has a heartbeat also. Looking at one aspect is our AC power. It vibrates at 60 or 50 Hz a second. I inspect my breaker panel once or twice a year. The connection will get lose over time due to vibration. All we can is to keep trying to make things better. Lets all try and keep these forums on topic. We can all do better Respectfully Joe
The two obvious and central components needing vibration control are the TT and speakers. IME, other component also benefit but the improvements are more subtle.
My
thinking is this. The vibrations present in the component needs to go
somewhere.
Actually they need to be prevented from going anywhere.
The vibrations in the environment need to be prevented from
getting to the component.
Springs do both.
The component should be coupled to
something the vibrations can dissipate to. The whole thing should be
decoupled from the "world"
The idea is the component itself will dissipate vibrations faster.
So I’m looking to put roller blocks
between the TT and the base. It will both couple the TT as well as allow
for horizontal movement.
Then, I’m thinking either ISOAcoustics
pads under the whole thing, or, springs. So many sources for springs
around that can serve virtually any purpose, and are inexpensive. Just
need to find springs that are the right diameter (so they are stable),
the right height (again, so they are stable) and the right spring rate
so the whole unit floats. Meaning, the same force is required to "lift"
it as is required to "push" it a given distance.
IsoAcoustics have been compared to springs and Pods. Search around, several have upgraded from IsoAcoustics to Pods or Podiums. The improvement is huge. IsoAcoustics cost a lot more than ordinary springs but are hardly any better. Maybe not any better at all, if the springs are carefully selected and tuned to load.
You can search around and find plain springs on line. It is a tremendous amount of work, and if you guess wrong there is really not a lot you can do about it but try again. If you want to go this route let me know, I have a small selection you can probably find what you want. But I wouldn't recommend it, not unless maybe you just love doing things the hard way.
That is why after a few tests I switched and started using Nobsound springs. They are just as effective but a whole lot more versatile. They can be adjusted for just about any load from 20lbs to over 150lbs simply by changing the number of springs.
Nobsound work so well they are end game for a lot of guys. If you want another huge bump in performance then go to Townshend Pods. Whether they work best under the sand box or between that box and the turntable will depend on the details. Study mine, and by the way the top shelf is a sand bed in cast concrete with granite on top of the sand. Pods between the granite and the BDR Source Shelf isolate the turntable. Very similar to what you are doing.
@pekri good on you for building the box !,,,,, Let us know the results and refinement over time.
I just moved my Pardo LPS with stillpoints on to a 40 year dry Curley Maple 12/4 block…… maybe put up a picture in systems..next few days, listening results before…
also, having spent 35+ years developing, building, testing, supporting high technology systems, I find that mutual trust and respect betwwen mechanics and engineers achieves what neither “ camp “ can do alone. Attitude is free, results not so much….
Cool stuff like F-22, 787, F/A-18, SLAM-ER, Longbow, Wideband Gapfiller….the list is endless…..or seems so now, viewed as it were from the rear view mirror….
I appreciate the arguments against springs and I don’t really know how they work… but I went from spikes on my floorstanders to pucks, to mid- grade springs to expensive (dampened) springs and the improvement kept getting more noticeable. Springs really work @clearthinker
Just made a base - 3/4" mdf "box" filled with sand.
The TT weighs just shy of 60lbs, the base is approx 25lbs
My thinking is this. The vibrations present in the component needs to go somewhere. The vibrations in the environment need to be prevented from getting to the component.
The component should be coupled to something the vibrations can dissipate to. The whole thing should be decoupled from the "world"
So I’m looking to put roller blocks between the TT and the base. It will both couple the TT as well as allow for horizontal movement.
Then, I’m thinking either ISOAcoustics pads under the whole thing, or, springs. So many sources for springs around that can serve virtually any purpose, and are inexpensive. Just need to find springs that are the right diameter (so they are stable), the right height (again, so they are stable) and the right spring rate so the whole unit floats. Meaning, the same force is required to "lift" it as is required to "push" it a given distance.
Seems pretty straight forward...
If floating in zero gravity, and kicking your feet about (not touching anything) vibrations in your body are going to be minimal, all the forces are contained within you. Now, back on terra firma, and you kick the ground, the forces come back into your body. Very disruptive...
Given speakers are a source of vibration, what do folks think they are isolating their speakers from when they try and isolate their them? The other speaker?
Speakers sound best when they are firmly grounded to a solid base i.e. not isolated from their base. Best to spend the effort and $$ isolating other components from the speakers and the vibrations caused by the speakers.
Transformers vibrate, so it's a good idea to isolate individual components from one another. Stacking components normally produces undesirable results.
So now for the stupid question, We isolate the speakers, the DAC and so forth. Music is still vibrating the box, the parts, the speaker jacks, the everything. Does this also affect the sound? Why would it be different? PS Everyone, almost, like the springs. What about Herbie's products?
MC provides good information as usual. But what is he talking about in the rest of his comments? Airing personal grievances, paranoia? It has nothing to do with the subject matter in this thread.
Anybody else confused and tired of reading it throughout the forum?
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You’re doing great MC. If I got a beef, your the first to know it, not the last.
What's the deal with the letter to the work place or board of whatever. WTF that ain't cool AT ALL!!
I’m not confused and I’m not tired of reading it on the forums. Consistency counts!!
SPRINGS work, period.. It Smears NOTHING.. Try it.. It’s very inexpensive. One up from there is to dampen the spring itself spray them with a flexible coating or insert a gummy puffer inside the spring. One up from there is to dampen the top and base on either end of the spring, (a pod). This is not NEW, it has been around a LONG LONG time.
Horse and buggy and blacksmith come to mind..
It’s just been refined to use (with great success) on stereo gear.. The information has been out there for a long time. The way they look cost money... They way they work cost some money. :-)
So, "No it’s not complex" in your second sentence, and "Complex yes" in your last sentence. Who can argue with that?
Guess you’re prepared to explain electronic oscillation? Those dumb engineers using complex numbers - what a bunch of dummies. Or maybe you could simplify Cox and D’Antonio (Acoustic Absorbers and Diffusers) down to a few sentences? Or how about the modes of vibration in a square sheet, and what to do about it (without differential equations, of course)?
I’m in awe, Oldhvymec.
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Oh no it's to way to complex for me. As for the rest of the mumbo jumbo your blathering. Equate this.. Be quiet you might learn something..
My oscillator tells me your education has limited your ability to understand the simplest of things..
Life is very easy, folks like you just make it "difficult". Engineer that bucko! As far as dummies, yea I've worked with a few engineers that were really intelligent, they always listen to the ol mechanic IF they want to learn.
Now if we want to see what YOU'VE read, applied and is a tried and true method, WITHOUT the impressive mumbo jumbo verbiage "I'M an Engineer" chest thumpin'" crap. TRY that approach other than implying WE'RE to FU@KIN' stupid to understand. BUT you some how did..
Complex numbers.. LOL you just can't help yourself.. Most folks use their toes TOO, DUMMY. I know you won a local science fair in the 4th grade, it's been down hill ever since.
"I'm in AWE", good I do that to people, often from what I hear.
If there were any insults implied or otherwise that I may have missed, may I return them to the person they came from.. My plate is way to full of wonderful compliments, no room for jealousy ..
Please WASH your hand before leaving the Doctors office, you've gotten your first vaccination for "I'm smarter than you complex". Hopefully it takes..
@hilde45 - have you tired isolation springs? Like even the inexpensive Nobosound type? I have a concrete slab under my system, which is all on springs.
I appreciate this thread; I started the one discussing the best tweaks. Some there argued that the tweaks couldn’t be ranked; I suppose some will claim that here about isolation. This makes a certain kind of sense, if they’re all additive to affecting the sound, but someone who has limited time or budget would ask the smart question the OP did here, namely, "where all the vibration is coming from that we are addressing with isolation." In other words, what should be addressed, first, and on what is money best spent?
Regarding the question "Can the vibrations from moderate sound levels affect the quality of sound?" there is an unspoken and crucial additional question, "Under what conditions -- room, equipment, and listener abilities" is there an effect? Because this is similar to the question, "Can moderate amounts of salt affect the quality of the taste?" The answer will depend on what someone can notice and how they taste. Some people are trained to savor food, to look for certain attributes, etc. To them, it’s easy to notice "too much salt." Others are less sensitized or they don’t care that much; their focus is elsewhere.
In other words, vibration control is like salt control — it’s hard to measure without specific metrics for user experience and for the preferences of a specific user. The fact these elements are not regular parts of these posts lead to all kinds of disagreements. Pie fight! It's fun, but essentially it comes about because someone has asked too imprecise a question (perhaps unwittingly) and then been dissatisfied with the answers. Whereas others have taken the imprecision of the question as some kind of trap set for the gullible. Bar fight!
And of course if we are talking about adding too much salt by two, three grains, then the whole topic becomes absurd. Some measure of minima sensibilia must be provided to discuss differences.
This is why the concrete floor issue is a hard one for me. I have concrete floors under my gear. And I realize that concrete can transmit vibration of people walking around the speaker. But when I listen, no one is in the room and no one is walking around. The Townshend demonstration about people walking around is, for me, a red herring. It doesn’t dissuade me that there’s something good happening with the products, but the walking example doesn’t help me.
Do you honestly believe that I, and the others named on whatever letter you’ve received from some nut case had anything at all to do with it??!! Just because said nut case decided to use our user names, you truly believe that we all somehow got together and conspired to threaten you?? You truly believe that enough to print our user names on this thread as if we did??! Good God man, think a little. Get a grip. I had zero, and I mean ZERO to do with whatever it is you received. Yeah, we’ve all nothing better to do with our time than to forge a secret cabal against you. You are that ingrained in our lives. Ridiculous.
Miller again: "Putting the component on springs does not prevent anything from vibrating..." Boing boing
Precisely. Putting loudspeakers on springs positively ENCOURAGES them to vibrate. Under Newton's Third Law, the moving parts in a speaker will create movement in the speaker box or frame that springs will permit. Under Hooke's Law, the springs once deflected from their start positions will seek to return to them. And so on...boing boing boing etc.
Result: Rock and Roll. But not of the kind we want. Moving speaker boxes and frames = smeared sound and deteriorated imaging.
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